Z06 Retest at Laguna Seca Today
01-07-2016, 02:25 PM
#421
Racerns, I really can't pinpoint the exact temps as I was sitting on the wall with Lieberman in the sunshine. It certainly felt warm or warmer than 62. Kim Reynolds who was doing all the data was set up in the garage in the shade. Don't really know how they achieved their data but it really doesn't make that much difference overall i guess.
At 3:16 of the video, the Porsche is wet with rain drops on it and what appears to be drops on the windshield a few moments later. That footage was probably not the hero lap, but something edited in for the video.
My point is you can easily get a 1 or 2 seconds a lap difference with no "rain", just from the effects of mist, fog, sun or colder morning temps to clearer sunny conditions.
Last edited by TrackAire; 01-07-2016 at 02:26 PM.
01-07-2016, 02:28 PM
#422
That is an excellent point....the mph difference shows a measurable difference in the power advantage going to the Viper. Add in the extra drag from the wing and the Vette should have beat the Viper in both ET and traps speeds if you go by the specs on the paper.
As a Viper owner that has heard a lot of these exact complaints over the years, here is what I saw watching the videos of the runs:
The Z06 does not have too much power, that is B.S. It is lacking in traction. The Kumho tires on the ACR will compare to a Hoosier R7 in stickiness...and it's not just the tread compound but the way the belts and sidewalls work together to put the power down. There is no other tire that is on a production vehicle that even comes close. Put an equivalent tire on the Z06 and watch the times drop by at least 1 second or more.
Watching how much Randy was sawing the wheel of the Z06 vs the Viper, there is some work GM has to do to the handling of the car at the limit (a pro's limit is much higher than what 99% of us can achieve). It looks as maybe there is an issue in the rear suspension...maybe the rear is toeing in and out under load or there is significant play in the rear bushings to make the car unpredictable. Fix the quirky handling and you'll get another second drop at Laguna Seca.
I am surprised that GM does not at least offer a "Track Day Special" aero option for those that want it. A bolt on front splitter extension system and rear wing would make a measurable difference in lowering the track times.
My biggest disappointment in the Z06 was not the near 3 second slower lap speed, it was the lack of handling stability and the ability to put the power down. GM should be held accountable....how can they not know that car does this at the limit? Listening to the reviewers claim that the Z06 will kill you on the street unless you keep the nannies on reminds me of all the old Viper reviews....especially since the Viper had no stability control until this latest Gen 5 version. If Randy is running with no nannies full out and the ACR is as stable as it is, there is no reason the Z06 cannot have at least the same handling predictability with its suspension package. Lap times matter, but bad handling is a much bigger concern. Come on GM, wake up and fix this issue.
As a Viper owner that has heard a lot of these exact complaints over the years, here is what I saw watching the videos of the runs:
The Z06 does not have too much power, that is B.S. It is lacking in traction. The Kumho tires on the ACR will compare to a Hoosier R7 in stickiness...and it's not just the tread compound but the way the belts and sidewalls work together to put the power down. There is no other tire that is on a production vehicle that even comes close. Put an equivalent tire on the Z06 and watch the times drop by at least 1 second or more.
Watching how much Randy was sawing the wheel of the Z06 vs the Viper, there is some work GM has to do to the handling of the car at the limit (a pro's limit is much higher than what 99% of us can achieve). It looks as maybe there is an issue in the rear suspension...maybe the rear is toeing in and out under load or there is significant play in the rear bushings to make the car unpredictable. Fix the quirky handling and you'll get another second drop at Laguna Seca.
I am surprised that GM does not at least offer a "Track Day Special" aero option for those that want it. A bolt on front splitter extension system and rear wing would make a measurable difference in lowering the track times.
My biggest disappointment in the Z06 was not the near 3 second slower lap speed, it was the lack of handling stability and the ability to put the power down. GM should be held accountable....how can they not know that car does this at the limit? Listening to the reviewers claim that the Z06 will kill you on the street unless you keep the nannies on reminds me of all the old Viper reviews....especially since the Viper had no stability control until this latest Gen 5 version. If Randy is running with no nannies full out and the ACR is as stable as it is, there is no reason the Z06 cannot have at least the same handling predictability with its suspension package. Lap times matter, but bad handling is a much bigger concern. Come on GM, wake up and fix this issue.
Agree the ball is in GM court to fix the handling and they have time to make the upgrade for the MY 17, Randy is suggesting to soften the rear will see but they have to figure this out.
01-07-2016, 02:42 PM
#423
The Consigliere
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At the end of the day, the results seem to be - track temps notwithstanding - pretty much we all expected them to be for a same day, same driver test:
Viper - first place
Z06 - second place
Porsche - third place
Doesn't seem to be anything at all surprising in that, given the cars and their configurations.
As to the C7Z/C6ZR comparison, I'm equally impressed just how potent a performer the ZR is on track, as well as the fact the new Z is even more potent while being a better all around sports car to drive and enjoy. Great rigs.
Viper - first place
Z06 - second place
Porsche - third place
Doesn't seem to be anything at all surprising in that, given the cars and their configurations.
As to the C7Z/C6ZR comparison, I'm equally impressed just how potent a performer the ZR is on track, as well as the fact the new Z is even more potent while being a better all around sports car to drive and enjoy. Great rigs.
01-07-2016, 03:01 PM
#424
V10LEE
Don't count out the C6Z06 centennial edition or the carbon edition. Pobst did a 1:34xx with it on the older Sport Cup 1 tires. Run that car on Cup 2 tires and see what happens.
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DRLC5 (01-07-2016)
This is the test I would like too see, why has no one put the A8 to the test? maybe faster? maybe slower? Until they put it on the track all we can do is speculate.
01-07-2016, 06:36 PM
#427
Safety Car
Even GM has stated the M7 is the faster choice for road course use, if you know how to drive. Pissed a lot of A8 owners off when they mentioned that, after the fact.
01-07-2016, 06:42 PM
#428
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Last edited by four0nefive; 01-07-2016 at 06:43 PM.
01-07-2016, 06:48 PM
#429
Safety Car
Thanks for the clarification. But, GM also brought four C7Z's to this magazine test. All were manual. Had to be a reason, right? Mero set his lap record at VIR in a manual, the Road Atlanta lap record was manual, etc...
01-07-2016, 06:49 PM
#430
Melting Slicks
Last edited by TARANTULA; 01-07-2016 at 06:54 PM.
01-07-2016, 06:57 PM
#431
It's stupid that the GT3RS cost over $300k . You could buy an ACR and a GT3. Or ACR , Z06 and still have like $80k left over. With that being said the RS isn't anything special IMO. A unibody ,stamped steel car for that kind of money you should be getting a carbon fiber tub chassis . Carbon fiber skin etc..
01-07-2016, 07:10 PM
#432
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
I'm not disagreeing with you at all, I think the manual is definitely faster at most tracks and is more efficient for track days.
Also quick correction, the Road Atlanta lap time was run in an A8:
01-07-2016, 07:17 PM
#433
Drifting
2011 z06/z07
So the new Z ran a 1.33.05 at Laguna and the 2011 ran a 1:34.43.
Not sure if I am more impressed with the 2011 lap time or disappointed with the new Z's time.......
Not sure if I am more impressed with the 2011 lap time or disappointed with the new Z's time.......
01-07-2016, 07:19 PM
#434
Safety Car
Im fairly sure there was a test where they had the A8 and M7 and the M7 blew the doors off the A8. Like 1.5 seconds or something. Wasnt it buttonwillow or something? There is a reason GM used a manual for their VIR lap. The road atlanta event was a press event. ViR was all business.
The Viper had slower conering speeds vs the lap record time. Looks like a combination of a green track with no rubber layed down, SRT likely having shaved tires and a far more optimized setup (and engineers setting the car up just right for the conditions with many laps driven), and maybe a kickback for Randy setting a fast lap.
Dont forget the hoopla when the ZR1 beat the base Viper the first time they ran at Laguna. When SRT returned with that same Viper and a TA Randy went MUCH faster in the private test than he did in the head to head. Then when they did another head to head (or maybe it was best drivers car or the open laguna lap test) later, he was slower again near the same time he ran in the first test.
Either SRT engineers have some special sauce or the factory cars are just set up better than the media cars.
The Viper had slower conering speeds vs the lap record time. Looks like a combination of a green track with no rubber layed down, SRT likely having shaved tires and a far more optimized setup (and engineers setting the car up just right for the conditions with many laps driven), and maybe a kickback for Randy setting a fast lap.
Dont forget the hoopla when the ZR1 beat the base Viper the first time they ran at Laguna. When SRT returned with that same Viper and a TA Randy went MUCH faster in the private test than he did in the head to head. Then when they did another head to head (or maybe it was best drivers car or the open laguna lap test) later, he was slower again near the same time he ran in the first test.
Either SRT engineers have some special sauce or the factory cars are just set up better than the media cars.
Last edited by heavychevy; 01-07-2016 at 07:28 PM.
01-07-2016, 07:22 PM
#435
Drifting
Last edited by tonypittman; 01-07-2016 at 07:23 PM.
01-07-2016, 07:34 PM
#436
Safety Car
Actually it was the other way around. The M7 had issues by itself in the first test. Then they sent an M7 and A8 with thr revised suspensions settings and on the same day the manual was faster by .75 seconds with a 1:25.
Doesnt get anymore solid than that.
Last edited by heavychevy; 01-07-2016 at 07:36 PM.
01-07-2016, 07:38 PM
#437
Drifting
1:25 was the reported best M7 time, but after the video screenshot. Not sure what day(s). The graphic comes from a video where they posted the best times of 2015 production cars.
Last edited by tonypittman; 01-07-2016 at 07:42 PM.
01-07-2016, 07:55 PM
#438
Burning Brakes
It's unfortunate that we will probably never know.
Note to GM - redesign the mechanics of how Corvettes LOCK IN Alignment and DO IT NOW and forever get this monkey off the Corvettes back to avoid this problem surfacing in the future. More importantly, to get this problem off your CUSTOMERS back. IIRC, C5's and C6's had alignments easily drifting out of spec over time causing all kinds of subtle handling issues when taking the car to the upper handling limits, and it looks like that problem is inherited here in the C7 as well. How many times has GM had to correct it's Test Fleet? We even have members receiving cars fresh from the factory with alignments out of whack.
Not saying this is why the Vette was 3 seconds slower, but Randy mentioning the oversteer problem multiple times in the same test is seriously off. He didn't mention it in the earlier test and loved the handling back then. It doesn't matter if the power was down on the last test, as he is threshold braking heavy into the corners and the turn in speeds will be the same and results the same no matter what power the engine is making, therefore the result should be the same, which should be great according to his own comments. What do you guys think?
01-07-2016, 08:02 PM
#439
I don't know how many laps these guys ran but it was at least 3 laps before the car stopped being loose as heck with ambient temps in the 40's. Perhaps that is part of the reason why Randy complained about how loose the car was?
I've also been told that when GM was testing the C7Z at Spring Mountain the first thing they did was stop on the straights and do a set of burn outs to heat up the rear tires so it's not just me.
01-07-2016, 08:23 PM
#440
Burning Brakes