PSA: It was a pre-production C8
10-17-2019, 05:18 PM
#41
So you’re saying that on the first shot out the door, you were three-quarters right on guessing what your prospects wanted? Sort of like the release of the C8, according to some of the critics here...
10-18-2019, 02:11 PM
#42
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Jul 2000
Location: North Dallas 40 TX
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Maybe thats the issue.. The Engineer is there to design and make what drivers want with the budget they are given. Of course they have input but its the test drivers that I want happy. It looks like Chevy's test drivers think and feel different then some of the others outside. OR, it goes back to them releasing incomplete test vehicles. Either way there is a disconnect somewhere.
First impressions are very important...When I was first tested I took time to prep myself....showered did push ups, combed hair, sprayed BRUT(women love it)...
First impressions are very important...When I was first tested I took time to prep myself....showered did push ups, combed hair, sprayed BRUT(women love it)...
10-18-2019, 08:29 PM
#43
It had "infuriating, plowing understeer", which turned into an "uncatchable oversteer spin" when they tried to correct it with power and went slightly over.
You, sir, should be the one trying to excuse GM for turning the main advantage of the Corvette (class leading handling on C5/C6/C7) into a huge liability, with journalists using language like "infuriating understeer" and "plowing understeer".
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PurpleLion (10-28-2019)
10-18-2019, 08:47 PM
#44
Here is an interesting take on that lap. Worth the read.
https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/20...hey-are-wrong/
https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/20...hey-are-wrong/
That article and Matt Farah's opinion AND a subway token will get you past the turnstiles on to the subway .....
(a NYC street comment meaning they are worth nothing, since the token will get you past the turnstiles regardless)
10-19-2019, 09:29 AM
#45
Race Director
Can someone link the MT article where Randy tested the same car with Pilot Super Sports and Pilot Sport 4S's????
10-19-2019, 09:30 AM
#46
Le Mans Master
10-19-2019, 09:36 AM
#47
Melting Slicks
Do what Ferrari and others have done. Have different cars for the test to help the numbers.,
https://jalopnik.com/how-ferrari-spins-5760248
Chris Harris
I told the blokes here at Jalopnik I was pissed at Ferrari and wanted to tell a few people. They said I could do it here. Stay with me, this might take a while.
I think it started in 2007 when I heard that Ferrari wanted to know which test track we were going to use for Autocar's 599 GTB road test, but in reality the rot had set in many years earlier. Why would it want to know that? "Because," said the man from the Autocar office, "The factory now has to send a test team to the circuit we chose so that they can optimize the car to get the best performance from it." They duly went to the track, tested for a day, crashed the car, went back to the factory to mend the car, returned, tested and then invited us to drive this "standard" 599. They must have been having a laugh.
Sad to say it, but the ecstasy of driving a new Ferrari is now almost always eradicated by the pain of dealing with the organization. Why am I bothering to tell you this? Because I'm pissed with the whole thing now. It's gotten out of control; to the point that it will soon be pointless believing anything you read about its cars through the usual channels, because the only way you get access is playing by its rules.
https://jalopnik.com/how-ferrari-spins-5760248
Chris Harris
I told the blokes here at Jalopnik I was pissed at Ferrari and wanted to tell a few people. They said I could do it here. Stay with me, this might take a while.
I think it started in 2007 when I heard that Ferrari wanted to know which test track we were going to use for Autocar's 599 GTB road test, but in reality the rot had set in many years earlier. Why would it want to know that? "Because," said the man from the Autocar office, "The factory now has to send a test team to the circuit we chose so that they can optimize the car to get the best performance from it." They duly went to the track, tested for a day, crashed the car, went back to the factory to mend the car, returned, tested and then invited us to drive this "standard" 599. They must have been having a laugh.
Sad to say it, but the ecstasy of driving a new Ferrari is now almost always eradicated by the pain of dealing with the organization. Why am I bothering to tell you this? Because I'm pissed with the whole thing now. It's gotten out of control; to the point that it will soon be pointless believing anything you read about its cars through the usual channels, because the only way you get access is playing by its rules.
Last edited by fasttoys; 10-19-2019 at 09:38 AM.
10-19-2019, 09:37 AM
#48
Race Director
^^^^
Thanks. I am unclear if this was "new tire verses new tire" and the article isn't clear. The only way this is definitive is they used 2 new sets of tires, run laps with one set, come in and mount the 2nd set and do it again. I don't think that's what happened.
Thanks. I am unclear if this was "new tire verses new tire" and the article isn't clear. The only way this is definitive is they used 2 new sets of tires, run laps with one set, come in and mount the 2nd set and do it again. I don't think that's what happened.
10-19-2019, 09:44 AM
#49
Le Mans Master
From a logical standpoint tire technology continues to evolve and improve. I have no reason to think that Michelin was not able to improve the PSS tire when they rolled out the PS4S. Otherwise why would they spend all the money on R&D, testing, etc?
10-19-2019, 10:05 AM
#50
Race Director
^^^^
I agree that Michelin didn't do it for the exercise. But 1.4 seconds is an ETERNITY. Going back 7 or 8 years, that was the difference between the Goodyear runflats and the MPSS.
I agree that Michelin didn't do it for the exercise. But 1.4 seconds is an ETERNITY. Going back 7 or 8 years, that was the difference between the Goodyear runflats and the MPSS.
10-19-2019, 10:08 AM
#51
Race Director
Any time you introduce that much driver variable into a test — somebody who cannot best a Spec Miata around Grattan in a C7 Corvette Z51 by more than a second — I think that casts the validity of the test in doubt. I will give C/D credit for actually putting a timed lap on record, which a lot of mags are hesitant to do, but I can’t say that they’ve gotten anything close to the true potential of either of these cars on track.
However, let’s assume that His Holiness Juan Pablo (Montoya) himself was behind the wheel for these laps. The C7 in this test was wearing Michelin Pilot Super Sports, which are a fine tire if you happen to find yourself in an Avengers: Endgame type of time heist in the year 2012. The C8 was shod (when does one use the word “shod” other than discussing tires?) with Michelin Pilot Sport 4 S, which are about six years newer tech. I hate linking to Motor Trend, but here’s an example of how putting the Pilot Sport 4 S on a car previously equipped with Pilot Super Sports can affect lap times. MT found an improvement of 1.44 seconds per lap with the PS4S over a circuit of very similar length to Grattan, not to mention improved braking, acceleration, and lateral grip. I have the PS4S on my own Focus RS, and was able to take second place at the SCCA Time Trials Nationals in 2018 with them, competing against cars equipped with trackday-special tires like the Bridgestone RE-71R. In other words, the PS4S would easily be worth the delta in time between then C7 and the C8 in C/D’s test.
Therefore, one can rightfully make the assumption that a C7, equipped with modern tires, would absolutely be just as fast and potentially faster than the C8. Keep in mind, we are not talking about a suspension modification, or an engine tune — we are talking about replacing the OEM tires with another set of tires that happen to be the most popular tire for the C7 sold on tirerack.com.
However, let’s assume that His Holiness Juan Pablo (Montoya) himself was behind the wheel for these laps. The C7 in this test was wearing Michelin Pilot Super Sports, which are a fine tire if you happen to find yourself in an Avengers: Endgame type of time heist in the year 2012. The C8 was shod (when does one use the word “shod” other than discussing tires?) with Michelin Pilot Sport 4 S, which are about six years newer tech. I hate linking to Motor Trend, but here’s an example of how putting the Pilot Sport 4 S on a car previously equipped with Pilot Super Sports can affect lap times. MT found an improvement of 1.44 seconds per lap with the PS4S over a circuit of very similar length to Grattan, not to mention improved braking, acceleration, and lateral grip. I have the PS4S on my own Focus RS, and was able to take second place at the SCCA Time Trials Nationals in 2018 with them, competing against cars equipped with trackday-special tires like the Bridgestone RE-71R. In other words, the PS4S would easily be worth the delta in time between then C7 and the C8 in C/D’s test.
Therefore, one can rightfully make the assumption that a C7, equipped with modern tires, would absolutely be just as fast and potentially faster than the C8. Keep in mind, we are not talking about a suspension modification, or an engine tune — we are talking about replacing the OEM tires with another set of tires that happen to be the most popular tire for the C7 sold on tirerack.com.
And to be clear.. i am not a fan of ME design.. i like a GT touring car but love(d) the corvettes because of that GT tour adaptability... I cannot stand the look of this gen and hope it flies by as i'm of that mindset that this will be like C5 to C6 (fan of the C6 looks... C5 was a bit funny looking to me, albeit BETTER than the 20yr run of the C4s)...
I've sat in both seats of every model and trim of this car and love the quality inside (not the button wall which is so dumb to me)..
ANY C8 FAN before the reviews should be happy with the results.. god stop complaining...
And has ANYONE heard from "JVP"?? dying to hear what his take is on the handling of the new car and if he still believes that the C8 Z51 will outrun a C7 GS..
Last edited by 23/C8Z; 10-19-2019 at 10:13 AM.
10-21-2019, 07:43 PM
#52
here's the good news for any corvette lover.... The first run at this new platform is STILL as fast OR faster than the BEST front engine Corvette ever designed... that should be enough to satisfy any fan but NO... some of you guys wanted the "base C8 Z51" to out run everything sans a ZR1 before it. Well, according to these tests (of which i hold little faith until someone like Brooks from Drag Times or others get their hands on them and post vbox and dragy results) the new C8 Z51 is quicker from ZERO to 60 than all before it... the rest? well 495hp and 470tq will only take you so far... but the car and engineering team, must be scratching their heads thinking what do these people want for 65k????????????
I, and many others here, are interested in a driving a car with communicative steering, excellent brake pedal feel, and superb handling with great lateral grip and adjustability as we approach the limit. That is the full measure of a sports car. That is what makes you feel accomplished.
Not pointing the car straight, smashing the gas and letting the computers take you to 60MPH where you keep one foot and two hands completely stationary through the process, and use a grand total of 5 neurons to perform the task.
Last edited by baron95; 10-24-2019 at 01:41 PM.
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PurpleLion (10-28-2019)
10-22-2019, 03:35 PM
#53
Melting Slicks
Glad I’m keeping my C7 another couple of more years till the C8 is baked and ready to come out of the oven.
10-22-2019, 04:13 PM
#54
Do they provide tin foil hats with a purchase of a new Corvette? :P
Going back to the OP, if the VIN was #19 then the car wasn't preproduction. Early production for sure, but not technically what would still be considered preproduction any more.
PR/Communications 101 - don't give a car to journalists for testing if you aren't completely satisfied with how it will perform. It is up to GM what they loan out. Maybe another six months of development time would have helped dial some more understeer out, but I'm guessing they needed to get this to market. Good news is with the Z51 they can flash new updates to software that may help improve things over time. For the tinkers and track guys, they know what they need to do to improve things.
In the end the C8 Stingray is still pretty far up there in the sports car world as far as numbers go. Will it improve over time? Absolutely. Will they sell lots of them to happy customers? Yup. I don't understand what all the bickering is about.
Going back to the OP, if the VIN was #19 then the car wasn't preproduction. Early production for sure, but not technically what would still be considered preproduction any more.
PR/Communications 101 - don't give a car to journalists for testing if you aren't completely satisfied with how it will perform. It is up to GM what they loan out. Maybe another six months of development time would have helped dial some more understeer out, but I'm guessing they needed to get this to market. Good news is with the Z51 they can flash new updates to software that may help improve things over time. For the tinkers and track guys, they know what they need to do to improve things.
In the end the C8 Stingray is still pretty far up there in the sports car world as far as numbers go. Will it improve over time? Absolutely. Will they sell lots of them to happy customers? Yup. I don't understand what all the bickering is about.
10-22-2019, 04:23 PM
#55
I'm sorry but if GM's team of engineers and testers can't figure out what was wrong with a car, and require magazine feedback to let them know what to do...Then they should be FIRED.
This isn't some $500 phone or $1,000 computer or $50 game. This is a $60K purchase. Likely the second largest purchase in dollar amount in just about most buyer's lives. You don't ask your buyers to beta test this for you.
This isn't some $500 phone or $1,000 computer or $50 game. This is a $60K purchase. Likely the second largest purchase in dollar amount in just about most buyer's lives. You don't ask your buyers to beta test this for you.
Yeap GM even has their own Milford Proving grounds and they have professional drivers that right away after a hot lap they can tell you what its wrong with the car. So far they had not made public any lap time with video from a U.S track so that tells me that until the car issues are iron out they are not going to make public any lap time.
Last edited by Ivan Viera; 10-22-2019 at 04:25 PM.
10-22-2019, 08:27 PM
#56
The early reviews were not nearly as bad as some are making them out to be.... C+D literally called it "more than the best Corvette ever". It looks amazing, its fast as hell, the interior is premium, its relatively cheap. These arent debatable facts. Lets just enjoy our cars.
10-23-2019, 11:47 PM
#57
Burning Brakes
The early reviews were not nearly as bad as some are making them out to be.... C+D literally called it "more than the best Corvette ever". It looks amazing, its fast as hell, the interior is premium, its relatively cheap. These arent debatable facts. Lets just enjoy our cars.
10-24-2019, 01:46 PM
#58
Some people are satisfied with a double. Some wanted the home run.
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PurpleLion (10-28-2019)
10-25-2019, 12:31 PM
#59
Pretty new here and must admit the hate and love for the C8 on these forums is humorous.
It seems to be Black and White for members here
I personally am new to corvettes and only came over because of the mid engine
It seems to be Black and White for members here
I personally am new to corvettes and only came over because of the mid engine
10-25-2019, 01:43 PM
#60
Let’s all stop generalizing from the specific
While the straight line performance of the Z51 is easy to establish with 2-3 separate sets of 0-60 and 1/4 mile tests using idiot-proof launch control, road course performance and overall ride/handling/braking will require a more extended regime across a range of tracks against a range of competitors. The only thing we actually know about the C8, performance-wise, is that it’s faster to 60 than nearly every other mid-engine, rear-wheel drive car ON THE PLANET. Everything else is fundamentally TBD, with the early returns skewed by a small number of very vocal journalists.