JerryU

Yea that's it- Magic!

• Let's see when I was an engineering undergraduate in 1960 we would soon have fusion power!
• Yep the World's limited supply of Lithium is just one way to make rechargeable battery. There are 118 elements in the Periodic table, we just need to try some others.
• Gold is 79 in the Periodic Table and Lead 82. Just need to remove a few protons! That should be a snap. Merlin in 540 said it could be done, we must have forgotten.
• Heck just need to go to Outerspace and we'll find "dilithium crystals!" Bet Elon Musk has his folks working on that now!

Yep, just have a need and scientists will develop a solution! And if they can't the much smarter lawyers who became politicians surely will!

Mary and Company, no need to worry, you have the right business plan as in just the next decade somebody will have the solution so you can ONLY make EV cars by 2035!

BUT I am not counting on it since AOC says, unless we get China, India (now Germany and many others) to stop using coal to produce electric power, have all our homes so well insulated with no windows, are eating only things that don't produce Methane, the Earth will die in 12 years.

And I recently calculated one I have not heard all these brilliant folks define as the real reason for excess CO2! All 8 billion folks on Earth are inhaling 0.04%, while exhaling 4% CO2 or 100 times more. That's all we need to do, eliminate people! That will let or those poor animals live. Well, all except the millions of birds killed by the latest great electric power generation idea, hugely expensive, 400-foot high wind towers off our coats! Who needs those stinking birds they kill anyway!

BTW, lots of money to be made making all those towers! My former company, one of the largest WW suppliers of welding machines and filler metals has the business in Europe where they are being made! Will make a lot of money as will the politicians (or their families) who have already invested in the producers! Not too late, my former company went public in April 2022! Be interesting to see who bought shares!

jivor

Jerry, you're a dinosaur, you have a clear political bias, and you are very confident in your opinions. But you are not as right as you think you are. This section is for ERay discussion, but I see you threadcrapping over and over on all these discussions like it's your job. I know nothing I say will make a lick of difference to your point of view and exceptional ego. Time to add another blowhard to the blocked list.

Majestic94

Chevy Volts also had 40% of the battery capacity locked out. It’s not really sustainable to double the weight of the battery to protect the other half of the battery.

Majestic94

It’s also not inconceivable that those things will never happen. For every problem you solve another one will open, otherwise this all would have been accomplished long ago.

Majestic94

What’s really odd is offering a tax incentive for something that demand outpaces supply. Now they want even more demand? Tesla has been doing fine with no tax credit at all.

The goofy way the tax credit is proposed to be structured, very few cars or people will qualify anyway.

Currently EV’s have increased in price far higher and faster than their gas counterparts and are harder to get with longer wait times. Raw material prices for EV’s have exponentially been increasing with all the new EV’s coming online. GM and all the others trying to commit 100% to this unsustainable industry are going to inevitably find themselves getting bailed out again.

JerryU

Yep, lots of experience and just logical. My politics are just not stupidly following silly irrational positions!

Hopefully my next Vette will be the "performance E Ray ASAP!" Been saying that since it was leaked in December 2019 and article posted here. Great pic and info in that document I have posted many times. Oh EV's will sometime take over but in the meantime just hate to see stupid things done! Should do all practical to produce nonpolluting power, Nuclear, solar, hydropower etc. In the meantime, all for replacing all coal with natural gas with 1/2 the CO2/BTU AND clean- no acid rain! We're less than 20% coal now and switching rapidly!! Too bad China, who produce 40% more electricity than we do, is going the other way! India with 75% coal fired power plants is worse!

mazurekd

Hey, some of us appreciate his point of view. Ease up.

St!ngray

Except GM was not developing Ultium batteries and Motors at that time. The article leaked is very old and I cannot see Mary Barra using anything but Ultium products on the ERAY.
Which means the motors will be a pair of 86 or a single 180 or 255. The battery pack will be a T form set into the tunnel which can be anywhere from 10 to 15kW.

JerryU

Oh, you think this move to EV's was not known in 2019 when they were no doubt discussing with the South Korean's who are their "battery partner" and have the technology! Heck Mary Barra said two years ago they were bypassing hybrids and going to EVs! The only reason we're getting this one is it was planned from ~2012 at the start of the C8 design when the government report (and EPA Press Release) said the Corvette family will be required by law to get ~40 mpg in 2025!

Takes a long time to develop new technology! 2019 is not that long ago. IF this turns out to be (as I expect) a "performance only" Hybrid as was defined, it will have a small battery (really makes no difference- fine it can be an Ultium for Marketing Reasons!) It's basically a Lithium Ion base battery that is supposed to use less Cobalt! Will it be a plug-in for Marketing reasons- yep could and like the first Ferrari SF90, it could go 11 miles on just batteries!

An article by Don Sherman (great automotive writer, engineer, race car driver with high level GM contacts) in SAE International last year said it's two 50 hp motors back-to-back. Very logical as easiest way to set torque separately to each front wheel when accelerating out of an apex! It does not have to be GM's motors. Heck they won't make that many E Rays! What is coming out next year was to be the first of several. The only way to get the mpg requirement what was to be law for the Corvette (and all cars defined by family - NOT MANUFATURER) in 2017 when it was stopped was a full, all-out Hybrid. That requires starting the ICE AFTER the car reaches 30 to 40 mph with electric power only. As Newton defined that is where the most energy is used, getting a body into motion! That would have been required by 2025!

We'll see what comes out. Now if my "guess" is right and the GM Pres said a few months ago a full EV Vette will follow, agree it will have the GM batteries and motor(s.) IMO they are pushing the EV because they know they are in trouble with their ALL EV's ONLY for cars and light trucks by 2035! Yep we may see a C8 EV since the design is on earth. Just replace the LT2, Fuel Tanks and DCT with GM Ultium batteries and some in front. Use several "GM Motors." Can keep the trunk! This EV Vette is NOT for the 30,000 Vettes sold per year it's the 2.5 million cars GM produces every year is in trouble IF the public rejects 100% EV's!

Pic and data from December 2019 article! In a car design life cycle, 2019 is NOT that old! The specific dada re wheels etc was right on! Yep most of us thought it would be called the Grand Sport BUT looks like GM changed to E-Ray recently!

St!ngray

The article was leak in 2019 but read your own sentence"The only reason we're getting this one is it was planned from ~2012 at the start of the C8 design when the government report (and EPA Press Release) said the Corvette family will be required by law to get ~40 mpg in 2025!"
An ERAY PHEV is the only way to go, otherwise GM looks pretty foolish designing 10-year-old technology for a 2024 model year car, that will probably be able to order spring summer of 2023.
It better have the Ultium motors and batteries, now if GM wants to stick with the 1.94 or 2kWh battery pack fine, but the savings of a few pounds' vs a 10 to 15kWh pack makes GM look foolish on their Marqui sports car.

lostsoul

Ho LEE Min *** ..

I looked around and found the new EV stuff.. Looks like the $55K for "sedans" (is a corvette one?lol) is unchanged. So you can now buy the bottom of the heap Telsa 3 no options and one or 2 poppy GM vehicles ... maybe

Look at this heap of mess.. who can figure this out?? This wont help us "Disenfranchised" non Z06 buyers.. If your going to rob all tax payers then spread it out evenly... I hate EVs now New Vehicle Credit

1. Manufacturer caps eliminated. (Page 370, line 15)
2. Credit applies for vehicles purchased beginning January 1, 2023. (Page 386, line 1).
3. Transition provision for EVs with written sales orders dated in 2022 prior to the date of President signing the bill but delivered in 2023 allows purchaser to claim the “old” credit in 2023. (Page 386, line 20).
4. Vehicle must be assembled in North America to qualify for new credit. (Page 366, line 15).
5. North American assembly requirement applies to vehicles sold after the date of adoption of the bill. (Page 386, line 3)
6. $7,500 credit is broke into two binary pieces meaning the vehicle either qualifies for each piece of the credit or it doesn’t. No longer based on size of battery. (Page 366, line 6)
7. $3,750 of the new credit is based upon the vehicle having at least 40% of its battery critical minerals from the United States or countries with a free trade agreement with the United States. This is a list of countries with free trade agreements with the US.(Page 371)
8. The other $3,750 of the new credit is based on at least 50% of the battery components of the vehicle coming from the United States or countries with a free trade agreement with the US. (Page 372, line 13)
9. The 40% minerals requirement increases to 50% in 2024, 60% in 2025, 70% in 2026 and 80% in 2027. (page 371 line 23)
10. The 50% battery components requirement increases to 60% in 2024, 70% in 2026, 80% in 2027, 90% in 2028 and 100% in 2029. (Page line 373)
11. The government has until the end of the year to develop guidance on the battery requirements. (Page 374)
12. Beginning in 2025, any vehicle with battery minerals or components from a foreign entity of concern are excluded from the tax credit. (Page 374, line 20).
13. One credit per vehicle. (Page 375, line 12)
14. Modified gross income limit of $150k for individuals, $225k for head of household, and $300k for joint returns. Definition of MAGI (page 375, line 22)
15. MSRP of vehicle must be $80k or less for SUVs, Vans and Trucks. $55k for all other vehicles. (Page 377, line 4)
16. Dealer can apply credit at time of sale. Dealer must disclose to buyer the MSRP of the vehicle, the applicable tax credit amount and the amount of any other available incentive applicable to the purchase. (Page 378, line 6)
17. Credit terminates December 31, 2032.

Used Vehicle Credit

1. Tax credit of 30% of value of used EV with $4,000 cap (Page 387, line 23).
2. Used vehicle must be at least two model years old at time of sale. (Page 389, line 7).
3. The original use of the vehicle must have occurred with an individual other than the one claiming the used tax credit. (Page 389, line 10).
4. Used vehicle must be purchased from a dealer. (Page 390, line 3).
5. Used vehicle price must be $25k or less. (Page 390, line 5).
6. Used vehicle qualifies for tax credit only once in its lifetime. (Page 390, line 7)
7. Purchaser must be an individual (no businesses) to qualify for used credit. (Page 390, line 14).
8. Purchaser may only claim one used vehicle credit per three years. (Page 390, line 20).
9. Modified gross income cap of $75k for individuals, $112,500 for head of household and $150k for joint returns. (Page 388).
10. Credit may be applied at time of sale by dealer. (Page 391, line 15).
11. Credit terminates on December 31, 2032. (Page 391, line 12).

JerryU

It's NOT 10 years old technology! Ferrari has introduced a number of "Performance Only" hybrids that operate essentially like a F1! No external electric plugs on an F1.

They could also build are a full blown hybrid that gets ~40 mpg and requires big heavy batteries AND starting the ICE AFTER the electric power brings the car to 30 to 40 mph in normal cruising. Some may want that, I don't! Want the lightest battery possible to use the 100 hp FWD hp for acceleration in a straight line and when and leaving an apex. Don't need a big battery to plug in overnight. There is that market being filled well by a Prius etc. As I say like the early Ferrari SF90 that could drive 11 miles on only electric power! GM might have a 110 volt plug so folks feel good and brag about their "plugging-in" to drive 5 miles to the Country Club! I chuckle at the latest 2022 Ferrari SF90 Stradale EV only mile range of 15 up from 11 when launched BUT with a much heavier 7.9 kWh battery versus the E-Ray leaked 1.9 kWh!

Frankly it's obvious GM is following the current government view that better mph is not enough we must have zero fossil fuels. Marry's taking federal funds to help! I think the GM mgt is making a big mistake!

There was a pic some time ago showing E-Ray test cars. One had what the writer said might be a power receptacle. Yep folks could brag they have a plug-in hybrid on that 1.92 kWhr battery!

jivor

"Hey, some of us appreciate his point of view. Ease up."

No, I don't think so. You are free to express point of view, but if you plan on highlighting your dislike of electric tech, and drag your politics into it along with a substantial amount of cherry picked information, you add nothing to this thread, take it to another section. I see the same cut and paste nonsense repeated ad nauseam. You know, if you don't like it, don't buy it, but don't expect me to appreciate disdain of BEVs/hybrids on a thread discussing electric tech. With a projected 515 billion (USD) being invested in BEVs worldwide through 2030 alone, there is a vast incentive to source materials and build charging infrastructure or develop alternatives, and believe me, all these massive corporations will do so, just like they did with ICEs.

PRE-Z06

So Tesla and Government Motors recently ran out of EV tax credits and now in the name of climate change we must pass this to continue the subsidizing as they can’t fail right?

msm859

Not sure if you read the limitations but basically right the ONLY way. this offers any real help to Tesla is if the Model Y is classified as a SUV. Otherwise the only car that would qualify is the base Model 3 - which I suspect very few actually buy. However, if it causes Tesla to drop the price of the LR 3 to under $55k - @ 3k it could offer a real benefit. Likewise if the Model Y is a "SUV" then that would help a lot of people. And the idea is not to help Tesla - or GM - but to help people buy an EV who otherwise might not be able to afford one.

Majestic94

Jerry doesn’t have a disdain for EV’s. He’s been showing the same leaked hybrid C8 info for years on like every other thread and not in a bad way. Anybody who just now found out about the E-Ray has been living under a rock.
If you read past your own distain for anybody who doesn’t want to go plug something in, he’s actually advocating for a performance hybrid vs a useless PHEV that has similar performance for less weight.

Not sure what worldwide EV investment has to do with E-Rays.

Majestic94

Then there’s the confusion if the $6k or $12k Autopilot software add ons count as MSRP. Even classified as a SUV with the $80k price cap would be a struggle for the Model Y especially at the rate Tesla’s been raising prices.

I think this is the worst part of this new EV bill that wreaks of government micromanagement. They’re penalizing manufacturers and buyers for not making only SUVs. Why hold cars to a lower price cap? I personally think they should discourage dumb crap like 9k lb electric Hummers and 1000hp Plaids if they really want to show they care about the environment and so we don’t end up with an EV arms race as to who can consume the most raw material resources the quickest. Some charging stations already have long lines, I’d hate to be the guy waiting for someone to charge their 212 kWh Hummer.

Same thing with the CAFE standard: If the government really cared about climate change they would hold trucks and SUVs that the same CAFE standards as cars. The easiest way to burn less fossil fuel is not encourage 80% of the country to buy trucks and SUVs. Or I dunno, give tax breaks to companies who have their employees work from home. Maybe we wouldn’t need to spend so much repairing our roads if we didn’t encourage 9K lb electric Hummers to drive on them (who use no gas and pay no road taxes).

The government always seems to find the most expensive and complicated solution to simple problems.

Majestic94

Why would it need to be a PHEV to qualify as not looking foolish? Do you really want to drive a silent 4000lb, front wheel drive C8 with less than 100 hp in electric mode? What the hell is the point?

PRE-Z06

I thought the model 3 was their top selling platform and the model Y was a midsize SUV?

JerryU

Hmm, politics as such has nothing to do with my logical statements re we're pissing in the Ocean thinking we're doing the World a great service even if tomorrow all US cars were EV! Heck my CA family (daughter, granddaughter, grandson, their spouses and my 2 great grandsons) has several Prii, $100,000 worth of solar cells on their roof (albeit 16,000 square foot home.) Have driven theirs and rented one to go from LA to San Diego- was great! Bet I'll have my E-Ray Hybrid before you! My C8 will be ~4 years old if I'm lucky to get an early one! Don't keep them long, rather have GM deal with any issue on warranty!

A transition to EV is fine BUT not foolishly stopping all fossil fuel use for cars while China, India, now Germany etc. use coal with twice the CO2 emissions/BTU of energy as Natural Gas! We could be supplying Natural Gas to much of the World and cut CO2 emissions rapidly! BUT nope, the average person "doesn't understand," and we will have to convince them it's zero fossil fuels or nothing! (Suggest you look up some facts, like Natual Gas produces half the CO2 emissions/BTU of energy as Coal. That CO2 is only 0.04% in the air we breathe in and we exhale 4%. Yep all 8 million of us!)

Fortunately, we don't have a media like China and Russia where my posts might be blocked (although some in the US are similar!)