C8 shutdown cause has US Senators demanding action
02-04-2021, 12:58 PM
#181
Instructor
Legacy
The problems with Jaguars are not limited to the older cars. In 2011 I purchased a 2008 Jaguar XK convertible. By far, the worst POS I ever owned. The first day I owned the car, the heaters and defoggers crapped out during a freezing cold rain & ice storm (bad relay). The next day the battery died. Over the next 18 months, I replaced the battery four times. The convertible top would go halfway up and jam, then it would go half way down & jam. Then I would lose the battery again. The car spent so much time at the local Jaguar dealer, that I used to drive up there on Saturdays for visiting hours. Finally I consulted an automotive electrical engineer. He diagnosed the problem as an "aperiodic parasitical draw". I asked him what I should do, and he replied, "sell the car". Finally after one particularly lousy afternoon of trying to force the electrical top back into its hole behind the seats, my wife (after observing my sweaty bad mood), said, "Why don't you go out and buy yourself a new Corvette?". Two days later, there was a Carlisle Blue C6 sitting in the driveway. That led to my current C7, and now the order for a new C8. Never been happier, and hell WILL freeze over before I ever lay money down for another Jaguar...
02-04-2021, 01:10 PM
#182
Le Mans Master
Hmmm. I owned an intro year 2014 Jaguar F-Type convertible for 3 years and 30K miles. It never exhibited a single problem, and there was never even a drop of oil on my garage floor.
I also owned 5 Jeeps in the last two decades with never a warranty repair, and they are supposed to be among the worst in terms of reliability.
Single data points are worthless, and with regard to modern vehicles, even the worst on today's reliability lists are better than the best from 20 years ago.
I also owned 5 Jeeps in the last two decades with never a warranty repair, and they are supposed to be among the worst in terms of reliability.
Single data points are worthless, and with regard to modern vehicles, even the worst on today's reliability lists are better than the best from 20 years ago.
https://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/...j-d-power.html
02-04-2021, 01:14 PM
#183
Slim chance this will ever happen. Where will the chips come from? Cars are being designed with planned obsolescence in mind. Parts will not be available.
02-04-2021, 02:18 PM
#184
Le Mans Master
Fact. There is not enough engineers and cheap labor workers in the US to "bring it back" to the US. Some years back Apple talked about what it would take to bring the work back. There are almost 1M Chinese workers making Apple products and over 40K engineers. The US simply does not have the labor pool and enough engineers to bring it all back and that is just Apple. And even then prices would skyrocket because cheap American labor would be 2-3 time more expensive, and the cost of all these goods for the American consumer would skyrocket. On average you would pay another $75-100 more for your phone, computer, etc. In some cases more.
The answer to me is to spread the manufacturing out to other countries and rely less on China. Places like Viernam, Mexico, etc. All have cheap labor costs but you will still have issues finding enough qualified workers. Maybe India.
The answer to me is to spread the manufacturing out to other countries and rely less on China. Places like Viernam, Mexico, etc. All have cheap labor costs but you will still have issues finding enough qualified workers. Maybe India.
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David Spencer (02-06-2021)
02-04-2021, 02:29 PM
#185
What makes you think I don't have a C2? Also, to do what you suggest ('then buy [sic] and old car") does not provide a buyer with a full B to B warranty. Tech doesn't require Onstar, car play, navigation, etc. These are just creature comforts that have nothing to do with the operation of an automobile. They are put in modern cars and jack up the cost of a vehicle, they increase the probably something will go wrong, and they all are components within the vehicle that after a period of time will no longer be supported by the original manufacturer. When a manufacturer incorporates this types of electronic tech in modern automobiles they are building into the vehicle planned obsolescence. The aftermarket will not come along and offer solutions to maintain the complex software and hardware electronic systems embedded within the modern automobile. These system as exclusively proprietary. The reason why you still see C2s on the road today is because they are much easier to maintain and maintenance costs are more affordable. The chances that today's automobiles will be around 60 years from now and fully operational will be slim to none.
02-04-2021, 02:38 PM
#186
02-04-2021, 03:03 PM
#187
Fact. There is not enough engineers and cheap labor workers in the US to "bring it back" to the US. Some years back Apple talked about what it would take to bring the work back. There are almost 1M Chinese workers making Apple products and over 40K engineers. The US simply does not have the labor pool and enough engineers to bring it all back and that is just Apple. And even then prices would skyrocket because cheap American labor would be 2-3 time more expensive, and the cost of all these goods for the American consumer would skyrocket. On average you would pay another $75-100 more for your phone, computer, etc. In some cases more.
The answer to me is to spread the manufacturing out to other countries and rely less on China. Places like Viernam, Mexico, etc. All have cheap labor costs but you will still have issues finding enough qualified workers. Maybe India.
The answer to me is to spread the manufacturing out to other countries and rely less on China. Places like Viernam, Mexico, etc. All have cheap labor costs but you will still have issues finding enough qualified workers. Maybe India.
It’s poor trade policies that create these problems, not our labor pool.
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ArmchairArchitect (02-04-2021)
02-04-2021, 04:23 PM
#188
Melting Slicks
Fact. There is not enough engineers and cheap labor workers in the US to "bring it back" to the US. Some years back Apple talked about what it would take to bring the work back. There are almost 1M Chinese workers making Apple products and over 40K engineers. The US simply does not have the labor pool and enough engineers to bring it all back and that is just Apple. And even then prices would skyrocket because cheap American labor would be 2-3 time more expensive, and the cost of all these goods for the American consumer would skyrocket. On average you would pay another $75-100 more for your phone, computer, etc. In some cases more.
The answer to me is to spread the manufacturing out to other countries and rely less on China. Places like Viernam, Mexico, etc. All have cheap labor costs but you will still have issues finding enough qualified workers. Maybe India.
The answer to me is to spread the manufacturing out to other countries and rely less on China. Places like Viernam, Mexico, etc. All have cheap labor costs but you will still have issues finding enough qualified workers. Maybe India.
Just because companies have often taken the easy and cheap way out for decades doesn't mean it will continue happening -- especially if consumers demand that they stop. It's lazy attitudes of "oh, there's nothing we can do about it" that creates the problem and causes it to continue, to our own disadvantage.
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ArmchairArchitect (02-04-2021)
02-04-2021, 04:34 PM
#189
Banned Scam/Spammer
Member Since: Sep 2016
Location: Philadelphia PA (Birthplace of the USA, UNESCO World Heritage City)
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MMD (02-04-2021)
02-04-2021, 04:36 PM
#190
Drifting
Forget the robots. It is extremely hard, and expensive, for a new company (or even an existing company) to set up a new chip fab. It's just not as easy as spreading the manufacturing out - very, very, very few chip fabs are good at sub-10-nanometer finFET production. Simpler, slower chips using larger geometries are still hard but not as hard. Intel, once a world leader in this, has lost their edge to TSMC, and it would be risky even for them to try to set up a new fab to compete with them. They are trying, though, but at the same time are likely going to be outsourcing to TSMC as well.
We have a large list of chip fabs that we don't use anymore for our products, or don't like to use, because their fab processes do not have the refinement and are not able to hold the quality, reliability, performance and lifetime standards that many customers require for higher-end performance.
This doesn't mean that we, as a country, shouldn't try to be a world leader here. It just means that scaling this type of manufacturing across geographical areas is a long process, measured in years, lots of failures along the way, and billions of dollars.
We have a large list of chip fabs that we don't use anymore for our products, or don't like to use, because their fab processes do not have the refinement and are not able to hold the quality, reliability, performance and lifetime standards that many customers require for higher-end performance.
This doesn't mean that we, as a country, shouldn't try to be a world leader here. It just means that scaling this type of manufacturing across geographical areas is a long process, measured in years, lots of failures along the way, and billions of dollars.
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VetterFlyer (02-05-2021)
02-04-2021, 05:11 PM
#191
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ication_plants is a list of chip plants around the world. There are plenty in the US, just not the kind used in autos
Apple could easily make phones in the US if it were so inclined, and still sell them for what they cost now, they would just have to reduce their PROFIT. There are many Chinese manufactured phones that are near Apple clones that sell for a couple of hundred dollars rather than over a thousand. Apple sits on one the the biggest cash reserves ever accumulated by a ANY company.
Part of the problem is a stock market fixated on this quarter's profit.
But we digress.
YMMV
My 2¢
Apple could easily make phones in the US if it were so inclined, and still sell them for what they cost now, they would just have to reduce their PROFIT. There are many Chinese manufactured phones that are near Apple clones that sell for a couple of hundred dollars rather than over a thousand. Apple sits on one the the biggest cash reserves ever accumulated by a ANY company.
Part of the problem is a stock market fixated on this quarter's profit.
But we digress.
YMMV
My 2¢
02-04-2021, 05:15 PM
#192
Instructor
Factory clusures
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ication_plants is a list of chip plants around the world. There are plenty in the US, just not the kind used in autos
Apple could easily make phones in the US if it were so inclined, and still sell them for what they cost now, they would just have to reduce their PROFIT. There are many Chinese manufactured phones that are near Apple clones that sell for a couple of hundred dollars rather than over a thousand. Apple sits on one the the biggest cash reserves ever accumulated by a ANY company.
Part of the problem is a stock market fixated on this quarter's profit.
But we digress.
YMMV
My 2¢
Apple could easily make phones in the US if it were so inclined, and still sell them for what they cost now, they would just have to reduce their PROFIT. There are many Chinese manufactured phones that are near Apple clones that sell for a couple of hundred dollars rather than over a thousand. Apple sits on one the the biggest cash reserves ever accumulated by a ANY company.
Part of the problem is a stock market fixated on this quarter's profit.
But we digress.
YMMV
My 2¢
02-04-2021, 05:32 PM
#193
Suggest post this on 2021 SS thread for a valid reply.
02-04-2021, 05:35 PM
#194
Le Mans Master
02-04-2021, 05:44 PM
#195
Le Mans Master
02-04-2021, 06:21 PM
#196
Le Mans Master
I'm pretty sure that's just emissions related parts. I don't see anyone managing to legally mandate that GM or anyone else needs to provide things like obscure trim parts for 10 years.
02-04-2021, 09:42 PM
#197
Intermediate
Id take a car that I can easily mechanically fix and tune myself most of the entire car over these rolling electronics on wheels anyday. A vehicle is meant to get you from A to B, the same as the first car ever built. All else is literally completely useless fluff. I mean you could have every single add on you could pay for, but if youre in the middle of nowhere and your engine blows, then who cares if you have apple car play, autonomous driving and parking blah blah blah, its all useless.
This gen of Hondas remains popular with people because 1. it's cheap to maintain 2. it hardly ever breaks in catastrophic fashion 3. parts can be found easily when it does need work 4. they made so many that junkyards TO THIS DAY still have two or three in the yard to pick from (possibly factoring in here is also the fact that instead of lasting 10 years before people junk them, they've been able to keep them going for 20-30 years).
I bought this car for $600 and I have maybe $2k into it in just parts. That includes a full suspension rebuild and replacing all A/C components amongst other things. Sure it's probably only worth $2k or so on a good day, but if the worst happened and I had to sell the Vette, house, etc. and live in it, it would be running 10 years from now with very little maintenance costs and best of all, I'd have no car payment every month.
Everything but the power antenna works on this car. Did I mention I'm getting it painted Supersonic Blue?
Don't get me wrong, I love my Vette, but I love this one too.
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02-04-2021, 09:50 PM
#198
Le Mans Master
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VetterFlyer (02-05-2021)
02-04-2021, 11:14 PM
#199
Le Mans Master
Um, except the Trump responses here were directly based on the article posted by the OP, which included a mistruth about Trump causing the chip shortage. Any issues with China are actually long-standing problems caused by previous administrations that created a dangerous dependency in the first place.
In many ways staying "in" the semiconductor industry takes deep pockets--and if a business circumstance arrizes where the fab is not making any money this year, well you still have to perform the $1-2B investment so you remain relevent for next year. This is not a business model firms traded on stock exchanges can stomache.
Trump began fixing that problem, and the socialist press is confused, thinking that fixing a problem is actually causing a problem.
What the USA needs is 4 commercial Super-FABs selling wafer starts and tester time at a rate where everyone wins.
But NOBODY is pushing for anything close to this.
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CorvetteBrent (02-06-2021)
02-05-2021, 12:38 AM
#200
Pro
Let's go back to the old days. The hell with chips and China. American autos never have chips (unless we're talking about potato chips) in them back in the day. We are currently in a low intensity war with China. The situation will not improve until major industrial manufacturing production returns in its's totality to the USA. It's in our nation's national security interest to make this happen. Until this is done the USA will never have control over it future. Who is responsible for this situation we are now faced???