Saw the C8 uncovered... wow
08-16-2018, 04:48 PM
#301
Instructor
In my business, which caters to a more fiscally substantial crowd, I have seen a changing demographic. Where the brunt of my clientele used to be older folks that have earned and saved or simply had more fruitful jobs, it is now a much younger bunch. Many of them are not at all interested in my business because there are interested in what is consider more immediate gratification. Automobiles come under this heading, as do expensive dinners, elaborate vacations, mechanical watches and many other luxury items.
There is also the concept that GM is not planning on tapping into the core and historic buyer of Corvettes with this model. The basis for sales of this vehicle may have been planned from the "get go" as international. Bury the naysayers that do not think a Ferrari buyer, McLaren buyer or a Lamborghini buyer will own a Corvette. When the see the actual car, just like all of us, due credit and accolades will follow. Why not call a $150k Corvette the everyday mid engine rig and save the Ferrari or other exotic for a sunny day?
Both of these scenarios work in my world! I admit that I am not the average existence for comparison but I am one that needs to be considered.
There is also the concept that GM is not planning on tapping into the core and historic buyer of Corvettes with this model. The basis for sales of this vehicle may have been planned from the "get go" as international. Bury the naysayers that do not think a Ferrari buyer, McLaren buyer or a Lamborghini buyer will own a Corvette. When the see the actual car, just like all of us, due credit and accolades will follow. Why not call a $150k Corvette the everyday mid engine rig and save the Ferrari or other exotic for a sunny day?
Both of these scenarios work in my world! I admit that I am not the average existence for comparison but I am one that needs to be considered.
I could buy another Ferrari or a Lambo or a Porsche or a Mclaren.. but my next toy will be a mid-engine Corvette.. best bang for the buck, more fun and less stress.
08-16-2018, 04:52 PM
#302
Racer
Thread Starter
However, I have a rough idea of whats gonna go down, my numbers might not be dead accurate, but its a hell of a lot closer to this 60k joke being thrown around. If anything, I think this prepped people better, it wont hit them as hard when they see the official pricing info (which I have not seen)
Lastly, C7Pimp, you have been very hostile in your posts, I hope I didn't offend you or anything man, I was just engaging in the convo. Keep it cool
08-16-2018, 04:56 PM
#303
Racer
Thread Starter
THIS. A minor injury on a gm car is allot easier (cheaper) to fix than these foreign exotics. Take into consideration that it cost almost the equivalent of a brand new z06 to fix the front end of a Mclaren P1 god forbid something happened to it. More peace of mind driving around in a car made by GM, knowing that if something does happen, you won't have to pay an arm and a leg,
Last edited by Zerv02; 08-16-2018 at 06:18 PM.
08-16-2018, 06:10 PM
#304
Stop feeding this attention craving blow-hard.
Even if you give him the benefit of the doubt and believe he's seen it, it's clear he doesn't know anything beyond what he's seen. And is just using this thread as a device to get attention. Stop giving it to him.
He's flip flopping back and forth on pricing, branding (If it's a Corvette/C8, if it's a supplemental Corvette branded sub-model, if it's not a Vette at all), its name (C8 vs. "XXXX") and the performance specs/packaging.
There are plenty of ways somebody could come across an exposed C8 this close to the assumed reveal, but anyone with any real information or feedback to give on any key data (performance, pricing, availability, branding, market positioning, etc.) would be either too busy, too important or too held down by NDA to risk anything in the name of anonymous fame. It's very clear (crystal, in fact) that the only thing to gain by doing this is attention and a way to fill what must be very boring free time (which the OP seems to have an abundance of).
Do the forum a favor and just stop giving him what he's after. This dance has gone on long enough.
Even if you give him the benefit of the doubt and believe he's seen it, it's clear he doesn't know anything beyond what he's seen. And is just using this thread as a device to get attention. Stop giving it to him.
He's flip flopping back and forth on pricing, branding (If it's a Corvette/C8, if it's a supplemental Corvette branded sub-model, if it's not a Vette at all), its name (C8 vs. "XXXX") and the performance specs/packaging.
There are plenty of ways somebody could come across an exposed C8 this close to the assumed reveal, but anyone with any real information or feedback to give on any key data (performance, pricing, availability, branding, market positioning, etc.) would be either too busy, too important or too held down by NDA to risk anything in the name of anonymous fame. It's very clear (crystal, in fact) that the only thing to gain by doing this is attention and a way to fill what must be very boring free time (which the OP seems to have an abundance of).
Do the forum a favor and just stop giving him what he's after. This dance has gone on long enough.
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Mikec7z (08-17-2018)
08-16-2018, 06:14 PM
#305
Melting Slicks
I'm afraid that I wasn't explicit enough. Sometimes it's not about the cost. Sometimes it's about the perception of value. Another way of saying this is "one man's trash is another man's treasure." A certain number of buyers will definately believe in the ME in the $100k plus range.
Why I believe the ME is not a 169k Halo car.
Tadge Juechter, Corvette's chief engineer about corvette and knowing their demographic.
Article:
https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/insight...ing-sports-car
2015 discussion Bob Lutz had with Car and Driver,
Originally posted by Car and Driver
C/D: That’s interesting you mention mid-engine. We were just reporting about the mid-engine Corvette mule and had heard it was in development before GM’s bankruptcy. Care to share anything?
BL: I have no idea whether they’re going to do a mid-engine Corvette or not, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there was one in the mill. But what happens is, this would be about the fifth time that a mid-engine Corvette has been in the mill, and then you get an economic downturn and it’s the first thing that gets cast aside.
“Actually, the C7 was going to be mid-engine. Tadge said, ‘I can’t do a good car if you don’t let me go mid-engine.’
C/D: How good do you think the mid-engine Corvette is going to be?
BL: I think they would unquestionably do a good job with it. Actually, the C7 was going to be mid-engine. The reason Tadge Juechter wanted to do it is because you get to a certain limit of how much power you can put down with the engine in the front, and Tadge showed us simulations to where you could go to 700 horsepower and 750 horsepower and it wasn’t going to do any good. To get the power down, a rear-mid-engine formula is really good. Tadge said, “I can’t do a good car if you don’t let me go mid-engine.” His mid-engine budget got canceled and they said, “Tadge, you’re going to have to do it and you don’t have the budget for a mid-engine car.” So after about a three-day sulk, he was told, do another front mid-engine. The issue was, to get the weight distribution we needed, the engine had to be moved back and you couldn’t do it with an X-shaped hydroformed frame. The solution, why the C7 is so good and why it is getting the power down, is because they added two inches of wheelbase and they were able to get the engine more towards the back. And it’s a lighter engine.
C&D article
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/ea...lug-in-pickups
Mark R comments about the C8 at the 5:30 time marker at the end of video. Saying this is the end of C7 and can’t wait for the C8.
Last edited by fasttoys; 08-16-2018 at 06:44 PM.
08-16-2018, 06:27 PM
#306
As I said in post #84, im not affiliated with GM in any way, this post would've been taken down in its fist few hours if that was the case. Lots of people speculating that im part of some sort of teaser campaign and im purposely leaking info to hype everyone up. No.
However, I have a rough idea of whats gonna go down, my numbers might not be dead accurate, but its a hell of a lot closer to this 60k joke being thrown around. If anything, I think this prepped people better, it wont hit them as hard when they see the official pricing info (which I have not seen)
Lastly, C7Pimp, you have been very hostile in your posts, I hope I didn't offend you or anything man, I was just engaging in the convo. Keep it cool
However, I have a rough idea of whats gonna go down, my numbers might not be dead accurate, but its a hell of a lot closer to this 60k joke being thrown around. If anything, I think this prepped people better, it wont hit them as hard when they see the official pricing info (which I have not seen)
Lastly, C7Pimp, you have been very hostile in your posts, I hope I didn't offend you or anything man, I was just engaging in the convo. Keep it cool
The current ZR1 numbers are the key to future sales in the 150K range.
There are many experts in this forum who are very knowledgeable and "do have" direct connections to GM and apparently you do not !
So dont trivialize people in the forum trying to be an expert!
08-16-2018, 06:46 PM
#307
As I said in post #84, im not affiliated with GM in any way, this post would've been taken down in its fist few hours if that was the case. Lots of people speculating that im part of some sort of teaser campaign and im purposely leaking info to hype everyone up. No.
However, I have a rough idea of whats gonna go down, my numbers might not be dead accurate, but its a hell of a lot closer to this 60k joke being thrown around. If anything, I think this prepped people better, it wont hit them as hard when they see the official pricing info (which I have not seen)
Lastly, C7Pimp, you have been very hostile in your posts, I hope I didn't offend you or anything man, I was just engaging in the convo. Keep it cool
However, I have a rough idea of whats gonna go down, my numbers might not be dead accurate, but its a hell of a lot closer to this 60k joke being thrown around. If anything, I think this prepped people better, it wont hit them as hard when they see the official pricing info (which I have not seen)
Lastly, C7Pimp, you have been very hostile in your posts, I hope I didn't offend you or anything man, I was just engaging in the convo. Keep it cool
08-16-2018, 06:58 PM
#308
C7 will unfortunately fade away and the new ME is the replacement and the base car will be well under 100k. Bankruptcy stopped Tadge from making the C7 a ME and now he can do it with the C8. Look at the post watch the videos and it’s hard to argue what they have said, your point on perception and GM trying to get into a higher demo is pointless. Time will tell who is correct and I don’t have a horse in the race.
Why I believe the ME is not a 169k Halo car.
Tadge Juechter, Corvette's chief engineer about corvette and knowing their demographic.
Article:
https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/insight...ing-sports-car
2015 discussion Bob Lutz had with Car and Driver,
Originally posted by Car and Driver
C/D: That’s interesting you mention mid-engine. We were just reporting about the mid-engine Corvette mule and had heard it was in development before GM’s bankruptcy. Care to share anything?
BL: I have no idea whether they’re going to do a mid-engine Corvette or not, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there was one in the mill. But what happens is, this would be about the fifth time that a mid-engine Corvette has been in the mill, and then you get an economic downturn and it’s the first thing that gets cast aside.
“Actually, the C7 was going to be mid-engine. Tadge said, ‘I can’t do a good car if you don’t let me go mid-engine.’
C/D: How good do you think the mid-engine Corvette is going to be?
BL: I think they would unquestionably do a good job with it. Actually, the C7 was going to be mid-engine. The reason Tadge Juechter wanted to do it is because you get to a certain limit of how much power you can put down with the engine in the front, and Tadge showed us simulations to where you could go to 700 horsepower and 750 horsepower and it wasn’t going to do any good. To get the power down, a rear-mid-engine formula is really good. Tadge said, “I can’t do a good car if you don’t let me go mid-engine.” His mid-engine budget got canceled and they said, “Tadge, you’re going to have to do it and you don’t have the budget for a mid-engine car.” So after about a three-day sulk, he was told, do another front mid-engine. The issue was, to get the weight distribution we needed, the engine had to be moved back and you couldn’t do it with an X-shaped hydroformed frame. The solution, why the C7 is so good and why it is getting the power down, is because they added two inches of wheelbase and they were able to get the engine more towards the back. And it’s a lighter engine.
C&D article
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/ea...lug-in-pickups
Mark R comments about the C8 at the 5:30 time marker at the end of video. Saying this is the end of C7 and can’t wait for the C8.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8wcdDDL-1uU
All this banter back and forth I think really comes down to does the front engine GT layout survive into the future plans for Corvette?
I think if the answer is yes we will see a upscale mid engine Zora price just below Porsche 911 pricing.
If the answer is no that the front engine GT is dead then I agree we will see a Zora base model that starts in the mid 60k range.
I hope for the former. I love to see the Front engine GT remain as the entry level Corvette with a base Stingray and a Grand Sport.
Then have the Zora fill the slot of the Z06 and ZR1.
That way GM sell 20k units of the front engine GT model which I think they can with a refresh C7.5
Then sell 10k of the Z06 / ZR1 Zora to maintain the 30k units per year which from what the new plant design is just about what it can produce without going to full capacity with tons of costly overtime.
Basically a Corvette for everyone budget from 65k up to 150k plus.
I also think it's clear that GM can sell a 150k plus supercharged at 2k to 3 k units per year and they already proven then can sell 8k to 9k $100k Z06 when the car is in it early life cycle
08-16-2018, 07:29 PM
#309
Melting Slicks
Definitely add me to the list of those that hope the C8 is not a complete C7 replacement with a $100K plus base starting price. Wipes out a wide swath of enthusiasts. While I could bite the bullet and narrow down my current list of toys in order to grab one at that price I really would not want to. I simply have far too many other interests to fund.
08-16-2018, 07:44 PM
#310
Melting Slicks
Great article does give insight to what the chief engineer for Corvette thought process is.
All this banter back and forth I think really comes down to does the front engine GT layout survive into the future plans for Corvette?
I think if the answer is yes we will see a upscale mid engine Zora price just below Porsche 911 pricing.
If the answer is no that the front engine GT is dead then I agree we will see a Zora base model that starts in the mid 60k range.
I hope for the former. I love to see the Front engine GT remain as the entry level Corvette with a base Stingray and a Grand Sport.
Then have the Zora fill the slot of the Z06 and ZR1.
That way GM sell 20k units of the front engine GT model which I think they can with a refresh C7.5
Then sell 10k of the Z06 / ZR1 Zora to maintain the 30k units per year which from what the new plant design is just about what it can produce without going to full capacity with tons of costly overtime.
Basically a Corvette for everyone budget from 65k up to 150k plus.
I also think it's clear that GM can sell a 150k plus supercharged at 2k to 3 k units per year and they already proven then can sell 8k to 9k $100k Z06 when the car is in it early life cycle
All this banter back and forth I think really comes down to does the front engine GT layout survive into the future plans for Corvette?
I think if the answer is yes we will see a upscale mid engine Zora price just below Porsche 911 pricing.
If the answer is no that the front engine GT is dead then I agree we will see a Zora base model that starts in the mid 60k range.
I hope for the former. I love to see the Front engine GT remain as the entry level Corvette with a base Stingray and a Grand Sport.
Then have the Zora fill the slot of the Z06 and ZR1.
That way GM sell 20k units of the front engine GT model which I think they can with a refresh C7.5
Then sell 10k of the Z06 / ZR1 Zora to maintain the 30k units per year which from what the new plant design is just about what it can produce without going to full capacity with tons of costly overtime.
Basically a Corvette for everyone budget from 65k up to 150k plus.
I also think it's clear that GM can sell a 150k plus supercharged at 2k to 3 k units per year and they already proven then can sell 8k to 9k $100k Z06 when the car is in it early life cycle
Last edited by fasttoys; 08-17-2018 at 04:31 AM.
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Larshelt (08-17-2018),
NewYuriCity (08-17-2018)
08-16-2018, 08:18 PM
#311
Chiming in as a data point. I'm under 40 (barely), 2 young kids (under 6). Previous owner of many toys, including a C4 Z06, a C63 AMG, E92 M3 and the big kahuna a 2011 458 Italia (which i sold last year). Grew up in a GM family, currently have a 2018 Traverse and a Cruze in the driveway and an empty spot in the garage for a toy.
I could buy another Ferrari or a Lambo or a Porsche or a Mclaren.. but my next toy will be a mid-engine Corvette.. best bang for the buck, more fun and less stress.
I could buy another Ferrari or a Lambo or a Porsche or a Mclaren.. but my next toy will be a mid-engine Corvette.. best bang for the buck, more fun and less stress.
Maybe be older people care about the status that an exotic brings? But for me all I care about is performance and if I like the way it looks. Up until now, the Corvette has had the performance, but not quite there in looks and interior quality. If GM can pull it off for around $150k I would buy one and add it to the garage.
08-16-2018, 09:03 PM
#312
Definitely add me to the list of those that hope the C8 is not a complete C7 replacement with a $100K plus base starting price. Wipes out a wide swath of enthusiasts. While I could bite the bullet and narrow down my current list of toys in order to grab one at that price I really would not want to. I simply have far too many other interests to fund.
If is an additional to the C7 and the C7 or C7.5 remains then you see 90k and up entry price for the Zora.
That is just common sense. Also just my opinion unlike so many others on the forum I have no inside information.
08-16-2018, 09:31 PM
#313
Melting Slicks
If the Zora is a replacement of the C7 you will get your wish of a 65kto 70k entry level price.
If is an additional to the C7 and the C7 or C7.5 remains then you see 90k and up entry price for the Zora.
That is just common sense. Also just my opinion unlike so many others on the forum I have no inside information.
If is an additional to the C7 and the C7 or C7.5 remains then you see 90k and up entry price for the Zora.
That is just common sense. Also just my opinion unlike so many others on the forum I have no inside information.
Lol I agree its all opinions unless we worked on the Corvette team which I do not. Mark R head of products at GM comments about the C8 at the 5:30-time marker. Saying ZR1 is the end of C7 and can't talk about the C8. So my ? would the next ME or FE be a C8 if its a standalone car? And there is no FE in development that has been talked about and we have not seen test mules only on the ME.
Last edited by fasttoys; 08-16-2018 at 10:34 PM.
08-16-2018, 11:19 PM
#314
Melting Slicks
""Paying 110k for a base c8 is a damn good deal considering its really worth 250+""
You don't know what the F&^$ you're talking about. That is some colossal horseshit.
No, it isn't a damn good deal. It's a damn shitty deal. People that are the core of the customer base of Corvette WILL NOT REMAIN if the car is that expensive. That core base is not going to pay double for the C8 over the C7. The volumes GO WAY DOWN, and their cost per part GOES WAY UP and their profitability takes a giant ****. You don't listen at all do you? You don't know what the F&^$ your talking about.
I work in product development professionally. It's part of my job to understand how this works. What you are saying would be suicide for Corvette
You don't know what the F&^$ you're talking about. That is some colossal horseshit.
No, it isn't a damn good deal. It's a damn shitty deal. People that are the core of the customer base of Corvette WILL NOT REMAIN if the car is that expensive. That core base is not going to pay double for the C8 over the C7. The volumes GO WAY DOWN, and their cost per part GOES WAY UP and their profitability takes a giant ****. You don't listen at all do you? You don't know what the F&^$ your talking about.
I work in product development professionally. It's part of my job to understand how this works. What you are saying would be suicide for Corvette
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blb078 (08-16-2018)
08-17-2018, 12:31 AM
#315
Burning Brakes
Member Since: Feb 2018
Location: San Francisco Bay Area CALIFORNIA
Posts: 802
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GM's Marketing Research
......so your saying their isn’t a lot of people with more money than the current Corvette demographic that could potentially turn toward a much improved product despite a higher price? I believe that market exists if the current Corvette mindset could also be changed in the more upscale buyers. There are many on this forum that can afford a much more expensive Corvette if the product warranted the price and they would gladly pay for a more exclusive car. Then their are those that complain since the price would take it out of their ability to purchase......at least new or near new. In summary, it may be suicide for GM to let the Corvette set in its current buying demographic as this group is sadly dying off faster than its being replaced. Without significant change it very well could be suicide for Corvette.
GM has the most sophisticated Marketing Research and analytical tools at its disposal. While not infallible, Product Positioning is a sophisticated craft that requires a large, prolonged, interdisciplinary effort--and a lot of actuarial exercises. A huge number of variables are in play.
I have NO FREAKING IDEA where GM is going to position the C8. But it will be a very well-considered and profoundly well-informed decision--reviewed, debated and approved at the very highest corporate levels. One thing I can promise you. It will be far greater in scope, depth and sophistication than any of our fun, but amateur speculation.
Last edited by IronV; 08-17-2018 at 12:51 AM.
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CorvettoBrando (08-17-2018)
08-17-2018, 12:33 AM
#316
t
GM has the most sophisticated Marketing Research and analytical tools at its disposal. While not infallible, Product Positioning is a sophisticated craft that requires a large, prolonged, interdisciplinary effort--and a lot of actuarial exercises. A huge number of variables are in play.
I have NO FREAKING IDEA where GM is going to position the C8. But it will be a very well-considered and profoundly well-informed decision, reviewed, debated and approved at the very highest corporate levels. One thing I can promise you. It will be far greater in scope, depth and sophistication than any of our fun, but amateur speculation.
GM has the most sophisticated Marketing Research and analytical tools at its disposal. While not infallible, Product Positioning is a sophisticated craft that requires a large, prolonged, interdisciplinary effort--and a lot of actuarial exercises. A huge number of variables are in play.
I have NO FREAKING IDEA where GM is going to position the C8. But it will be a very well-considered and profoundly well-informed decision, reviewed, debated and approved at the very highest corporate levels. One thing I can promise you. It will be far greater in scope, depth and sophistication than any of our fun, but amateur speculation.
08-17-2018, 12:36 AM
#317
Burning Brakes
Member Since: Feb 2018
Location: San Francisco Bay Area CALIFORNIA
Posts: 802
Received 495 Likes
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At least the Bolt isn't an Aztek
The Bolt is a much better car than the Tesla. It's true that GM hasn't been blessed by the hip cache that Tesla has. But it's hard to fight feelings with logic and data. That's outside the scope of Product Positioning.
Last edited by IronV; 08-17-2018 at 12:37 AM.
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Suns_PSD (08-18-2018)
08-17-2018, 12:41 AM
#318
Bolt looks like a dinky econo-car.
08-17-2018, 12:44 AM
#319
Burning Brakes
Member Since: Feb 2018
Location: San Francisco Bay Area CALIFORNIA
Posts: 802
Received 495 Likes
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Bolt vs Tesla
You know what Tesla's discovering? Mass-producing good automobiles is hard...
08-17-2018, 04:06 AM
#320
Melting Slicks
Looks are subjective of course. I've driven both cars extensively. There is no question however, the Bolt is better built, much more reliable, cheaper to own, has better range and yup. It's smaller. Tesla has some very serious quality control issues.
You know what Tesla's discovering? Mass-producing good automobiles is hard...
You know what Tesla's discovering? Mass-producing good automobiles is hard...
Build quality
http://www.autoline.tv/journal/?p=54950
Tesla sales compared to its competition
https://cleantechnica.com/2018/05/07...-sales-report/
Last edited by fasttoys; 08-17-2018 at 11:41 AM.