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My car is a 2017 M7 Z06 with a Vengeance Stage 3 build minus the Mighty Mouse catch can. I’m having a difficult time deciding between 2 different build options at 2 very well known shops. The car dyno'd at 695.37 wheel horsepower and 689.10 wheel torque.
The car is rarely driven as I have several other fun cars. The car will see races/events in the ¼ mile, ½ mile, and occasional races in Mexico.
Option 1 would include the following:
DSX flex fuel sensor
DSX low side fuel system
DSX 9.84% lower pulley and belt
Complete cam kit
CPR expansion tank
Mighty Mouse catch can
*This option promises the ability to run 100% E-85 and any combination of 93 and E-85. I am told that this will make a minimum of 780-800 whp on E-85 and around 730ish whp on 93.
Option 2 would include the following:
TSP heads/cam package
CPR trunk tank
CPR 5 inch intake
DSX 9.84% lower pulley and belt
CPR trunk tank
Mighty Mouse catch can
Auxiliary low side fuel system
*With option 2, I am told that the car will make between 770-790 whp. This option is about $1200 dollars more expensive than option 1 but ensures improved cooling.
Both options promise similar power at a similar price there are definitely pros and cons to each. I would love to hear some feedback and opinions. Both cam packages include 32% fuel lobe upgrade and identical cam specs.
One shop ensures me that running 100% E-85 with the aforementioned setup (option 1) is 100% safe. This shop is probably the biggest name or at least 1 of the top 2-3 biggest names in the GM aftermarket world. This shop also told me that there will not be any cooling issues with the upgraded heat exchanger (already installed) and the CPR expansion tank.
Last but not least, a Monster LT1-S triple disc clutch kit will be installed with this round of mods.
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The other shop (option 2) says that 100% E-85 cannot be ran safely on either of the aforementioned builds. This shop also told me that the CPR expansion tank will do little to help cooling, especially in comparison to the CPR trunk tank.
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Eventually, I will upgrade to the 2650 supercharger which would make the trunk tank (an expensive part of the build) not necessary. Unfortunately, upgrading to the 2650 is several thousands more than I plan to spend at this time.
Last but not least, a Monster LT1-S triple disc clutch kit will be installed with this round of mods.
I am personally am not a fan of E-85. It can be woefully inconsistent at the pump (sometimes it is really E-85, sometimes it is not). And unless you commit to running E-85 all the time, you have to then "plan" on when you want the benefit of E-85 and visit the E-85 pump accordingly (so you dont end up with a mix of 93 octane and E-85 in the tank and then are not able to take advantage of a straight E-85).
Manifold air temp cooling is absolute key to making consistent power.
Option 2 looks more appealing to me if it were my money.
I really appreciate all of the feedback/replies! The tune offered from this company will be a flex fuel tune - which would allow me to run any mixture of 93/E-85.
I definitely understand the struggles of finding quality ethanol based fuels and the testing of E-85 to ensure quality. My 18 Mustang Gt started off as a flex fuel, full bolt-on car. The quality of the E-85 is not as important when you are able to run any mixture of E-85/93. Now that my Mustang has a Whipple supercharger and a Fore fuel system, it is tuned for solely E-85 - which proves to be more challenging.
Option one.
E-85 is great, and with the flex fuel sensor you can travel and gas up ANYWHERE you want. You're getting race fuel at less than the cost of regular. The cam will sound bitching.
My only other suggestion is DO NOT use a Monster clutch. From experience, they suck. Many other better choices out there.
Wayne
Option one.
E-85 is great, and with the flex fuel sensor you can travel and gas up ANYWHERE you want. You're getting race fuel at less than the cost of regular. The cam will sound bitching.
My only other suggestion is DO NOT use a Monster clutch. From experience, they suck. Many other better choices out there.
Wayne
Thank you for the input!
Unfortunately, I already have the clutch. Both of the shops mentioned above suggested the Monster LT1-S triple disc. Which clutch do you recommend?
Do you foresee any cooling issues if I choose option 1?
This build process is more difficult than several of my other builds on different platforms simply because each shop that I have spoken with has completely different perspectives. The shop that suggested option 1 promises the ability to run 100% E-85 without cooling issues using the CPR expansion tank. The shop that put together option 2 states that 100% E-85 cannot be safely ran on either option 1 or option 2 and that the trunk tank is necessary to prevent cooling issues.
All of the advice and input provided on the forum has been really helpful. Any additional suggestions or input will be appreciated.
Regardless of what you do with cooling I would do e85 if you have access to it. 65hp for 1300 or so plus $2 /gal is worth it to me since there’s 2 stations right by me. One has 80 and I usually am around 65-70% at the other.
I have a vengeance car also. Made 750 on 93 and 815 on e85 with that same monster clutch and have zero complaints at all, drives like stock.
Since this thread is still going I will also add that when I changed cams, did heads, it was very rewarding to me. It's my favorite mod so far. In fact I just changed it again, went to one better suited to drag racing where my last cam was better for road racing. And it was installed on a better lobe center. The bottom end torque is unbelieveable with the new set up and we haven't even really tuned it for it just yet. I'm getting at least 500 miles on it and changing the break in oil before the final tunes are done.
Last edited by Thomasmoto; 01-08-2020 at 11:35 AM.
Regardless of what you do with cooling I would do e85 if you have access to it. 65hp for 1300 or so plus $2 /gal is worth it to me since there’s 2 stations right by me. One has 80 and I usually am around 65-70% at the other.
I have a vengeance car also. Made 750 on 93 and 815 on e85 with that same monster clutch and have zero complaints at all, drives like stock.
I actually followed your build! Very impressed with the results! I do have local access to E-85. If I choose option 1, my car will probably make a little less power than your car because I do not intend to do heads.
I do have a couple questions for you - Do you ever run a mixture of E-85 and 93? How are the cold starts with E-85?
I plan to schedule everything within the next couple weeks. I will post my decision as well as the results once I have them.
Option one.
E-85 is great, and with the flex fuel sensor you can travel and gas up ANYWHERE you want. You're getting race fuel at less than the cost of regular. The cam will sound bitching.
My only other suggestion is DO NOT use a Monster clutch. From experience, they suck. Many other better choices out there.
Wayne
Yes. E85 is basically the same as running 105 octave and the power benefit and cooling is awesome. When you add the sensor and tune correctly E85 is phenomenal because the car automatically adjusts for whatever mix of e85 you are running. It’s awesome.
By my house Most e85 is actually e70 because of Illinois requirements for additives. There is one station that consistently runs e80. However, once you have the time dialed in, you can run anything from e85 to e10 (normal 93 octane).
Only put about 1500 miles on the setup so far just street driving and the occasional rip on the interstate. I have that tuner thing behind the nav screen that I look at when I fill up. I’ve ran the full range between 10-80% and it runs perfectly throughout.
There’s definitely a change in cold starts after the work/on e85 vs stock. I just a second or 2 longer sometimes but it comes with the territory I guess.
Although i dont race and all that I want to do a next round of mods myself. 2650, cooling upgrades and the high pressure pump and 30% injectors. It will be completely unnecessary though since the car is already an animal on the street but it would be cool to see 1000-1100 rwhp. Good luck with your upgrades, as long as vengeance is doing it I think you’ll be happy. They know their stuff and wouldn’t steer you wrong.
You will make more power on E85 PERIOD. Do all of the cooling stuff if you want....but definitely do E85. E85 fuel brings its own o2, it makes power and its much less prone to detonation. This could be the difference in melting a piston or not. As you mentioned with the flex sensor, the E85 % is not THAT critical...as long as its in the ball park. There isn't that much difference from E70 to E85.... Unless you live far from an E85 station, I would definitely do it. More power, safer, runs cleaner, plugs stay clean, even the tail pipes will stay clean.
I had terrible experiences with Monster clutches, but, that was 3 years ago. HOPEFULLY, they have gotten better products. Myself, I would go with a Mantic clutch. Worth the extra money. As most on this thread, I'd still go with Option 1, but add a CPR heat exchanger to the mix.
I appreciate all of the replies! I am leaning towards option 1. I personally have had great experiences with E-85 on the Ford platform. One of my biggest concerns was whether or not the CPR expansion tank would provide adequate cooling with the 9.84% lower pulley and stock upper. I do have the low temp thermostat as well as CPR heat exchanger already installed. Adding the CPR trunk tank is an option that I wanted to avoid due to the cost and the fact that it won't be as necessary when I upgrade to the 2650 down the road.
There are definitely pros and cons to each of the options from respected companies/shops! Hearing the opinions of others with similar set-ups/experiences has been extremely helpful!
I appreciate all of the replies! I am leaning towards option 1. I personally have had great experiences with E-85 on the Ford platform. One of my biggest concerns was whether or not the CPR expansion tank would provide adequate cooling with the 9.84% lower pulley and stock upper. I do have the low temp thermostat as well as CPR heat exchanger already installed. Adding the CPR trunk tank is an option that I wanted to avoid due to the cost and the fact that it won't be as necessary when I upgrade to the 2650 down the road.
There are definitely pros and cons to each of the options from respected companies/shops! Hearing the opinions of others with similar set-ups/experiences has been extremely helpful!
You didn't mention if you are planning on running meth or not but...It will help you in many ways, primarily it'll help keep the IATs from going too crazy..., it provides high octane which will give you additional safety...and it helps bridge the gap on the injectors/high side pressure pump if you're running full E85.
So in addition to your option 1, add meth.
As for the big trunk tank....sure it works well in race conditions and serves its purpose but... I think the money would be better spent on an engine compartment style water tank and a CPR 5" CAI. That'll help option 1 hit 800 rwhp…. and you won't have to listen water slushing around inside your car all of the time.
FWIW, my car with the 18% lower, ported stock blower and stock heat exchanger and pump, only a larger intercooler reservoir under the hood and dual nozzle meth system maintain 150-155* MATS, that is better then what it did stock. Works plenty well on the street, I've logged a bunch of pulls...it never pulls more then 4-5* of timing even on its hottest, back to back pulls. Usually it doesn't pull any timing and the stays in the 150-151* MAT range.
Now if you are gonna be racing on a road course or doing 1 mile pulls etc, then by all means, add the trunk tank etc...
You didn't mention if you are planning on running meth or not but...It will help you in many ways, primarily it'll help keep the IATs from going too crazy..., it provides high octane which will give you additional safety...and it helps bridge the gap on the injectors/high side pressure pump if you're running full E85.
So in addition to your option 1, add meth.
As for the big trunk tank....sure it works well in race conditions and serves its purpose but... I think the money would be better spent on an engine compartment style water tank and a CPR 5" CAI. That'll help option 1 hit 800 rwhp…. and you won't have to listen water slushing around inside your car all of the time.
FWIW, my car with the 18% lower, ported stock blower and stock heat exchanger and pump, only a larger intercooler reservoir under the hood and dual nozzle meth system maintain 150-155* MATS, that is better then what it did stock. Works plenty well on the street, I've logged a bunch of pulls...it never pulls more then 4-5* of timing even on its hottest, back to back pulls. Usually it doesn't pull any timing and the stays in the 150-151* MAT range.
Now if you are gonna be racing on a road course or doing 1 mile pulls etc, then by all means, add the trunk tank etc...
I actually did not mention that. I am not open to using meth injection or nitrous. I understand the benefits of meth, it's just not something that I am interested in at the time.
Thanks for the data! I assume that your low MAT data is heavily dependent upon the meth...?
If I can achieve comparable data with the use of a trunk tank, I will lean towards adding one.
In addition to option 1, I will more than likely add the CPR 5 inch intake that you suggested or the CPR trunk tank instead of the CPR expansion tank.
I do not foresee any road racing with this car in the future.
01-06-2020, 02:33 PM
Round 2 of mods...Option 1 or Option 2?
