Red Mist Rulz

You "hear that more than anything" from C8 owners? Really? How many C8 owners have you talked to. I don't know any who say that, although I'm sure some do.

When you crack the encryption on the C8's electronics, you can make a whole lot of money selling that info to the tuners, I bet. At least until GM sues you. In the meantime, tuners are working on turbot setups, a supercharger setup, strengthened clutches and axles, exhausts and intakes, and more. Nitrous is available, too.

You need to get out more.

range96

No one will crack the code. Vendors are waiting for GM to release the code. Same deal as the '19 ZR1.

Red Mist Rulz

https://www.procharger.com/automotiv...orvette-c8-lt2

Jeff V.

GM never "released" the code on the ZR1. Nobody cracked it either. HP Tuners physically replaces the processor inside the ECU with one that has their own encryption keys on it.

The C8 is locked down even tighter than the ZR1 was. GM isn't going to 'release the code' to that just so a bunch of tuners can **** all over their EPA compliance and get them sued. They might allow some of the really big names like Callaway to build an upgrade, but they'll have to be EPA and CARB certified.

Avanti

Just what we need... more conspiracies...

NORTY

This is what happens when you get the "2nd Pfizer shot!"

Phil1098

With the architecture of the C8, it's way harder yet than even the ZR1 was. Not going to happen.

jimmyb

I've never heard that either...

LowRyter

Sooner or later, I'd bet owner's can buy something to screw up this car.

My first guess, since this car only has an auto transmission, that a hybrid module would be offered. Get electrical boost like an NSX rear wheels only.

Yammyhaha

"Zit"

Periokid

Animal House.

traind

I think this is right. Development is paused while they are waiting for the ECU code to be unlocked, not because GM is involved. Unless you include their software firewalls of course.

Quite a few people here are claiming that there are a lot of turbos etc.... but I think the OP is correct in the sense that no one is actually selling these kits widely. They are experimenting with them so we see videos, but when you go to their site they are not for sale. Does anyone know of a company widely selling a turbo or supercharger mod yet?

foo.c

There will be a tuning solution, it's still early.

Racer X

No, but that is not what the OP said. He contended the GM reached out to companies to get them to stop, a conspiracy, if you will. That is very different than companies not marketing a product that is not fully developed. One of three will probably happen. GM allows a select few the keys to the kingdom, with rules, someone does a work around like with the ZR1, or piggyback solutions. The more cars in people’s hands the more incentive to develop a solution. or people will wait for an OEM solution like the Z06 or ZR1 type cars.

range96

I was under the impression that GM, for a fee, released the encryption code so tuners could modify the tables. Or is it that GM is selling an 'unlocked' ECU?
Regardless of how it is done, could it be done without GM's blessing? I thought the extra licensing fee is what GM requires.

I'm all ears.

jimmyb

Everyone in this thread that either got the movie WRONG or didn't know the quote IS on double secret probation...

1941? Surely you can't be serious....















**See what I did there***

Red Mist Rulz

Sometime after the reveal, GM indicated it would "work with" aftermarket performance companies to allow modifications to the car. To date, no company has reported getting that information from GM. And I suspect that if and when GM decides to do that, it will come with lots of requirements. GM will not likely release the actual encryption keys for security reasons. Instead, they'll probably require the companies to buy the equipment necessary to change the tables from GM, keeping the actual encryption keys hidden. And they will likely require the companies to certify the mods still meet EPA requirements. And I wouldn't be surprised if they require the companies to provide an engine / drivetrain warranty to replace GM's. Only the big players will qualify and be able to afford to do so. Callaway, Lingenfelter, and a very few others.

Can it be done without GM's blessing? Given the level of encryption GM is using, doubtful, unless someone turns Google's Quantum computer to the task.

Jeff V.

That's not how it works. They *may* have done that for someone like Callaway, who they have an official partnership with. But in general, it's up to people finding backdoor methods to get into the ECUs and enable programming.

This is *way* simplified, and it's still a bit long winded.

There are two levels to this. Security, and the actual software. The software tells the ECU when and how to do things. Inject fuel, fire a spark, etc. Figuring that out without some kind of inside knowledge is very time consuming, but it's not some great mystery. Engines and engine controls all generally work on the same theories and newer ECUs are evolutions of older units. Apparently there was a big leap in how the software worked on the LS1 engines, which is why they took longer to figure out. But the problem with LS1 was never security. It was figuring out the new software.

The security is where the problem is. Older GM ECUs had pathetically bad security. They made it a bit harder in 2017, but there were still ways around it. The important thing to note is, once you're through that front door, there are no additional security checks that run. Once you can successfully load your own customized software (your tune) you've won.

GM started cracking down with the L5P diesels and the ZR1. They started using cryptographically signed code. I could make a whole thread on just that, but I'll try to sum it up here. GM signs the code with a private key that only they have. Each ECU has a copy of the public keys used to verify that signature. Having the public keys does not allow you do sign new code. It just allows you to verify that it was signed by a trusted source. If the signature check doesn't pass, the ECU refuses to run the code.

There was a back door on the L5P ECUs that allowed you to replace the public keys with your own, and those new keys would then verify code you signed with your own new private key.

ZR1 didn't have this back door. Once the keys are programmed at the factory, they're no longer accessible by any means. The only way to override them is to open the ECU up and replace the entire chip with one that has your own keys. As complicated as that is, it still has the same weakness as before. Once you get past the first layer of security, there's nothing else that validates the code.

It looks like the C8, and GMs whole new digital vehicle architecture, closes this hole. I don't know this for a fact, but it's the most likely answer based on the tiny amount of technical detail that's in the public domain. Other modules in the car do signature checks against the ECU (and probably the TCU and anything else tied to the powertrain). So now the "ZR1 fix" doesn't work. Replacing the chip lets you run your own code, but now the other modules in the car reject your ECU like a failed organ transplant. Now you have to crack the ECU, the TCU, the serial data gateway, and who knows how many other modules in the car. It turns into a very difficult and expensive task.

You can give up on the idea that some rogue employee could leak the keys too. It's unlikely that anyone at GM, at any level, even has the keys to begin with. The most likely scenario is that the keys were generated on some server and saved in a way that they're not accessible to anyone without an extraordinarily high level of access. If someone needs to sign new code for release, they submit the code to the server, the server signs it, and then returns the signed code without the engineer ever having had access to the actual keys.

Anyone who says "the smart people will figure it out" are only showing how little they know about this topic. This is the same kind of technology that protects your online banking and shopping. Anyone who knows a way to break this technology would be going after financial transactions instead of silly car stuff.

23/C8Z

I don't see it that way.

In the past even the earlier years of C7 you could hack the ecm and make adjustments change a cam etc and get the most out of it.

The solutions thus far are not as reliable as they were because the ecm is still untouched and the piggyback are hit or miss.

Every youtuber I have seen has complained about it. And the performance shops with them don't (obviously) but from a customer stand point I would not want to go deep into one knowing its a funny code away from. Limp. Shut down restart and the hassle. If nobody here has ever owned and driven a project car? It sucks. The constant "is it doing it again?" Or about to gets old.

Racer X

A lot of great information on the complexity and security. I do have questions of clarification if you know, if not maybe someone else does. My understanding is that the tuner software and the tuning that gets doesn't really change the programming, but rather adjusts data and data tables. The actual code of how it commands say an injector doesn't change. The prior generation had a ton of "switches" which was information on the number of cylinders, was it a manual, or automatic, or turbocharged, or supercharged, etc. The program then went through the appropriate branch logic to know what to do, then there data tables for spark advance, injector pulse with etc. . The data tables were changed to account for whatever was done to the engine. I don't know that the branching and logic was ever really changed only the switch data and data tables.

Changing the logic, could brick the ECU, bad data tables can destroy the engine.