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The ZR1 is not going to fade on the top end. The ZR1 will be 150 HP more, and 100 - 200 lbs heavier than a Z06. The Z06 was 9 MPH behind the Mac, but 9 MPH ahead of the E-ray. If the weight gain is kept to the lower side, the ZR1 should be competitive with that HP gain. Who knows, maybe they'll gear the ZR1 correctly and gain a little there.
Like I said previously the numbers are skewed because the winds were blowing 180* in the E-Ray vs 750S and the Z06 vs 765LT races. The Mac’s have only a 15 hp difference, so that isn’t 4 mph difference in the finish and the 750S went 2mph faster in the 1/4. The 1/4 mile trap speed was higher for the E-Ray/750S and then the finish speed slower because of the increased drag from wind, opposite is true in the case of the Z06/765 where it had a head wind for 1/4 and then tail wind for finish speed. So I’d say the 14mph difference in the 1/4 is a better comparison and a ZR1 with even 820hp isn’t closing that gap imho as it isn’t 10hp/mph at this level.
Like I said previously the numbers are skewed because the winds were blowing 180* in the E-Ray vs 750S and the Z06 vs 765LT races. The Mac’s have only a 15 hp difference, so that isn’t 4 mph difference in the finish and the 750S went 2mph faster in the 1/4. The 1/4 mile trap speed was higher for the E-Ray/750S and then the finish speed slower because of the increased drag from wind, opposite is true in the case of the Z06/765 where it had a head wind for 1/4 and then tail wind for finish speed. So I’d say the 14mph difference in the 1/4 is a better comparison and a ZR1 with even 820hp isn’t closing that gap imho as it isn’t 10hp/mph at this level.
And don't forget the aero the z06 which made it worse going head on.
I'm almost certain we'll see a U-drag of the ERAY vs z06. It doesn't make sense not to do that.
And don't forget the aero the z06 which made it worse going head on.
I'm almost certain we'll see a U-drag of the ERAY vs z06. It doesn't make sense not to do that.
Yes, they should like they did with the Stingray which according to their results was only 3 mph slower than the E-Ray at the finish though it was 10mph slower in the 1/4 which both are skewed because of the wind switching.
I think it's already happening lol. I was doing research and some people are saying edmunds are currently filming!! Or maybe it was already done filming and they're editing.
I expect this video within the next 2-3 weeks.
ERAY will beat the z06 out of the hole. I think the braking and cornering speed of the z06 will better, then ERAY will have better exit acceleration and z06 should catch it up top.
I think z06 wins that match and traps the same 144-146. ERAY traps 139-141.
I think it's already happening lol. I was doing research and some people are saying edmunds are currently filming!! Or maybe it was already done filming and they're editing.
I expect this video within the next 2-3 weeks.
ERAY will beat the z06 out of the hole. I think the braking and cornering speed of the z06 will better, then ERAY will have better exit acceleration and z06 should catch it up top.
I think z06 wins that match and traps the same 144-146. ERAY traps 139-141.
Gotcha, I agree and believe the biggest reason for the Z06 beating it to the finish is because the battery/electric motor will be petering out on the return.
Gotcha, I agree and believe the biggest reason for the Z06 beating it to the finish is because the battery/electric motor will be petering out on the return.
They commented it was at 50% after the first run. So I have faith that the battery will be fine. The issue is that there isn't as much advantage for the ER on the return trip, since it's already rolling at speed coming around the corner. So far less motor boost for the return trip than starting from a dig.
They commented it was at 50% after the first run. So I have faith that the battery will be fine. The issue is that there isn't as much advantage for the ER on the return trip, since it's already rolling at speed coming around the corner. So far less motor boost for the return trip than starting from a dig.
So it’s the electric motor petering out not the battery? The car clearly doesn’t make 15hp less than the Z06 as it’d have similar mph results as the difference in the 750/765.
So it’s the electric motor petering out not the battery? The car clearly doesn’t make 15hp less than the Z06 as it’d have similar mph results as the difference in the 750/765.
I'd say yes, it's the motor gassing. Until someone actually puts it on a non-linked dyno and does some pulls to see where the motor power curve is on its own--I don't think we're going to have accurate data. The best we can do is subtract SR pulls from the ER pulls and guessimate about where the motor is. And I'm really, really curious about what this looks like with 1st gear pulls vs 2nd, 3rd, or 4th gear pulls--given that the motor is geared for down-low (and low speed) grunt. ICE won't vary nearly as much as a motor will--if the motor is programmed to reduce or cut power at certain speeds.
As to the 15 hp delta, there's a big difference in how that peak is laid down between the two. And the ER appears in most head's up's to be "grab the early lead and hold on for dear life". Drag isn't what separates a Z and an ER; it's weight and where they can put down power.
p.s.
IDK what the average HP output would be for a u-drag with the Z vs. ER. We know what peak numbers are. But I'm guessing that average HP probably has a bigger delta between the two--especially since a long straight is the ideal condition for the LT6.
I'd say yes, it's the motor gassing. Until someone actually puts it on a non-linked dyno and does some pulls to see where the motor power curve is on its own--I don't think we're going to have accurate data. The best we can do is subtract SR pulls from the ER pulls and guessimate about where the motor is. And I'm really, really curious about what this looks like with 1st gear pulls vs 2nd, 3rd, or 4th gear pulls--given that the motor is geared for down-low (and low speed) grunt. ICE won't vary nearly as much as a motor will--if the motor is programmed to reduce or cut power at certain speeds.
As to the 15 hp delta, there's a big difference in how that peak is laid down between the two. And the ER appears in most head's up's to be "grab the early lead and hold on for dear life". Drag isn't what separates a Z and an ER; it's weight and where they can put down power.
p.s.
IDK what the average HP output would be for a u-drag with the Z vs. ER. We know what peak numbers are. But I'm guessing that average HP probably has a bigger delta between the two--especially since a long straight is the ideal condition for the LT6.
The dyno for the E-Ray I saw had it making 525/600 full charge, then 475/600 when battery was running low. Seems like it’s “governed” to 600rwtq regardless and then drops around 50hp which explains the delta between the 1/4 trap speed and return finish trap speed as the U-drag is basically 1900’ down and 1900’ back right? I agree the aero drag and rolling resistance is basically the same with the E-Ray and Z06, so the difference in trap speed is the loss of power in my mind.
Had a Plaid pull up next to me at a stop light and was smart enough not to take the bait. Figured I would make him look foolish launching himself on a surface street in traffic. Being only 0-60 in 3.6, I knew better. He definitely was moving. Drag strip or on the street,,,pretty dang fast off the line.
Had a Plaid pull up next to me at a stop light and was smart enough not to take the bait. Figured I would make him look foolish launching himself on a surface street in traffic. Being only 0-60 in 3.6, I knew better. He definitely was moving. Drag strip or on the street,,,pretty dang fast off the line.
I remember going to the street races in High School and there was a big block ‘69 Camaro there that ran 9s, thought it was crazy to be so fast on street though atleast you could hear it coming and it didn’t weigh near as much as a Plaid. Is there any other production vehicle that accelerates faster than it stops besides it? Maybe the Hummer EV?
Had a Plaid pull up next to me at a stop light and was smart enough not to take the bait. Figured I would make him look foolish launching himself on a surface street in traffic. Being only 0-60 in 3.6, I knew better. He definitely was moving. Drag strip or on the street,,,pretty dang fast off the line.
Never mind just off the line. The car puts down all it's peak torque instantly at the stab of the throttle.
It'll do 60-130 in the upper 4 seconds. It ruined the car community lol
This guy makes the mistake of dynoing in 5th gear; then he does a 4th gear pull, then 3rd; results are about as expected as the power picks up slightly in 3rd probably due to motor back-emf being reduced at 3rd gear speeds.
The electric motors have 3 main operating regions as speed increases, assuming no loss in battery voltage; off-idle from a start up to the motor's base speed, constant torque; as motor speed increases further this constant torque region is followed by linear torque drop with constant power, further speed increases are followed by back-emf power drop. Then. specific to the E-Ray is the 150mph cutoff.
I think the various dyno's have shown all of these regions. If anyone gets a full recording of the dash-displayed motor power from 0-150 then should be able to roughly pick out all of these operating transition points just from the dash. For the E-Ray, gear selection on the dyno will be important to capture what the motor is doing at any given vehicle speed.
^^^
Yep, as you taught me months ago! That is when I plotted the E-Ray Dash electric motor power output display from the 1/4 mile drag race with a Ferrari, Lambo and C8 Z06. Superimposed the dash display E-Ray electric motor hp data with Tesla motor power curves. Some just don't want to understand an EV electric motor output is not like a simple DC ~6000 rpm max motor.
It's not a simple DC max 6000 rpm max electric motor!
That plot in green is right from the Cammisa MC'd Hagerty Video. It was an early preproduction E-Ray in that very professional Video. No way that car came for the test without GM folks! No doubt GM engineers, and marketing folks were not only present, IMO they wrote the Storyboard and all words used in the very tight, very professional video. They had a reason NOT to show the electric motor power as it got close to the ~130 mph trap speed. BUT they had Cammisa (a Pro paid big bucks not some silly YouTuber) say it was well under 100 hp. Can see the power is similar to the Tesla motor power curves I provide.
I also found it cleaver that although it bested the C8 Z06 1/4-mile time (by only a 0.1) they only showed pics of it beating Ferrari and Lambo- NOT the Z06. Nope, GM Marketing folks are smart, don't want folks taking a video clip of the E-Ray beating their own car! BTW in that video, in what they called and unprepared track, the E-Ray dash showed 2.4 seconds 0 to 60.
This guy makes the mistake of dynoing in 5th gear; then he does a 4th gear pull, then 3rd; results are about as expected as the power picks up slightly in 3rd probably due to motor back-emf being reduced at 3rd gear speeds.
The electric motors have 3 main operating regions as speed increases, assuming no loss in battery voltage; off-idle from a start up to the motor's base speed, constant torque; as motor speed increases further this constant torque region is followed by linear torque drop with constant power, further speed increases are followed by back-emf power drop. Then. specific to the E-Ray is the 150mph cutoff.
I think the various dyno's have shown all of these regions. If anyone gets a full recording of the dash-displayed motor power from 0-150 then should be able to roughly pick out all of these operating transition points just from the dash. For the E-Ray, gear selection on the dyno will be important to capture what the motor is doing at any given vehicle speed.
Experienced many dyno pulls at the old shop I worked at, but only experience with electric is RC cars. Your statement of assuming no voltage loss stands out to me as the draw of the E-Rays 2 electric motors is much greater relative to size of the battery pack and is nearly depleted after a 0-150mph run no? With an ICE dynoing in a higher gear will typically put a higher load on the engine for it to show slightly higher numbers as the pull happens more slowly, but you’re saying the lower load of electric on the dyno in a lower gear will show more power as it doesn’t drain the battery as fast?
Experienced many dyno pulls at the old shop I worked at, but only experience with electric is RC cars. Your statement of assuming no voltage loss stands out to me as the draw of the E-Rays 2 electric motors is much greater relative to size of the battery pack and is nearly depleted after a 0-150mph run no? With an ICE dynoing in a higher gear will typically put a higher load on the engine for it to show slightly higher numbers as the pull happens more slowly, but you’re saying the lower load of electric on the dyno in a lower gear will show more power as it doesn’t drain the battery as fast?
No - for the purposes of understanding the various motor power losses. I'm just saying that even if the E-Ray had an infinitely large battery with no voltage drop, the motor would still lose power on the dyno as speed increases due to back emf.
Now, if you factor in battery droop, you'll begin to see additional torque and power losses, and the guy in the video was really confused as to what he was seeing. I think it's important to separate and understand the two losses (back-emf versus battery droop) on dyno runs, because for consistency, every dyno run should really be started with a full battery. On the AWD dyno, it's possible to charge the battery fully just before a pull, using regen - I think they did this in the video. This doesn't eliminate battery droop but it does provide for some consistency from run to run and car to car. As for back-emf, it's a function of the motor and inverter drive.
No - for the purposes of understanding the various motor power losses. I'm just saying that even if the E-Ray had an infinitely large battery with no voltage drop, the motor would still lose power on the dyno as speed increases due to back emf.
Now, if you factor in battery droop, you'll begin to see additional torque and power losses, and the guy in the video was really confused as to what he was seeing. I think it's important to separate and understand the two losses (back-emf versus battery droop) on dyno runs, because for consistency, every dyno run should really be started with a full battery. On the AWD dyno, it's possible to charge the battery fully just before a pull, using regen - I think they did this in the video. This doesn't eliminate battery droop but it does provide for some consistency from run to run and car to car. As for back-emf, it's a function of the motor and inverter drive.
I get the back emf, but not sure how to assign it a value. In the case of the U-drag my point was the battery is being depleted the whole 30+seconds expect during the braking and the corner which means the return run it’s making less power regardless of the increased drag from wind direction changing from tail to head which exacerbates the delta even more. Another thing I believe that has to be considered at some point is even though electric isn’t affected by DA there’s still optimum temperatures for electricity to flow most efficiently, too cold nor too hot is good and manufacturers put limits on the latter I know from experience with a Plaid on a road course.
I get the back emf, but not sure how to assign it a value. In the case of the U-drag my point was the battery is being depleted the whole 30+seconds expect during the braking and the corner which means the return run it’s making less power regardless of the increased drag from wind direction changing from tail to head which exacerbates the delta even more. Another thing I believe that has to be considered at some point is even though electric isn’t affected by DA there’s still optimum temperatures for electricity to flow most efficiently, too cold nor too hot is good and manufacturers put limits on the latter I know from experience with a Plaid on a road course.
Battery being more depleted during the return leg doesn't matter unless it is literally choking power output from the motor.
I do not believe that even with the limited capacity of the batteries in the ER, that the motor is capable of blasting through the entire charge 30 seconds. I think GM intentionally sized the motor for output of an intended mean duration--based on that battery capacity. So the down leg may go from 80-60% and the return leg may go from 60-30%. But you still have battery and the motor wouldn't be starved of power.
04-09-2024, 08:09 PM
