M_C7

nope for 2 reasons


#1 price argument isnt valid in this comparison as the extra 50K for the NISMO isnt 50K extra in performance over the Z06.

The Nissan is even under matched on paper as the Z06 is better track optioned all things being equal if you throw money out the window. It has much better tires carbon brakes weighs less and has more power for the yes 50K less. . its much more appropriate to say man the nissan did all that with 200 tread wear runflats and conventional brakes

the Z06/Z07 Stage 3 is a 100K+ car built for the track. its not a 50-60K bargain sports car "hanging in there with the big boys for the price" its supposed to be a world beater. so it cant become victim to the it did good for what it costs cop out. no one ever said that about the ZR1 did they? and this car is supposed to be superior right? I say once you cross that 100K mark and you bring ceramic brakes and cup tires to the battle its all fair game. anyone using the good for the money is really doing the Z06 a disservice when you look at its stand alone #'s like skid pad braking ect as those seem to be only rivaled by the liked of a 918 ect...

besides the NISMO costs what it does because of the materials they chose to use and the way its built in such limited quantities. like full carbon front and rear bumpers with a total of $60K in carbon fiber on the car that only saves about 30lbs total. the suspension aero ( in non carbon) and turbos could all be added to the regular GTR and they could have came out with a 120K but they chose a very specific and yes expensive way to produce it but all they money is for the exclusivity more or less


#2 the 150K NISMO also bested the $350K Mclaren 650S on the very same day just minutes before.

sam90lx

Corvettinator

Yeah, that's the thing, I was so looking forward to this car just dominating on the track and talking $#!t to all non-Corvette car guys. Major disappointment.

Bottom line is, the best nannies in the world can't change the shape of a car without movable parts.

I am sorry to all Z06 owners in advance, it's an awesome street car I'd gladly take off your hands and put in my garage, but this is a disaster from a lap time and PR perspective.

The good news is, there's so much left in the car from a tune perspective, in the real world, trackers who don't care about their warranties should be able to really dominate.

RossN

Jason, Good question. 5-7k might be not such a big deal to the track rats if the results in increased mph turn out to be outstanding.

I know the benefits of an Active Aero package will depend on the tracks straight away lengths, but I'm sure many people planing on getting into a Z07 or already owning one, would be interested in knowing what Katech, one of The Premier Tuner Shop for Corvette Track Junkies, is thinking the results may be at VIR or RA? What is possible, trimming 1-2 seconds, even more...?

Also, any thoughts or plans for a fix on the high temps, or will you guys be running your C7Z out at the Katech Track Attack event this July basically stock?



For those pessimistic that the C7Z's lack of mph and lack of adequate cooling will not get fixed by the aftermarket, you're dreaming. There are plenty of Shops with the skills and know how to get results and have proven track records in the Corvette Community for many years. Katech, LG Motorsports, Callaway, Lingenfelter, Doug Rippie, and Livernois come to mind and there are plenty more I'm not mentioning. Let's also hope that if Mod's are in the works, they will not disturb the GM Warranty.

Should be interesting what options surface in the next 6 months or hopefully much sooner, before Summer Temps arrive!

rgkeller

Exactly. The other problems are just noise.

2cnd Chance

Very true!

First the Z06 was no slouch around Willow, however something is wrong!
I understand the benefits of all-wheel drive, but the numbers just don't add up for the Z06. It has 50 more HP, 170 more TQ, pulls 1.17 G's vs 1.06 G's, 354 lbs. less weight, better weight distribution, better aero, better tires and brakes & lower CG. How does the GTR best it on a high power track?

The biggest gains for the GTR were made on the long straights, which the Vette having more HP and less weight it should've won out.

I'd like to buy one 4Q 2015 or 1Q 2016, however GM needs to remedy this.

tg07

I agree and disagree. If GM knew they could sell the same number (or reasonably close) of C7Z's for $50k more, their R&D budget would have been significantly higher. However, I think supply/demand at $100k was the determined "sweet spot." I believe a $150k C7Z would match or best a NISMO.

Regardless, the NISMO beat the Z pretty handily. It is absolutely awesome and probably the best bang for the buck out there. I wish there wasn't such a limited production.

TTRotary

I just want to clarify this aspect of the test, since several have mentioned it as a possible explanation (Randy turned everything off when he should not have). The MT Video makes it pretty clear that the car was set in full Track mode for the performance testing, and there is nothing I found that indicates Randy elected to change this. He even states clearly in the first segment that he "has it in track mode and boy is it stiff" or words to that effect.

What I got from the Vids was that the (disappointing) lap times were obtained in Track Mode. The test crew and Randy then started trying other settings and combos, including removing the center aero panel and Randy running with everything off, in search of a better time.

So the Mode it ran in was not a factor in the outcome as far as I can tell. Again, it is interesting that he makes the same comments about this car being a handful as he did about the Viper in that LS faceoff with the ZR1. We will never know, but I will wager that a ZR1 would have beat this Z06 on that track, had it been part of this test.

Something may have been off with the suspension settings which made it squirrelly. But the loss of power on the straight sections, coupled with massive drag from the chosen aero "solution", is the real story here. There is definitely more work to be done - the car has not yet been dialed in to it's full potential.

Consider that it takes and F1 team several seasons of intense racing, lapping, and datalogging to finally get a car dialed in. The Z06 is being asked to perform as a consumer product in a myriad of possible real life scenarios, including the demands of a racetrack, so it may take time for them to get there fully.

MaynardZed

Z06's 1:27 is no joke at big willow, same time as $150k GT3 driven by Randy. GTR is not a fair comparison, they are an anomaly. Top end speed advantage of GTR due mainly to the fact of much earlier power input on corner exit. AWD system is like cheating. To be within 1.5 seconds of a new 600hp road course focused GTR is absolutely something to be proud of.

I track extensively, and one of my good buddies (just an endodontist) drives the track edition GTR (560hp?) for track days in advanced HDPE and time trials. He routinely beats fully race prepped corvettes and can hang with the Porsche cup cars unless they have new tires on. The GTR defies logic.

I would pick the Z06, even being 1.5 seconds slower, simply for the sound. Man that V8 sounds glorious.

C7_Z06

I read somewhere in one of these posts or threads that the real bang for the buck is the GT-R Nismo... now I won't refute that for an audience that is quite affluent (isn't that like the top 1%??). After all a minimum of 150K (no supplier or credit union discounts here folks) is a hefty large chunk of expendable income...

But I will disagree since I believe the overwhelming majority of middle-income folks and to an extent even the high earners of North America will not view the R35 Nismo as THE best bang for their hard earned Benjamins... IMO the C7 Stingray is still the best bang for the buck while the C7 Z06 slots in as another top performance value for the dollar. My opinion... as well as the opinion of many other car enthusiasts, media, and auto reviewers out there alike... and you don't have to agree, but my statement stands.

M_C7

totally agree with you

Look Ive the first one ever built and I will tell you its not the best bang for the buck at least stacked up to a Z06. However relative to Mclaren MP4-12C or 650S to a Ferarri 458 Speciale or F12 yes at 164K the NISMO is a huge bang for the buck but to a Z06/ or even Z51 stingray not really. so its all relative


you buy the NISMO because you have an appreciation for NISMO's heritage in motorsports and what the brand means to you. there are many many many GTRs that have less money put into them that are faster.. but thats across all cars... just like you can make a C5 or C6 track car faster than a Z06. but the NISMO is a car you sort of get it or you dont. 50% of people start off with well you can have this tuner do so and so to a regular one and I just stop them right there as they missed the whole point.

the Z06 is a much better bang for the buck. it lost this round but it will probably edge the NISMO in another round and back and forth and so on. but loaded at 100K vs loaded at 164,780 you guys can have the bang for the buck trophy

the NISMO has some pretty uncompromising components that blow a hole in its bang for the buck to most. full autoclave dry carbon front and rear bumpers/ trunk/ wing and side skirts that total about $60K stand alone. total weight savings...30lbs. the one like mine has a $13K F1 Titanium grade exhaust. weight savings? 15ish lbs horsepower gain? 0 sound difference? maybe a little to a GTR connoisseur

but my point to all of that is there is more to a car than fastest for least possible amount of money possible.. if that were true we would all be driving around in gutted built engine cars for a decade ago with race slicks on

Monts

[QUOTE=
First the Z06 was no slouch around Willow, however something is wrong!
I understand the benefits of all-wheel drive, but the numbers just don't add up for the Z06. It has 50 more HP, 170 more TQ, pulls 1.17 G's vs 1.06 G's, 354 lbs. less weight, better weight distribution, better aero, better tires and brakes & lower CG. How does the GTR best it on a high power track?

The biggest gains for the GTR were made on the long straights, which the Vette having more HP and less weight it should've won out.

[/QUOTE]

My thoughts as well.

l888apex

This dude gets it! Cheers buddy.

2006Z06

How can one compare a RWD car to an AWD car on a track? It's not even legal in racing, precisely because the AWD car will have an advantage coming out of corners. Does that mean nobody should buy the 911 GT3 because the Nissan is quicker around the track? Or that everybody should buy an AWD car? Maybe a more fair comparison should be a 911 turbo S against a GTR.

I had a GTR, and I had it on the track. It's was very fast and took very little skill to drive quickly. The car was designed to let the computer apply the power and you just steer. It was cheaply built and sounded like a sewing machine. I think track performance should not be the only factor in buying a fun car to enjoy. Just ask the Ferrari owners.

Having said that, let's revisit this in a year after GM has applied revisions to the car. Remember, the GTR has had almost 4 years to refine and upgrade the car to what it is today.

DanTheFireman

Awesome insight, thank you for that. A true breath of fresh air.
I would have a chair under the lift gazing at your exhaust and tapping on all that carbon fiber like a monkey on a bongo.

js59

I'm inclined to disagree with this post. The last gen corvette had little trouble disposing of GTR, 911TTs and about anything else with AWD on the track. So why is it "cheating" now? Plus, looking at the speed charts, a lot of the corners are fairly high speed. Exiting a corner at 80 or 90mph shouldn't make THAT much of a difference in an AWD vs. RWD car.

js59

If you think Stingrays are purchased by "middle income" earners, you are way off base. And miles off base for Z06 owners. I'm an accountant an I regularly receive the "statistics of income" bulletins from the Treasury. You would be shocked how quickly you get into the top 5% of earners - and i would venture to say that most C7 owners of any flavor are in the top 10% - if not 5% of household incomes.

Katech_Zach

I think I could easily trim 1-2 seconds at VIR with just a fixed wing.

mebe

I get your first point, but MT answered your question: "You put them both on the track on the same day with the same pro driver and see which goes faster." Apparently that matters to some consumers and some forum members.

Your second point has been made about the GTR almost from its inception. "Sterile, uninvolving, boring" are all adjectives that have been applied to the GTR. Between the DCT and the "can't turn it off" torque vectoring to the wheels, this is a car that goes fast without a lot of skill or effort.

And I completely agree with your third point. If we could get out of the epeen measuring contests we'd see that the Z06 is pretty damned fast in its first model year. If GM continues to tune the car over its life then I expect to see better and better performance. As a side note: It seems like this continuous improvement is easier with forced induction cars than those that are normally aspirated.

Crabbers

If I had to pick between just the two cars, I would still take the Z06. I can also think of a lot of slower cars than both of these that I would much rather have (Aston Martin anyone?). I don't think this would be nearly as big of a deal as it is if GM didn't herald this as the second coming of Christ. The Z06 isn't getting over-analysed and dissected because of it's performance alone. It's getting blown up because of it's performance relative to what it was advertised as.