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It's also a fact that I'm not able to drive my front engine C6 Z06 to it's maximum capabilities as it is so being able to pull an additional .02g's around a 300' skid pad means nothing to me.
How many of us "hardcore long time Corvette owners" do you think drive our Corvettes at 10/10's on a nice Sunday afternoon drive in the countryside or an a two week road trip? Have you ever driven the Tail of the Dragon at 10/10's with your "old lady" in the passenger seat with a terrible headache from the constant side to side whipping of her head?
When I drive any of my four cars, I'm watching the traffic 100-200 feet in front of me. Being able to see if a penny is heads up or tails up that is on the pavement 6" in front of my car when I'm driving 80 MPH on the Interstate doesn't mean ****. Seeing that idiot swerve into my lane 100' in front of me is what I'm watching for, so I can take evasive action. Not being able to see a penny that is 6" in front of my front bumper doesn't' mean **** to me.
Maybe you should read up about the age of Corvette owners. Most of us are "old timers" and a mid engine Corvette brings nothing new to the table. Change for the sake of change is money wasted in my opinion.
I obviously haven't driven the C8, but based on my many years of driving mid-engned Porsches, I've found you'll be able to enjoy the better handling at a wide range of speeds. I mostly drive on winding country roads, and I enjoy the benefits of the mid-engined Porsche without pushing the car to anywhere near its maximum.I'm confident that the overwhelming majority of C8 owners will be more than happy with its ME handling, even if they never track their car.
The biggest risk is making it look good with the engine in the back. With front engine cars looks are easy. With rear engine cars it is very difficult to do. If the car looks good and comes with a manual trans I will buy it. If there is no manual trans I move on to something else.
C4 = "The Corvette is Dead, nobody wants a car with Euro design and a digital dashboard" ( Last year sales of C3 = 25,407 to first year sales of C4 = 51,547 )
C5 = "The Corvette is Dead, the seats are horrible and the interior is a plastic mess" ( Last year sales of C4 = 9,752, to first year sales of C5 = 31,904)
C6 = "The Corvette is Dead, they got rid of the pop-up headlights and it is no longer a "true" Corvette" ( Last year sales of C5 = 34,064, to first year sales of C6 = 37,372)
C7 = "The Corvette is Dead, they got rid of the round tail lights and it is no longer a "true" Corvette" ( Last year sales of C6 = 13,466, to first year sales of C7 = 37,288)
C8 = "The Corvette is Dead, they moved the engine and it is no longer a "true" Corvette" ( Do you see a trend here?)
Your numbers are BS. Thanks for making them up to support your opinion. Last year of sales of the C4 was 21536, first year of the C5 was 9772. That's just one example. 1984 compared to 1982 is another. Comparing a nearly 2 year run for 1984 can't compare to 1982. The sales didn't really pick up. In 1982 we had a short run, in 1981 they sold 40k units... in 1985 they sold 38k units. Those are far more comparable as full model year runs. So... people bought less C4's than C3's. Same goes with the C5 to C6. Real numbers show the C6 didn't take as well as it should have being a 'new' car.
Will the new car sell???, yes. People like new stuff and being the first on the block. Making up numbers to try to support whatever the heck you are trying to make up is just dumb. There is a LOT more to a new model. The looks, the price, etc. all factor in.
The biggest risk is making it look good with the engine in the back. With front engine cars looks are easy. With rear engine cars it is very difficult to do. If the car looks good and comes with a manual trans I will buy it. If there is no manual trans I move on to something else.
Although a car's beauty is subjective, almost everyone believes that Ferraris are great looking cars and rarely fail to turn heads as they drive down the road. If you google mid-engined Ferrari, you'll see a number of gorgeous cars, at least IMO.
Your numbers are BS. Thanks for making them up to support your opinion. Last year of sales of the C4 was 21536, first year of the C5 was 9772. That's just one example. 1984 compared to 1982 is another. Comparing a nearly 2 year run for 1984 can't compare to 1982. The sales didn't really pick up. In 1982 we had a short run, in 1981 they sold 40k units... in 1985 they sold 38k units. Those are far more comparable as full model year runs. So... people bought less C4's than C3's. Same goes with the C5 to C6. Real numbers show the C6 didn't take as well as it should have being a 'new' car.
Will the new car sell???, yes. People like new stuff and being the first on the block. Making up numbers to try to support whatever the heck you are trying to make up is just dumb. There is a LOT more to a new model. The looks, the price, etc. all factor in.
My point was to show that the doom & gloom that is ALWAYS predicted with every generation change is basically BS and the first FULL year of sales consistently support that. And people don't 37,000 vehicles this expensive just because they are "new". They buy them because they like them. End of story.
It's also a fact that I'm not able to drive my front engine C6 Z06 to it's maximum capabilities as it is so being able to pull an additional .02g's around a 300' skid pad means nothing to me.
But what if the ME car offered you far better capabilities, at your current level of skill?
Because that's what most people will get, the car will be easier to extract higher performance from.
Might be a wild *** guess but would expect the age spread distribution on Corvette owners has more to do with the income level age spread distribution then pure desire to own one.
Base MSRP is near twice the average MSRP of all cars sold in the US.
Yep. I could theoretically afford one, if it was all I wished to spend my disposable income for the next few years on. Realistically, in my early 30s, a $60-70k second car (yes, I know they can get lower than that with discounts) isn't really in the household budget.
In a couple years time, when they are solidly into the mid-high 30s on the used market right about the time they are doign a mid-cycle facelift? I'll be far more inclined to buy a ME than I am to buy a FE right now. It'll be the cheapest modern ME in the 500hp range by far.
My point was to show that the doom & gloom that is ALWAYS predicted with every generation change is basically BS and the first FULL year of sales consistently support that. And people don't 37,000 vehicles this expensive just because they are "new". They buy them because they like them. End of story.
No doom and gloom here just a basic debate of an OEM’s design decision to depart from the norm and possible reactions. Being in the automotive business for 40+ years I’ve seen market studies fail many times, supplier plants built for hundreds of millions of dollars shuttered in 2-3 years. The latest GM CT6 that cost 600m to develop only to have annual sales under 10k when expected volumes were estimated at 35k, result...4 year vehicle killed.
I don’t think and certainly hope that is not the case here but it does happen. All makers have an expected ROI and sometimes regardless of the vehicle or investment if not met it will be killed. That’s what bean counters do
Last edited by blk05coupe; 05-28-2019 at 05:40 PM.
Although a car's beauty is subjective, almost everyone believes that Ferraris are great looking cars and rarely fail to turn heads as they drive down the road. If you google mid-engined Ferrari, you'll see a number of gorgeous cars, at least IMO.
For sure. I like the look of most ME cars over the long front engine batmobile look.
while mid-engine layout may attract some younger people those younger people will not magically be in a better position to buy just because the engine moved. And young people were already interested in the corvette anyway. Going mid-engine will attract some potential customers and turn some others away as the corvette suddenly stops being the track capable semi-comfortable GT tourer.
You don't necessarily need to drive at 10/10's to feel better handling. Even at 5/10 there should be a noticeable difference. In any case, better handling is an advantage whether you will take advantage of it or not.
I’m not an average driver and I feel I can get 9/10 out of any car. I don’t think it’s fair to generalize. Most of the guys I run with all track their cars. Some prefer drag others road courses. I know at least 3 guys I work with on my floor that can run their cars at least 8/10. I think there are few weekend warrior that can run a car to the max. Generally though a 10 is a pro driver imo.
C4 = "The Corvette is Dead, nobody wants a car with Euro design and a digital dashboard" ( Last year sales of C3 = 25,407 to first year sales of C4 = 51,547 )
C5 = "The Corvette is Dead, the seats are horrible and the interior is a plastic mess" ( Last year sales of C4 = 9,752, to first year sales of C5 = 31,904)
C6 = "The Corvette is Dead, they got rid of the pop-up headlights and it is no longer a "true" Corvette" ( Last year sales of C5 = 34,064, to first year sales of C6 = 37,372)
C7 = "The Corvette is Dead, they got rid of the round tail lights and it is no longer a "true" Corvette" ( Last year sales of C6 = 13,466, to first year sales of C7 = 37,288)
C8 = "The Corvette is Dead, they moved the engine and it is no longer a "true" Corvette" ( Do you see a trend here?)
Human nature for a decent portion of Americans...its just how they perceive the world..
and then there are those that see the glass half full.
the upcoming generation of the corvette will be awesome.
The July 18 th corvette reveal should be quite an enlightening event
I always believed that when the rumors started about the new Mid-Engine Corvette, that GM/Chevrolet would ease into it. I was thinking that it would be released as a special edition/model C7. After all, the C7 has only been out 5 years. Also the front of the mid-engine has a lot of the ZR1 look. That also brings up the point that all the work and engineering for a 1 year run of the ZR1 seems strange. there are so many hard core long time Corvette owners that are not sold on a mid-engine. Will they lose many of the their long time repeat buyers. I realize many of us are getting up there in age and GM is looking to the younger generation, but I am not sold that they will flock to the showrooms to grab one simply because it is all new. The C7 was designed for the younger generation yet almost all I see are driving my the older generation.
Just sitting here thinking which I realize is not a good idea many times.
I'm 65 and this is the first Corvette in forever that has really driven my interest! By that I mean something I actually plan on buying as opposed to " yeah, that's nice". As for younger buyers, all I have is anecdotal evidence, but my own children, ranging in age from 30-37, are overwhelmingly excited by it, as are some enthusiasts their age that I work with. (I work in finance). Now my kids have kids of their own, so it will be a few years, with one exception, before they'll be able to buy it, which is normal for that age group in every generation. However, the C8 is going to be a massive success.
Chevrolet is all on the ME Corvette and from all indications, all in on developing EV and autonomous vehicles for thr near future. The new Cadillacs have the GM “Super Cruise” hands free system which is step one in the GM autonomous march.
There is simply not enough two seater market share for both ME and FE Corvette platforms. I would agree the C9 could go back to a FE platform, however I suspect ME or FE, the C9 could be all electric, but certainly hybrid.
Anecdotally, the C7 does not appear to have penetrated the younger segment of domestic buyers. While the C8 ME may loose a handfull of us dinosaurs, it may have a better chance of attracting younger buyers, and maybe it could be marketed internationally beyond North America and Europe.
My youngest son is getting a computer science degree (geeks will rule the world). He and his 34 yr old brother, and their friends, think the C7 is way better looking than the C6. Young professionals can probably afford a base C7. But they just don’t care about cars. They Lyft, Uber and carpool everywhere, and aren’t excited by performance cars. The marketing problem is much deeper than styling, configuration and performance.
If I may, let me offer a view on Corvettes from a 24 year old who found cars as a passion on his own. I bought my C6Z @ 22YO. It was my dream car since I was in 6th grade and an "old guy" let me sit in his. Ironically I bought mine in the same color that C6Z was all those years ago. I just turned 24 in April and while the C6Z has always been one of my dream cars, I've always gravitated towards mid engine cars. The problem with mid engine cars is they're so dang expensive. Sure the Fiero and MR2 are cheaper options but you have to put so much money into those cars just to match the performance of even a stock C5 LS1 car. It's just not feasible. Every other mid engine car whether it be Porsche, Lambo, Audi, etc are just too expensive for the average person my age. Most people my age can't even afford a used C6 in between buying a home, raising a family, going to school etc. But for the few of us fortunate enough to have decent incomes... they're still not enough to get into a European exotic.
FE Corvettes to us, while a novelty in their own, are falling behind in the "new tech" category. We want the world beater (those of us who are in to cars) at the corvette price and while the C7 is a great car in its own right it still falls behind the major mid engine cars. With Corvette going ME that gives a real chance of having that car that we can take on a track up against a Huracan Performante for example and actually feel like you have a chance against it without having to have a "masters" race car driving.
The looks of mid engine cars is also a really big draw for a lot of us. We grow up seeing these cars everywhere. They're the cars we had on our walls growing up and unfortunately I can't think of many my age who really look up to Corvettes like most of us. It seems like the only ones who do are the ones who either had one in the family or are just die hard American car fans. I mean for crying out loud I get made fun of more in my cammed Z06 for it being an "old man car" than I did in my old turbo RX8 for it being an "unreliable rotary car". JDM and European cars have definitely taken over the market for younger buyers and Corvette has to evolve to meet that market. I'm rambling at this point but at the end of the day if we all want to see this brand continue this is a necessary change and it'll be world changing when it happens.
Might be a wild *** guess but would expect the age spread distribution on Corvette owners has more to do with the income level age spread distribution then pure desire to own one.
Base MSRP is near twice the average MSRP of all cars sold in the US.
Income and lifestyle has everything to do with it. While the Corvette may be a "bargain" in terms capability, it is far from being a "cheap" sports car. For the most part, the people that can afford it are those that have feathered their nest egg well, and raised kids who are now raising their own kids. There aren't a lot of 30 somethings that can plop down $60+K in cash, or handle a 1,200/month note for a weekend car and maintain a family budget. (Good career and no kids set aside)
GM isn't changing the car to reach a younger demographic. They're changing the car to meet the demands of the people entering the current demographic. In other words, the average age of the Corvette owner will stay the same, it's the demands of those entering this age group that they trying to satisfy.
I doubt that anyone has "statistics" to back up their opinions either way. That covers your "opinion" also of who is "overwhelmed" about the mid engine layout in the Corvette.
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Agreed, but the OP stated it as a fact: "there are so many hard core long time Corvette owners that are not sold on a mid-engine". Nowhere did he indicate that statement was just his opinion or how he felt. On the other hand, I stated how I felt (my opinion). It is clear that my statements were my opinion, not stated as "fact".
But they just don’t care about cars. They Lyft, Uber and carpool everywhere, and aren’t excited by performance cars. The marketing problem is much deeper than styling, configuration and performance.
Hate to break it to you, but most of your generation as a whole couldn't care less about performance cars either. Exactly one person older than me in any part of my extended family has owned sports or classic cars, the overwhelming bulk of any generation views vehicles as nothing but basic transit.
Let me jump in here and give you my humble thoughts on new Corvettes and mid engines. I’m on my 7th Corvette and my motto is, don’t argue “just buy one of each”!
I’m planning my 80th birthday present to myself in a few months and I plan on a 2020 C7 ZR1 AND a C8. Almost always Newer is better. Especially in the fast changing world of Electronics and Integration into real world cars. New requirements, materials, market pressures, and Opportunities! So far, GM mainly makes motor vehicles and needs to always be looking for new or better opportunities. There are a lot of $200K plus cars being sold in the world and many more coming out. Corvette is a profitable part of GM and has in place production and supply base, so all they need is new design to open up these opportunities. Also, they built a second production line at BG so it would be a simple decision to keep a refresh FE C7+ line going. (Already tooled, passed federal requirements, and a different choice of 2 different configurations of Corvette) along side the ME C8. I want one of each!
When I sold my business I bought myself a DB9 and thought that was the best handling car I had driven, until I bought a C6 Z06, then a C6 ZR1 what a machine! Then I bought the first C7 Z06-7 A8 and was wowed. I’m now down to 5 cars from 10 and I can’t wait for more HP technology and great styling and interior improvement. Then maybe I’ll sell these two. One Manuel and one A8, and “Can’t wait” takes on new meaning when you are my age. I’m planning on driving in the fast lane till at least 95!
Outa my way; Jim
2 Velosity Yellows. Love yellow on the Corvette.
A c8 is in your future that's for sure but I wouldn't get my hopes up for that 2020 ZR1.
05-28-2019, 03:29 PM
