Z06 Retest at Laguna Seca Today
01-07-2016, 08:46 PM
#441
Le Mans Master
Last edited by DRLC5; 01-07-2016 at 08:47 PM.
01-07-2016, 09:07 PM
#442
Heel & Toe
Dear God- Thank you for crazy fast cars to give us something to argue about. Please keep gas cheap. Also, I am still waiting for your answer on which is best, 9mm, .40, or .45. Amen.
hehe.
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DRLC5 (01-08-2016)
01-07-2016, 11:05 PM
#444
Pro
Member Since: Aug 2015
Location: Surprise Arizona
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St. Jude Donor '16
When a .22 can penetrate human skull, .9 is effective enough to be not jist "cute". Common ego thinking that you need a larger caliber to be able to defend yourself.
99% of the time just brandishing a weapon is effective enough to dissuade an attack, let alone fireing.
99% of the time just brandishing a weapon is effective enough to dissuade an attack, let alone fireing.
01-07-2016, 11:39 PM
#445
Race Director
Im fairly sure there was a test where they had the A8 and M7 and the M7 blew the doors off the A8. Like 1.5 seconds or something. Wasnt it buttonwillow or something? There is a reason GM used a manual for their VIR lap. The road atlanta event was a press event. ViR was all business.
The Viper had slower conering speeds vs the lap record time. Looks like a combination of a green track with no rubber layed down, SRT likely having shaved tires and a far more optimized setup (and engineers setting the car up just right for the conditions with many laps driven), and maybe a kickback for Randy setting a fast lap.
Dont forget the hoopla when the ZR1 beat the base Viper the first time they ran at Laguna. When SRT returned with that same Viper and a TA Randy went MUCH faster in the private test than he did in the head to head. Then when they did another head to head (or maybe it was best drivers car or the open laguna lap test) later, he was slower again near the same time he ran in the first test.
Either SRT engineers have some special sauce or the factory cars are just set up better than the media cars.
The Viper had slower conering speeds vs the lap record time. Looks like a combination of a green track with no rubber layed down, SRT likely having shaved tires and a far more optimized setup (and engineers setting the car up just right for the conditions with many laps driven), and maybe a kickback for Randy setting a fast lap.
Dont forget the hoopla when the ZR1 beat the base Viper the first time they ran at Laguna. When SRT returned with that same Viper and a TA Randy went MUCH faster in the private test than he did in the head to head. Then when they did another head to head (or maybe it was best drivers car or the open laguna lap test) later, he was slower again near the same time he ran in the first test.
Either SRT engineers have some special sauce or the factory cars are just set up better than the media cars.
01-07-2016, 11:48 PM
#446
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
I feel like the biggest reason Randy set the Laguna Seca lap time Chris Winkler (?) is because it's more comparable to other LS lap times. Pretty much every lap time at Laguna has been set by Randy, including the 918 and P1.
01-07-2016, 11:54 PM
#447
Race Director
I would not be surprised if the Z07 in this test checked out to be out of alignment, just like previous times. Why would I say that? Because if you review all the Track Reports here about the C7Z, absent is a high number of Oversteer in corner entry comments like Randy mentioned.
It's unfortunate that we will probably never know.
Note to GM - redesign the mechanics of how Corvettes LOCK IN Alignment and DO IT NOW and forever get this monkey off the Corvettes back to avoid this problem surfacing in the future. More importantly, to get this problem off your CUSTOMERS back. IIRC, C5's and C6's had alignments easily drifting out of spec over time causing all kinds of subtle handling issues when taking the car to the upper handling limits, and it looks like that problem is inherited here in the C7 as well. How many times has GM had to correct it's Test Fleet? We even have members receiving cars fresh from the factory with alignments out of whack.
Not saying this is why the Vette was 3 seconds slower, but Randy mentioning the oversteer problem multiple times in the same test is seriously off. He didn't mention it in the earlier test and loved the handling back then. It doesn't matter if the power was down on the last test, as he is threshold braking heavy into the corners and the turn in speeds will be the same and results the same no matter what power the engine is making, therefore the result should be the same, which should be great according to his own comments. What do you guys think?
It's unfortunate that we will probably never know.
Note to GM - redesign the mechanics of how Corvettes LOCK IN Alignment and DO IT NOW and forever get this monkey off the Corvettes back to avoid this problem surfacing in the future. More importantly, to get this problem off your CUSTOMERS back. IIRC, C5's and C6's had alignments easily drifting out of spec over time causing all kinds of subtle handling issues when taking the car to the upper handling limits, and it looks like that problem is inherited here in the C7 as well. How many times has GM had to correct it's Test Fleet? We even have members receiving cars fresh from the factory with alignments out of whack.
Not saying this is why the Vette was 3 seconds slower, but Randy mentioning the oversteer problem multiple times in the same test is seriously off. He didn't mention it in the earlier test and loved the handling back then. It doesn't matter if the power was down on the last test, as he is threshold braking heavy into the corners and the turn in speeds will be the same and results the same no matter what power the engine is making, therefore the result should be the same, which should be great according to his own comments. What do you guys think?
However, I think it's more likely that the tires couldn't grip well due to temps and possible light moisture in the air that day. As already stated, that can be a real factor in the Monterey area. I lived there for the about the first 10 years of my life and I had enough cold, damp air to last me the rest of my life...pretty much daily. The different Viper tires, combined with the additional downforce, may have been enough to overcome temps and moisture to a certain extent.
Last edited by Les; 01-07-2016 at 11:55 PM.
01-08-2016, 12:43 AM
#448
Drifting
01-08-2016, 12:57 AM
#449
Le Mans Master
Ah yes our glorious CA gun laws. Super helpful at San Bernardino, Santa Monica College and Santa Barbara. Those lunatics definitely respected the gun fee zones, purchasing protocals, Mental Health questions on the DROS, and hi capacity restrictions when they went on there kill sprees.
01-08-2016, 01:04 AM
#450
Drifting
Ah yes our glorious CA gun laws. Super helpful at San Bernardino, Santa Monica College and Santa Barbara. Those lunatics definitely respected the gun fee zones, purchasing protocals, Mental Health questions on the DROS, and hi capacity restrictions when they went on there kill sprees.
didn't stop those lunatics doesn't mean they didn't stop others...My $0.02
01-08-2016, 01:07 AM
#451
Le Mans Master
If a crazy person wants to kill people, they're going to do it...with a gun, with a home depot/tractor supply bomb, with a car, with a front loader...you can't stop crazy people with laws, only with force.
01-08-2016, 01:09 AM
#452
Le Mans Master
People do a lot of harm to people without guns. A few summers ago a mentally ill transient man mowed down 9 people on the Venice Beach Boardwalk in his car. There where even concrete pillars he drove around to do it.
Last edited by Hirohawa; 01-08-2016 at 01:10 AM.
01-08-2016, 04:42 AM
#453
1. Pobst needs to explain the 2 second difference between the ACR times.
You can't test the same car on the same track with the same driver in nearly identical conditions and not explain why one is 2 seconds quicker. I'm really surprised MT/Pobst are quiet on this. It has to be explained for the results to have any meaning.
2. The C7 Z06 is in all honestly just as fast as the C6 ZR1.
A 0.7 second delta can simply be due to the tire improvements. The ZR1 is quicker in straightline competition and has a marginally better cooling system.
3. GM needs to build a C7 that emphasizes track speed, reliability, and ease of control. The Viper won fairly imo, by appealing to the enthusiasts. A proper loss for the C7 Z.
I just hope GM builds one without having to resort to over the top aero and suspension. Perhaps make it an optional pack.
4. MT trend assumes that a car that is easy to control is also faster. I think that assumption is not always correct. The C7 Z gets really good turn in at the risk of oversteer. It's tougher to drive but I do think it's faster the way it is tuned than if GM softened the rear relatively. Both GM and Porsche tuned their highest offerings this way to extract lap times. It is what it is.
The Viper ACR extreme is a street legal car that I would only drive on the track. I still find it hard to understand the appeal. I would build a proper race car if I only intended to use a car on the track. I suppose you don't need to have a trailer and presumably you can rely on the warranty for repairs. But then you are spending $140,000 on a track only car. Where are the savings?
You can't test the same car on the same track with the same driver in nearly identical conditions and not explain why one is 2 seconds quicker. I'm really surprised MT/Pobst are quiet on this. It has to be explained for the results to have any meaning.
2. The C7 Z06 is in all honestly just as fast as the C6 ZR1.
A 0.7 second delta can simply be due to the tire improvements. The ZR1 is quicker in straightline competition and has a marginally better cooling system.
3. GM needs to build a C7 that emphasizes track speed, reliability, and ease of control. The Viper won fairly imo, by appealing to the enthusiasts. A proper loss for the C7 Z.
I just hope GM builds one without having to resort to over the top aero and suspension. Perhaps make it an optional pack.
4. MT trend assumes that a car that is easy to control is also faster. I think that assumption is not always correct. The C7 Z gets really good turn in at the risk of oversteer. It's tougher to drive but I do think it's faster the way it is tuned than if GM softened the rear relatively. Both GM and Porsche tuned their highest offerings this way to extract lap times. It is what it is.
The Viper ACR extreme is a street legal car that I would only drive on the track. I still find it hard to understand the appeal. I would build a proper race car if I only intended to use a car on the track. I suppose you don't need to have a trailer and presumably you can rely on the warranty for repairs. But then you are spending $140,000 on a track only car. Where are the savings?
http://www.trackhq.com/forums/f303/v...tml#post137920
If you really want an answer to your first question, I'd suggest reading Billy's reply.
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SBC_and_a_stick (01-08-2016)
01-08-2016, 05:31 AM
#454
Safety Car
I hate to weigh in on this thread but my experience is that the C7Z on MPSC2 takes forever for the rear tires to come up to temp if it's cold out.
I don't know how many laps these guys ran but it was at least 3 laps before the car stopped being loose as heck with ambient temps in the 40's. Perhaps that is part of the reason why Randy complained about how loose the car was?
I've also been told that when GM was testing the C7Z at Spring Mountain the first thing they did was stop on the straights and do a set of burn outs to heat up the rear tires so it's not just me.
I don't know how many laps these guys ran but it was at least 3 laps before the car stopped being loose as heck with ambient temps in the 40's. Perhaps that is part of the reason why Randy complained about how loose the car was?
I've also been told that when GM was testing the C7Z at Spring Mountain the first thing they did was stop on the straights and do a set of burn outs to heat up the rear tires so it's not just me.
01-08-2016, 05:43 AM
#455
Drifting
The article is on motortrend with the retest. Timeline is clear. Auto and manual tested on same day. Manual faster.
They do several laps prior to the hot lap. And someone with Randy's ability will get heat in the tires quicker than most. But ultimately my point is that cooler conditions are where the fastest laps usually happen.
They do several laps prior to the hot lap. And someone with Randy's ability will get heat in the tires quicker than most. But ultimately my point is that cooler conditions are where the fastest laps usually happen.
End result from the article is:
"Regardless, the results are clear. When properly aligned and using a softer damper calibration, the Corvette Z06 is as fast as or faster than the GT-R NISMO at Willow Springs. All said and done, the manual Z06 ran a 1:25.00 and the automatic a 1:25.76 to the NISMO’s 1:25.70."
"As Pobst drove the automatic transmission car first, we believe his familiarity with the car and the track ultimately led to the faster lap time for the manual transmission car. Consulting with Chevrolet test driver Jim Mero, we believe the automatic transmission car is capable of equaling the manual transmission car’s time were we to send Pobst out for more laps (we were limited on time). That said, Corvette chief engineer Tadge Juechter recently told Corvette fans the automatic transmission runs hotter and will go into a preservation mode sooner, so he recommends the manual for serious track duty or when the ambient temperature at the track is above 86 degrees."
Article is here: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...11396085,d.eWE
Last edited by tonypittman; 01-08-2016 at 06:11 AM.
01-08-2016, 06:24 AM
#456
Safety Car
Those cars were all not tested on the same day. Motortrend just left out the fact that the manual was faster on the same day as that auto ran 1:25.76. GM wants to sell their auto as faster than PDK so losing to a manual heads up isnt going to help that case.
I do prefer manual but my only point here is to clear up people assuming that the auto is faster becuase of claimed shift times when there is zero evidence to support that. GM ran the manual for their VIR test and it was faster here. Clearly the manual has proven itself on more than one occasion. Best believe if the auto was faster they would have used that at VIR.
I do prefer manual but my only point here is to clear up people assuming that the auto is faster becuase of claimed shift times when there is zero evidence to support that. GM ran the manual for their VIR test and it was faster here. Clearly the manual has proven itself on more than one occasion. Best believe if the auto was faster they would have used that at VIR.
Last edited by heavychevy; 01-08-2016 at 06:29 AM.
01-08-2016, 06:38 AM
#457
Drifting
Those cars were all not tested on the same day. Motortrend just left out the fact that the manual was faster on the same day as that auto ran 1:25.76. GM wants to sell their auto as faster than PDK so losing to a manual heads up isnt going to help that case.
I do prefer manual but my only point here is to clear up people assuming that the auto is faster becuase of claimed shift times when there is zero evidence to support that. GM ran the manual for their VIR test and it was faster here. Clearly the manual has proven itself on more than one occasion. Best believe if the auto was faster they would have used that at VIR.
I do prefer manual but my only point here is to clear up people assuming that the auto is faster becuase of claimed shift times when there is zero evidence to support that. GM ran the manual for their VIR test and it was faster here. Clearly the manual has proven itself on more than one occasion. Best believe if the auto was faster they would have used that at VIR.
"How does the Z06 perform when the rear end is aligned properly? Better. Much better. Recall the car previously did a good-but-not-great 1:27.10 during our comparison test. This time? 1:25.00. A massive 2.1-second difference."
"Critics of our comparison also pointed to the Z06’s manual transmission as a performance inhibition, suggesting the new eight-speed automatic (which we requested but wasn’t available) would perform better. As it happens, in addition to our manual-transmission test car, we also had an automatic-transmission test car on hand this time. It, too, featured the proper suspension alignment and the new Rough Track calibration. Pobst gave it ago, and the result was a best lap of 1:25.76."
In any case, I'm sure buyers will likely be able to find whichever they want. I am sure that only a fraction of a fraction of a % will ever drive the cars close enough to the limits to see the real difference. It's all about preference.
Last edited by tonypittman; 01-08-2016 at 06:42 AM.
01-08-2016, 06:53 AM
#458
Safety Car
What conspiracy? GM has claimed the auto shifts faster than PDK did they not? And the manual beat the auto on the same day did it not? And the manual was used to set the benchmark time at VIR was it not?
Facts........not conspiracy. What are you trying to defend here?
Facts........not conspiracy. What are you trying to defend here?
01-08-2016, 06:58 AM
#459
Le Mans Master
Did GM Improve on the 2016 A8 with some transmission Tuning? I also think had Randy had more time in the A8 his times would have dropped?
Last edited by DRLC5; 01-08-2016 at 06:59 AM.
01-08-2016, 06:58 AM
#460
Drifting
Any facts on how many are pissed? Maybe some are, but none of that I have spoken to....and I know more than a few. You're talking minuscule differences in what 99.99% of owners will ever experience. Those who want the M7 can get one. Those who want the A8 can as well.
Also, any source for that GM statement? I wonder who is speaking for GM officially on the topic.
This is what Pobst said:
"Which transmission would Pobst choose? “Automatic ’cause I have fifth gear,” he said. “If I’m at a track where I don’t need fifth, I might prefer the manual because I like the level of control.”"
Situational. Preference. Stop trying to characterize it as a polarizing issue that has A8 owners "pissed".
Last edited by tonypittman; 01-08-2016 at 07:08 AM.