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This can only happen if a/f ratio and /or boost parameters are being changed by this intake.......Which opens the door for GM to void the engine warranty......
Don't say only. I would bet SOME of the gains are from low restriction filter and better duct work.
I dyno'd mine stock and with the CAI. Yes the A/F was changed, BUT by .2 or .3 only. The boost tracks were virtually the same. Lower restriction, from the filter or duct will give gains throughout the rpm band.
Don't say only. I would bet SOME of the gains are from low restriction filter and better duct work.
I dyno'd mine stock and with the CAI. Yes the A/F was changed, BUT by .2 or .3 only. The boost tracks were virtually the same. Lower restriction, from the filter or duct will give gains throughout the rpm band.
Unfortunately for us though, there is no grey area. They either match stock settings or they don't. And Jim Hall has stated more than once on here his intake gives ~1.2 additional pounds of boost. So there's that.
I've got a Halltech system for my Z that hasn't been installed yet, and it looks amazing. But, having read this (particularly the posts from Norcal), I'm concerned about installing it.
I guess I'd like to see Jim step forward and make an official statement that he will cover the warranty on an engine loss not covered by GM, which is due to the installation of his CAI.
I've got a Halltech system for my Z that hasn't been installed yet, and it looks amazing. But, having read this (particularly the posts from Norcal), I'm concerned about installing it.
I guess I'd like to see Jim step forward and make an official statement that he will cover the warranty on an engine loss not covered by GM, which is due to the installation of his CAI.
I too have purchased a unit and feel the same way. That would seem like the prudent thing to do. I suspect such a coverage would dramatically increase sales.
Bullschit!......Unless they are willing to lie and lose their jobs on your behalf....
I've seen it happen with my own two eyes. I believe you could have experienced something different, and maybe things are getting worse, but it has most certainly happened in the not so distant past.
I never said it was easy. The sad truth is that most people with relatively expensive cars treat their service department staff like crap (I've learned that from my connections too). In those cases, you're absolutely right, they wouldn't stick their necks out even an inch.
HOWEVER, when you treat them like human beings, and your entire family brings them a total of FOUR Corvettes, a Cobalt, a Cruze, a Cadillac, and even a BMW, they tend to treat you a little differently. And I completely understand this is a relationship that has to be built, it takes time and effort.
If the car is running the stock tune (key) - a simple intake, or exhaust, or x pipe, or ported throttle body has maybe a 0.01% chance of causing something catastrophic. Z cars come so pig rich from the factory you can literally smell the fuel being dumped when you're behind one going WOT.
So that's why it's not really "lying". It's a disagreement. And if you really think about it, who is right? The mechanic who has seen a handful of engines blow up, all for the same exact reason, independent of the different mods on the various cars (if any mods), or the GM corporate rep who says car 1 dropped the #7 exhaust valve because on an intake, car 2 dropped the #7 exhaust valve because of an exhaust, car 3 - same thing - from Michelin PSS tires? Seriously, there's a story somewhere on here about a guy who was denied a warranty claim for tires (!?).
I am completely OCD when it comes to buying cars. I will not buy one without a full service history and PPI, provided by these guys I rely on. They checked the last box for every GM car my extended family has bought in recent history - totaling $310,000 in sales. Doing the right thing here and there costs GM very little in comparison to that number. If GM doesn't have the business savvy to understand that their best employees do that for the bottom line - and they're hell bent on eliminating the practice, and voiding warranties for air fresheners, that bottom line is going to change. I'm not buying another car from them if they void my powertrain warranty because Bon Jovi caused uncontrollable vibrations that snapped an exhaust valve. And you wouldn't either.
Don't say only. I would bet SOME of the gains are from low restriction filter and better duct work.
I dyno'd mine stock and with the CAI. Yes the A/F was changed, BUT by .2 or .3 only. The boost tracks were virtually the same. Lower restriction, from the filter or duct will give gains throughout the rpm band.
....Which would only make sense if the stock setup was so restrictive, that flow limitations are occurring at 150-200 hp.....
However, a member claimed that there is a service bulletin out there that talks about denying warranty coverage due to an aftermarket intake. While this does sound completely ridiculous, I'd like to know for sure if this is the case. Frankly, I have your intake on order and can't wait to get it. I just want to know if I need to remove it (5 minute process) every time I take it to the dealer. And if someone is driving down the road with an intake on and the engine explodes it's not hard to make sure a stock intake gets on there before it gets towed to the dealership. Call it what you want but sometimes we need to stand up against ridiculous rules. I've got 8k miles on my Z already and it hasn't popped yet. I'd say good old Rebecca Braun didn't drop her cigarette into a cylinder. All this intake talk has me 1% concerned but it's just not a realistic concern when one thinks it through. I'm patiently waiting for your intake.
p.s. can anyone with dealership contacts see if there's actually a service bulletin that discusses intakes?
First of all, we have been in business since 1999. Selling literally thousands of air filters every year, without so much as a hint of our intake causing warranty issues. Installing our intake system will not void your warranty. Could it contribute to engine failure? The increase in boost is a natural occurrence resulting from better airflow efficiency, and is well within the power maximums this engine was designed for.
If you decided to install an intake that was sucking in water from re-routing it under a radiator shroud, and you hydrolock your motor. Guess what? GM would likely void your warranty for using an intake system that draws air from a risky location. Our intake uses the exact same fender-well air inlet, and is routed to the throttle body in the exact same manner as stock. We reuse the stock MAF sensor, and the stock single PCV line that draws fresh filtered air to your dry sump canister.
Let's look at how we test our intake systems. Halltech uses Katech Engine Development to test all of our intake systems, and has done so since 1999 starting with the TRIC (I actually found one in their shop that was sent to them in 1999) They did not approve of the TRIC, probably because it was a bottom breather and too risky for their engine builds. We quit making that design immediately and went with another design. We then use K&Ns SuperFlow Bench for our air filter testing. We do not use an off the shelf K&N filter. All of our filters are designed by me and made and tested for us by K&N by the ISO 5011 test methods: http://www.knfilters.com/testmethod.htmhttp://www.knfilters.com/powertesting.htm
In 2006 we made a foam filter with a honeycomb insert, again, Katech would not approve it due to poor filtration concerns. It made +8 HP on the LS7 vs lower numbers with a competitor's intake, but keeping it oiled for best filtration was too much of a pain for them and their customers.
Finally we made a complete intake system called the Killer Bee, it made +15 HP on their cell 2 engine dyno and they have been using our intake exclusively ever since then. Tear downs of racing engines over the years show no undue scoring of the cylinders, or other engine damage from use of our filters.
Ask yourself this. Why would Katech Performance use only Halltech intakes and have our filter on their LS series engine dyno on every engine dyno pull they have made over the past decade? Why does every major engine builder on the forum use our intakes for their builds? If we were known for toasting engines, we would be out of business in a month. So far this year, Vengeance Racing has ordered over 10 Stinger CKNZ intakes for their customers. If they felt that our intake was going to cause an issue for them, why would they install them?
If GM was planning on voiding warranties over our intake system, why did they purchase one at retail in Feb. 2014 and test it at the Milford Proving Grounds? If it had failed their testing, don't you think they would have given Halltech a heads up, or at least a single email warning us of pending warranty changes that would affect our business?
This internet rumor of air intake systems causing warranty issues is as old as Halltech and go back many years. We see it pop up from time to time. Read what K&N says about this topic here: http://www.knfilters.com/warrantyletter.htm
If GM decided to start voiding warranties for intake systems, then every single shop on this forum that does aftermarket engine parts would necessarily have to close their doors. It is a multi-million dollar marketplace. SEMA battles these issues for the aftermarket, and I suppose will always be there for us.
The day that GM tells you which oil you can use, and which brand air filter you can use to keep your warranty, is the day they will see their loyal customers go away.
I started Halltech back in 1998, and incorporated the company in 1999. We are a mom and pop company, literally, with myself and Debbie running everything. We have had to battle the EPA, CARB and other government agencies, but have always had a good relationship with GM. I have offered to send one of our intakes to GM for testing. The engineer that purchased our CKN last year has not responded. The offer is still on the table.
"If you can't ban guns, ban the ammo"
Jim. Thanks for the helpful comments. Based on everything you said would you be willing to stand behind your product and be willing to cover a blown engine that GM will not cover due to the installation of your intake? If so then I suspect you would not only sell many more units but would give those that have your product an extra sense of confidence.
Jim. Thanks for the helpful comments. Based on everything you said would you be willing to stand behind your product and be willing to cover a blown engine that GM will not cover due to the installation of your intake? If so then I suspect you would not only sell many more units but would give those that have your product an extra sense of confidence.
We stand behind our comments above. If you have any fear of losing your warranty, I suggest you stay stock and do not touch the engine. There are those who want a little more power, and those that are content with posting the "what if" scenario.
I just checked with a Service Manager at a local dealer, who has been with this dealer for 15 years. There is no Service Bulletin stating that installing a different intake filter system will void the Powertrain Warranty. He did say that if an aftermarket product requires retuning the ECM, that would void the warranty, which everyone on the forum already knows. This has been the case since 2007.
We already make that disclaimer in everything we post, which is why we have worked so hard to bring an intake to market that is safe to bolt on. In this way, the Halltech Stinger-RZ and CKNZ can be installed without the need for compensatory MAF table tweaking. i.e. "No tuning necessary".
Jim
__________________ "World Class Performance for your Corvette"
Intake Design and Engineering since 1999
Halltech Systems, LLC
262-510-7600
However, a member claimed that there is a service bulletin out there that talks about denying warranty coverage due to an aftermarket intake. While this does sound completely ridiculous, I'd like to know for sure if this is the case. Frankly, I have your intake on order and can't wait to get it. I just want to know if I need to remove it (5 minute process) every time I take it to the dealer. And if someone is driving down the road with an intake on and the engine explodes it's not hard to make sure a stock intake gets on there before it gets towed to the dealership. Call it what you want but sometimes we need to stand up against ridiculous rules. I've got 8k miles on my Z already and it hasn't popped yet. I'd say good old Rebecca Braun didn't drop her cigarette into a cylinder. All this intake talk has me 1% concerned but it's just not a realistic concern when one thinks it through. I'm patiently waiting for your intake.
p.s. can anyone with dealership contacts see if there's actually a service bulletin that discusses intakes?
Best,
Gene
Gene, here's the issue as I see it:
The chance that the Halltech intake, and its current competitor product, will cause any damage to the car is minuscule and not to be worried about in isolation.
BUT, if the car is then making more hp/torque and the boost pressure rises even a small amount over OEM, those numbers will be recorded and IF a motor lets go with an aftermarket product installed, GM will in all likelihood refuse a warranty drivetrain repair as those numbers will be seen via a download of ECU data. Even returning the car back to OEM configuration before towing it back to the dealership won't change the fact that the ECU has captured the data showing that OEM performance parameters have been exceeded.
It absolutely sucks for owners, but there is a chance, (probability unknown), that a car with an aftermarket intake with a drivetrain issue gets warranty denied; perhaps more so on the C7 Z than any other GM product before it. Owners need to be aware of it IMHO. Having a great relationship with your SA who understands that a well developed intake has almost zero chance of causing an issue may not be enough with this car; (which was something I mentioned earlier in another thread), because when the data is read at Corporate, they (GM) are going to come looking for the cause.
It would be great if Halltech and Awe could petition GM to sanction their products for 'Off Road Use' much like other GM performance products are sold with warranty intact. No owner can expect a small performance shop to warranty a major repair on a $25K engine just because it has an aftermarket intake installed btw.
The above is just my opinion; and for everyone's sake I hope I'm over-reaching.
I understand your arguments and certainly won't refute them, as I know how hard you've worked on the development of your CAI system. But, with all due respect, this comes down to whether you will warranty a motor if it blows and GM denies the claim because it had your CAI unit on it. I think you owe it to your existing and future customers to outline whether you offer a warranty, and if so, exactly what it covers.
As has been previously posted, I think you will sell many more if customers can buy with confidence that you have their backs in the event of a claim not honored by GM. Conversely, I have a hunch that most prospective buyers don't want to run the risk of not having a warranty and/or hiring an attorney to fight the issue.
So, the bottom line is will you pay a warranty claim denied by GM due to using a Halltech CAI?
Please understand that I'm not trying to be argumentative. Rather, I want to be 100% clear about what the risks may be of using your product. You mentioned in an earlier post that an intake would not void the warranty. While I want to believe that, until GM comes out and officially makes that clear, I need to know you will pay for my repairs if they won't.
I'm just being told what was said to me. I didn't see any bulletins or "note" showing this. Am i going to cause a atir to say show me etc. No because my car was stock. maybe its because I live in cali.
Jim has a great product if he says they won't void it I'll take his word but if something does happen I'd put your stock intake back on. Same goes with aem intake.
What they also said is the intake is not carb complient so gm could say your putting non emissions complient part on car.... just like headers and gets you there also.
Look guys I'm just being real as fu*k with you. All my gm cars are done up hardcore but what happened to my car I feel I would have gotten screwed by how they are making it sound. A intake is only a few minutes to change out so if something does happen I'd put oem unit back in.
That being said I have one of Jims units coming and if I decide to keep my car I will put it on it.
Just spoke to my dealer who indicated that an air intake system should not cause a warranty issue. So I am going for it. Does anyone know if the Halltech group buy is still available?
What is their quote on RWHP gain.,Also ask yourself "Are you really going to feel that gain in a 650HP car"
BOTTOM LINE: The issue does not get resolved by lengthy explanations from any manufacurer.
Not suggesting any inaccuracies, just the "fact" that you NOT protected.
I found a good relationship with a service department takes care of most issues. As an example, I installed a pro charger supercharger on my previously owned Z06 and the service department assured me they would not void warranty and never did for two years. However, it remained up to them, not me, to honor the agreement, so I relinquished control. Best
If GM was planning on voiding warranties over our intake system, why did they purchase one at retail in Feb. 2014 and test it at the Milford Proving Grounds? If it had failed their testing, don't you think they would have given Halltech a heads up, or at least a single email warning us of pending warranty changes that would affect our business?
No , they wouldnt contact you.....Why would they want to get in a debate with you over this?.........GM doesnt care what effect their warranty policies would have on your business.
Unless an independent manufacturer is using GM trademarks in an un authorized manner, ...... I would suspect they dont care ,..... within reason ,.....what aftermarket parts are made and sold for their vehicles.........As long as it doesnt come back to bite them......
The main concern any car manufacturer would have, is that they dont intend to pay for warranty repairs that could be linked back to an aftermarket part......
Time for an ask Tadge question about this issue.....
I'm just being told what was said to me. I didn't see any bulletins or "note" showing this. Am i going to cause a atir to say show me etc. No because my car was stock. maybe its because I live in cali.
Jim has a great product if he says they won't void it I'll take his word but if something does happen I'd put your stock intake back on. Same goes with aem intake.
What they also said is the intake is not carb complient so gm could say your putting non emissions complient part on car.... just like headers and gets you there also.
Look guys I'm just being real as fu*k with you. All my gm cars are done up hardcore but what happened to my car I feel I would have gotten screwed by how they are making it sound. A intake is only a few minutes to change out so if something does happen I'd put oem unit back in.
That being said I have one of Jims units coming and if I decide to keep my car I will put it on it.
Our intakes cannot be sold legally in CA. They are not CARB compliant, and have not been for 12 years. We tried to get approval back in 2005, and wasted an entire year giving them everything they asked for, until they wanted a 150,000 mile test on the hydrocarbon pads, that actually ended up in the throttle bodies on the stock LS7 intake. We gave up, and so did all the other major manufacturers on CARB compliance.
A local GM rep's position on CARB certified parts is completely different than a GM Service Bulletin stating that a non compliant part voids your warranty. He is just doing his job, telling you that you could void your warranty with non certified parts in CA. I suppose that could be another extension of CARB's tentacles.
I agree. It would be VERY interesting to see his response.
Not really, it would be very short and to the point. Something along the lines of "Any performance aftermarket part not verified/approved by GM could effect your warranty". Key word :COULD.
If GM makes an official statement that our intake systems void your Powertrain Warranty, Halltech would refer consumers to the legal remedies under the 1975 Federal Law Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act This law prohibits any manufacturer from voiding your warranty soley because of your right to use an aftermarket part on your vehicle.
"Remedies Under the Act: The Act is meant to provide consumers with access to reasonable and effective remedies where there is a breach of warranty on a consumer product. The Act provides for informal dispute-settlement procedures and for actions brought by the government and by private parties."
The FTC has been mandated by Congress to promulgate rules* to encourage the use of alternative dispute resolution, and full warranties may require mediation and/or arbitration as a first step toward settling disputes.
In addition, the federal government has the authority to take injunctive action against a supplier or warrantor who fails to meet the requirements of the act."
K&N Engineering's position on voiding your warranty:
Therefore, K&N considers any threat to void your factory warranty, or the actual voiding of your factory warranty, solely for the installation of a K&N replacement air filter or oil filter, to be a violation of federal law. On January 4, 1975, President Ford signed into law the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, Title 1, ..101-112, 15 U.S.C. ..2301 et seq. This act, effective July 4, 1975, is designed to "improve the adequacy of information available to consumers, prevent deception, and improve competition in the marketing of consumer products. . . ." The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act applies only to consumer products, which are defined as "any tangible personal property which is distributed in commerce and which is normally used for personal, family, or household purposes (including any such property intended to be attached to or installed in any real property without regard to whether it is so attached or installed)." Under Section 103 of the Act, if a warrantor sells a consumer product costing more than $15 under written warranty, the writing must state the warranty in readily understandable language as determined by standards set forth by the Federal Trade Commission. There is, however, no requirement that a warranty be given nor that any product be warranted for any length of time. Thus the Act only requires that when there is a written warranty, the warrantor clearly disclose the nature of his warranty obligation prior to the sale of the product. The consumer may then compare warranty protection, thus shopping for the "best buy." To further protect the consumer from deception, the Act requires that any written warranty must be labeled as either a "full" or a "limited" warranty. Only warranties that meet the standards of the Act may be labeled as "full." One of the most important provisions of the Act prohibits a warrantor from disclaiming or modifying any implied warranty whenever any written warranty is given or service contract entered into. Implied warranties may, however, be limited in duration if the limitation is reasonable, conscionable, and set forth in clear and unmistakable language prominently displayed on the face of the warranty. A consumer damaged by breach of warranty, or noncompliance with the act, may sue in either state or federal district court. Access to federal court, however, is severely limited by the Act's provision that no claim may be brought in federal court if: (a) The amount in controversy of any individual claim is less than $25,000; (b) the amount in controversy is less than the sum or value of $50,000 computed on the basis of all claims in the suit; or (c) a class action is brought, and the number of named plaintiffs is less than 100. In light of these requirements it is likely that most suits will be brought in state court. If the consumer prevails, he is awarded costs and attorneys' fees. Nothing in the Act invalidates any right or remedy available under state law, and most suits should proceed on claims based on both the Code and the Act.
Our intake systems fall into the category of aftermarket parts that are affected by this federal law.
K&N has officially stated:
If you have encountered a motor vehicle dealer, who has failed and refused to "demonstrate" or prove, as federal law requires, that your K&N air filter necessitated a repair for which warranty coverage has been denied, or a manufacturer, who refuses to perform warranty repairs on your vehicle, merely because you have installed a K&N replacement air filter or based on inaccurate information from your dealer, then we ask that you request that the dealer or manufacturer set forth, in writing, the warranty denial, together with a written statement as to the specific reasons for the denial of warranty repairs, and that you send a copy of this written statement to K&N. We also ask that you direct your dealer and manufacturer to the federal law quoted above. K&N assists consumers in this situation through the K&N Consumer Protection Pledge. For details please go to the K&N website at KNFilters.com or contact our customer service department at 800-858-3333
Regarding your emissions warranty related to CARB. Halltech intake products are not emission compliant in California, and can only be used on "off road" applications. It is possible that GM could require you to use an emission compliant intake system in CA to keep your Emission Warranties. There are two warranties related to emissions.
Federal Trade Commission statement on using aftermarket parts related to your warranty:
Will using 'aftermarket' or recycled parts void my warranty? No. An 'aftermarket' part is a part made by a company other than the vehicle manufacturer or the original equipment manufacturer. A 'recycled' part is a part that was made for and installed in a new vehicle by the manufacturer or the original equipment manufacturer, and later removed from the vehicle and made available for resale or reuse. Simply using an aftermarket or recycled part does not void your warranty. The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act makes it illegal for companies to void your warranty or deny coverage under the warranty simply because you used an aftermarket or recycled part. Still, if it turns out that the aftermarket or recycled part was itself defective or wasn't installed correctly, and it causes damage to another part that is covered under the warranty, the manufacturer or dealer has the right to deny coverage for that part and charge you for any repairs. The FTC says the manufacturer or dealer must show that the aftermarket or recycled part caused the need for repairs before denying warranty coverage.
04-24-2015, 08:25 AM
