So How Will the Z06 Stack Up to the Porsche Turbo ?
03-29-2014, 06:41 PM
#481
So your answer is no then, many check in sized bags do not fit in the 911. No need to post more mid size squishy bags.
It strikes me that something like the M3 V8 is vastly superior to the 911. Both are much slower than 'Vette but you don't seem to care much about that, nor that they both have economy car like struts. Presumably that improves footwell space and as far as I can tell that's always a right tradeoff for a sports car in your opinion.
It strikes me that something like the M3 V8 is vastly superior to the 911. Both are much slower than 'Vette but you don't seem to care much about that, nor that they both have economy car like struts. Presumably that improves footwell space and as far as I can tell that's always a right tradeoff for a sports car in your opinion.
Did you want to make it a discussion about the M3 V8? We could have that discussion too, if you like.
03-29-2014, 06:43 PM
#482
Scraping the splitter.
Fact of the matter is, GM test engineers were on hand at this event. They had spare tires on hand. They had timing equipment. None of this was noted as being present for the other cars.
Misread the gauge? You think this is their first time testing cars? If they misread the gauge, what makes you think they read it accurately for the other two cars? I'm not inferring they ran lower than factory recommended tire pressures. In fact, I know that they tend to arbitrarily raise tire pressures. But they do it for all cars, unless a manufacturer objects. In the case of this test, a manufacturer (and engineers for that manufacturer) were definitely in attendance.
If Ferrari did the same, and it was a journalist who showed up with a brand new C7, would you say the results are representative of the Corvette's true relative ability? Yes or no.
Misread the gauge? You think this is their first time testing cars? If they misread the gauge, what makes you think they read it accurately for the other two cars? I'm not inferring they ran lower than factory recommended tire pressures. In fact, I know that they tend to arbitrarily raise tire pressures. But they do it for all cars, unless a manufacturer objects. In the case of this test, a manufacturer (and engineers for that manufacturer) were definitely in attendance.
If Ferrari did the same, and it was a journalist who showed up with a brand new C7, would you say the results are representative of the Corvette's true relative ability? Yes or no.
Also provide proof that MT "tend(s) to arbitrarily raise tire pressures". I doubt you can prove that as well.
All you are is smoke and mirrors combined with inference, supposition and guessing supported by Google searches and cherry-picked images to support your points.
S.
03-29-2014, 06:55 PM
#483
Where is your proof to support these claims? You are capable of a screen clip, so post it up and prove it. You continue to make completely irresponsible, unsubstantiated claims. Also, provide proof that they had a "track setup" on the Z28, as you previously claimed.
Also provide proof that MT "tend(s) to arbitrarily raise tire pressures". I doubt you can prove that as well.
All you are is smoke and mirrors combined with inference, supposition and guessing supported by Google searches and cherry-picked images to support your points.
S.
Also provide proof that MT "tend(s) to arbitrarily raise tire pressures". I doubt you can prove that as well.
All you are is smoke and mirrors combined with inference, supposition and guessing supported by Google searches and cherry-picked images to support your points.
S.
As for the tire pressures, I already posted the proof of that from their earlier 2007 test. Here they mention it in a more recent test:
"Our 458 Italia and Audi R8 GT were the only two to recommend higher front than rear pressures for normal driving (and safe understeer). Absent factory instructions from the other manufacturers, we followed Tire Rack's recommendation to uniformly add 4 psi for track work, to maximize the footprint and minimize sidewall rollover. Ideally, Edmonds recommends chalking the sidewalls, running a lap, and adjusting pressure up or down to find the lowest pressure that prevents rollover, but logistics precluded this approach. Randy Pobst complained of excessive understeer in the R8 that lower front pressure might have alleviated, but our tight schedule precluded such iteration."
Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/features/p...#ixzz2xOYjdnVY
03-29-2014, 07:43 PM
#484
Scraping the splitter.
Proof of what, GM test engineers and timing equipment and tires on hand? It's in the Autoweek article.
As for the tire pressures, I already posted the proof of that from their earlier 2007 test. Here they mention it in a more recent test:
"Our 458 Italia and Audi R8 GT were the only two to recommend higher front than rear pressures for normal driving (and safe understeer). Absent factory instructions from the other manufacturers, we followed Tire Rack's recommendation to uniformly add 4 psi for track work, to maximize the footprint and minimize sidewall rollover. Ideally, Edmonds recommends chalking the sidewalls, running a lap, and adjusting pressure up or down to find the lowest pressure that prevents rollover, but logistics precluded this approach. Randy Pobst complained of excessive understeer in the R8 that lower front pressure might have alleviated, but our tight schedule precluded such iteration."
Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/features/p...#ixzz2xOYjdnVY
As for the tire pressures, I already posted the proof of that from their earlier 2007 test. Here they mention it in a more recent test:
"Our 458 Italia and Audi R8 GT were the only two to recommend higher front than rear pressures for normal driving (and safe understeer). Absent factory instructions from the other manufacturers, we followed Tire Rack's recommendation to uniformly add 4 psi for track work, to maximize the footprint and minimize sidewall rollover. Ideally, Edmonds recommends chalking the sidewalls, running a lap, and adjusting pressure up or down to find the lowest pressure that prevents rollover, but logistics precluded this approach. Randy Pobst complained of excessive understeer in the R8 that lower front pressure might have alleviated, but our tight schedule precluded such iteration."
Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/features/p...#ixzz2xOYjdnVY
So again, where is your proof that "engineers" in any way, shape or form put a "track specific setup" on the Z28, or that MT followed anything other than GM's or Pirelli's recommended tire pressure settings?
And that link hardly supports your claim that MT "arbitrarily" raises tire pressure. Following the recommendations of the manufacturer and one of, if not the largest tire vendor that represents nearly all brands is hardly arbitrary.
S.
03-29-2014, 09:08 PM
#485
Race Director
Am I disputing that the Z/28 was faster? Or that the C7 Z06 will be faster? No. I was asked how it happened, and I gave some explanations. The 911 Turbo may be an "awesome" car (I personally think it's no more than what it was designed to do), but going around a track at 10/10ths on street-biased tires against more track-focused cars is not something that it has historically done awesomely. The original C4 ZR1 was not as track-biased as some of today's offerings, yet was 2.5 seconds faster than the 964 Turbo at Nelson Ledges.
If Ferrari showed up at a track with engineers, different tires, and had time to find a track specific setup, and a magazine showed up with a brand new C7, no engineers, no support, and the Ferrari lapped fractionally faster than the C7, but only after the Ferrari's tire pressures were reduced, is that something worth discussing? Would that be a "storyline?" We may have differences of opinion on this, but I would say that the C7's outright ability against the Ferrari was not realized, and I would have every right to point that out.
If Ferrari showed up at a track with engineers, different tires, and had time to find a track specific setup, and a magazine showed up with a brand new C7, no engineers, no support, and the Ferrari lapped fractionally faster than the C7, but only after the Ferrari's tire pressures were reduced, is that something worth discussing? Would that be a "storyline?" We may have differences of opinion on this, but I would say that the C7's outright ability against the Ferrari was not realized, and I would have every right to point that out.
Have a nice evening
03-29-2014, 09:20 PM
#486
Melting Slicks
Fact of the matter is, GM test engineers were on hand at this event. They had spare tires on hand. They had timing equipment. None of this was noted as being present for the other cars.
Misread the gauge? You think this is their first time testing cars? If they misread the gauge, what makes you think they read it accurately for the other two cars? I'm not inferring they ran lower than factory recommended tire pressures. In fact, I know that they tend to arbitrarily raise tire pressures. But they do it for all cars, unless a manufacturer objects. In the case of this test, a manufacturer (and engineers for that manufacturer) were definitely in attendance.
If Ferrari did the same, and it was a journalist who showed up with a brand new C7, would you say the results are representative of the Corvette's true relative ability? Yes or no.
Misread the gauge? You think this is their first time testing cars? If they misread the gauge, what makes you think they read it accurately for the other two cars? I'm not inferring they ran lower than factory recommended tire pressures. In fact, I know that they tend to arbitrarily raise tire pressures. But they do it for all cars, unless a manufacturer objects. In the case of this test, a manufacturer (and engineers for that manufacturer) were definitely in attendance.
If Ferrari did the same, and it was a journalist who showed up with a brand new C7, would you say the results are representative of the Corvette's true relative ability? Yes or no.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...n/viewall.html
Last edited by skank; 03-29-2014 at 09:30 PM.
03-29-2014, 11:42 PM
#487
Instructor
Member Since: Sep 2013
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911 turbo 2014 vs camaro z28 and the camaro was the slightly faster track car was tested by motor trend.
Excellent video there as well z28 vs GTR. Www.motortrend.com
Btw the 911 turbo for 2014 was such a great performer. It too did slightly surpass the GTR track performance...
All three are great cars.....yet in the test Liberman preferred the z28 on the road and the track to the 911 turbo.
Good read.not an insult to Porsche fans....
Just a fact....and I can assure you the c7 Z06 will be more impressive than the already impressive z28.
Excellent video there as well z28 vs GTR. Www.motortrend.com
Btw the 911 turbo for 2014 was such a great performer. It too did slightly surpass the GTR track performance...
All three are great cars.....yet in the test Liberman preferred the z28 on the road and the track to the 911 turbo.
Good read.not an insult to Porsche fans....
Just a fact....and I can assure you the c7 Z06 will be more impressive than the already impressive z28.
03-30-2014, 03:39 AM
#488
AW is not MT, and the only comment that AW made regarding "engineers" is that they timed the car. No mention, in either test, of spare "tires", "track specific setups" or the like. Not one. And you have no idea if the "engineers" were even around when MT tested (but typically, you'll extrapolate).
So again, where is your proof that "engineers" in any way, shape or form put a "track specific setup" on the Z28, or that MT followed anything other than GM's or Pirelli's recommended tire pressure settings?
And that link hardly supports your claim that MT "arbitrarily" raises tire pressure. Following the recommendations of the manufacturer and one of, if not the largest tire vendor that represents nearly all brands is hardly arbitrary.
S.
So again, where is your proof that "engineers" in any way, shape or form put a "track specific setup" on the Z28, or that MT followed anything other than GM's or Pirelli's recommended tire pressure settings?
And that link hardly supports your claim that MT "arbitrarily" raises tire pressure. Following the recommendations of the manufacturer and one of, if not the largest tire vendor that represents nearly all brands is hardly arbitrary.
S.
It is arbitrary when you have no idea what effect it has on a car's handling. They even admit the R8 probably could have handled even better, if they were able to test and tune better, but they simply didn't have the time for it. Do you honestly think it is purely by coincidence that of the 2 teams that responded to Motor Trend, both of them recommended tires pressures lower than normal? Do you think it is purely coincidence that in Autocar's test at Brands Hatch, the 458 dropped a whole second after a different set of tires with lower pressures was thrown on? Do you think it is purely coincidental that the Scuderia in Evo's test at Bedford dropped 7/10ths after they dropped pressure from the recommended tire pressure? Do you think it is purely coincidental that GT-R owners find the car much more manageable on the 'Ring once they've lowered pressures from standard?
The spares were obvious in the last picture of the Z/28 they had sitting in the garage. I didn't say AW is Motor Trend. I said all of these tests probably occurred around the same time, at the same track (which it was). I seriously doubt the GM engineers would be on hand for just the Motor Trend test, yet scurry away like angels for Motor Trend.
03-30-2014, 03:41 AM
#489
Which cold facts? The fact that the Z/28 is on more track-biased tires? The fact that the test took place during a GM-sponsored media event? I can accept that the Z/28 was faster in the test. Can you accept the context behind the test?
03-30-2014, 03:58 AM
#490
"The GT3 also rides on more street-oriented Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 tires."
Guibo , no where in this article does it say that they lowered the tire pressure below recommended pressure. They do indicate that it was over inflated but then they corrected it. They also say that Randy Pobst wanted to try the Camaro with less pressure but they didn't do it. I've been to 2 tests at Laguna Seca with Motor Trend. I was told that they go through a whole list of tests to make sure they are at that manufacturers specs. I watched them check out the Viper in the ZR1-Viper test. A whole check off list was used. Nothing like what you just fabricated. Here's the article.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...n/viewall.html
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...n/viewall.html
Back to the "it wasn't mentioned in the article so it can't exist" argument, remember that TopGear never mentioned the cheater cut slicks used by Pagani in its original Huayra test. If you subscribe to the theory that "if it wasn't mentioned in the article, there fore it can't exist," then you must accept that that car ran on then-current, standard street legal Corsas.
03-30-2014, 03:58 AM
#491
03-30-2014, 06:23 AM
#492
Race Director
On page 4 of the test:
"The GT3 also rides on more street-oriented Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 tires."
I didn't say they lowered the tire pressure below recommended pressure. I even cited cases where it has been their MO to raise the pressure above recommended pressure. What you have to ask yourself is: Why, at the media release for the car in question, was that car's tire pressures higher than recommended pressure, yet none of the other cars were?
Back to the "it wasn't mentioned in the article so it can't exist" argument, remember that TopGear never mentioned the cheater cut slicks used by Pagani in its original Huayra test. If you subscribe to the theory that "if it wasn't mentioned in the article, there fore it can't exist," then you must accept that that car ran on then-current, standard street legal Corsas.
"The GT3 also rides on more street-oriented Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 tires."
I didn't say they lowered the tire pressure below recommended pressure. I even cited cases where it has been their MO to raise the pressure above recommended pressure. What you have to ask yourself is: Why, at the media release for the car in question, was that car's tire pressures higher than recommended pressure, yet none of the other cars were?
Back to the "it wasn't mentioned in the article so it can't exist" argument, remember that TopGear never mentioned the cheater cut slicks used by Pagani in its original Huayra test. If you subscribe to the theory that "if it wasn't mentioned in the article, there fore it can't exist," then you must accept that that car ran on then-current, standard street legal Corsas.
Sorry Guibo ......it's gotten ridiculous.
03-30-2014, 09:34 AM
#493
Instructor
Member Since: Sep 2013
Location: Jupiter Florida
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Not to take anything away from the Z28, it is a absolute remarkable achievement. I do wonder what the results would be given the same tires and same net weight:tire pressure. I get tired of what seems to be a magazines bias towards one vehicle or another. I am NOT saying there was a bias towards the Camaro however if there was how can one derive accurate comparison data? I want unbiased facts. The same can be applied to Fox News vs CNN vs MSNBC, I get sick and tired of the spin. Regardless, for a pony car to achieve these times, no matter the tire and tire pressure, is amazing.
03-30-2014, 10:05 AM
#494
Scraping the splitter.
Of course they wouldn't want to mention it to Motor Trend. How do you think it would look if everyone knew the Z/28 had the benefit of a track setup?
It is arbitrary when you have no idea what effect it has on a car's handling. They even admit the R8 probably could have handled even better, if they were able to test and tune better, but they simply didn't have the time for it. Do you honestly think it is purely by coincidence that of the 2 teams that responded to Motor Trend, both of them recommended tires pressures lower than normal? Do you think it is purely coincidence that in Autocar's test at Brands Hatch, the 458 dropped a whole second after a different set of tires with lower pressures was thrown on? Do you think it is purely coincidental that the Scuderia in Evo's test at Bedford dropped 7/10ths after they dropped pressure from the recommended tire pressure? Do you think it is purely coincidental that GT-R owners find the car much more manageable on the 'Ring once they've lowered pressures from standard?
The spares were obvious in the last picture of the Z/28 they had sitting in the garage. I didn't say AW is Motor Trend. I said all of these tests probably occurred around the same time, at the same track (which it was). I seriously doubt the GM engineers would be on hand for just the Motor Trend test, yet scurry away like angels for Motor Trend.
It is arbitrary when you have no idea what effect it has on a car's handling. They even admit the R8 probably could have handled even better, if they were able to test and tune better, but they simply didn't have the time for it. Do you honestly think it is purely by coincidence that of the 2 teams that responded to Motor Trend, both of them recommended tires pressures lower than normal? Do you think it is purely coincidence that in Autocar's test at Brands Hatch, the 458 dropped a whole second after a different set of tires with lower pressures was thrown on? Do you think it is purely coincidental that the Scuderia in Evo's test at Bedford dropped 7/10ths after they dropped pressure from the recommended tire pressure? Do you think it is purely coincidental that GT-R owners find the car much more manageable on the 'Ring once they've lowered pressures from standard?
The spares were obvious in the last picture of the Z/28 they had sitting in the garage. I didn't say AW is Motor Trend. I said all of these tests probably occurred around the same time, at the same track (which it was). I seriously doubt the GM engineers would be on hand for just the Motor Trend test, yet scurry away like angels for Motor Trend.
S.
03-30-2014, 10:09 AM
#495
Snorman, thanks for taking the time to 'take apart' guibo's magazine assertions. It does no good as the man is clueless.
03-30-2014, 10:54 AM
#496
Race Director
Fact is the camaro z28 beat the Porsche 911 turbo and you still have a storyline ...
Here's the actual storyline.....the z28 beat the awesome 911 turbo around that track and the z06 will be faster still.
Z06 for the win without question.
And that doesn't mean the 911 turbo isn't freaking awesome....
Just means the c7 06 will be faster on the road course.
Here's the actual storyline.....the z28 beat the awesome 911 turbo around that track and the z06 will be faster still.
Z06 for the win without question.
And that doesn't mean the 911 turbo isn't freaking awesome....
Just means the c7 06 will be faster on the road course.
03-30-2014, 12:15 PM
#497
Got it, so you don't really have any proof to support your claims other than speculation and comparison to other cars, in other tests, on other tracks, in other countries tested by other magazines. But that won't stop you from spewing unsubstantiated claims about this for months to come.
S.
S.
I also just defused your theory that I claimed they put lower than standard tire pressure. I've already shown proof, which you yourself doubted, that it is Motor Trend's MO to raise tire pressures above manufacturer recommendations, regardless of make/model.
No mention of tires in either test? Of course, they don't have to mention it. Anyone with open eyes should be able to see the tires piled here:
This is contingent on the eyes being open, of course. Tell me how timing equipment is going to change those tires.
You have to be incredibly naive to think GM engineers on hand, hosting a media blitz to showcase their baby, wouldn't optimize the car for performance. Randy spotted the camber. I don't recall him mentioning the same for the others. Maybe they were running track camber, maybe they weren't. Maybe their tire pressures were reduced in the same manner as the Z/28's, maybe they weren't. For the Z/28, it's really not a question.
03-30-2014, 12:24 PM
#498
"Alabama normally expects 60-degree highs in February, but the Z/28 arrived during a cold snap, with temperatures in the 30s. That weather inadvertently underscored the Z/28’s biggest on-road liability: its tires. I found myself going sideways up an on-ramp while merely trying to keep pace with our Chevy Tahoe photo vehicle.
The Z/28 wears Pirelli PZero Trofeo R tires, sized 305/30YR-19 at all four corners. (The car might cost a lot, but at least you can rotate the tires.) Pirelli says that the Trofeo R has a ten percent bigger contact patch than a merely superaggressive summer tire in the same size. Where did that ten percent come from? Fill in the blanks. No, literally—fill in any negative space with rubber, then carve out the barest facsimile of a tread pattern and you’ve got a Trofeo R.
Like a convicted murderer, the Trofeo R should be kept off the street. Pirelli barely even claims this is a street tire, characterizing the Trofeo R as a dry-track racing tire that you can drive to and from your favorite road course. Pavement that is wet or cold or not part of a racetrack is not exactly a high priority, as I learned on that on-ramp. I’m no tire engineer, but I suspect that when the temperature is below 40 degrees, you might get better traction by driving on the rims."
--Automobile Magazine
The Z/28 wears Pirelli PZero Trofeo R tires, sized 305/30YR-19 at all four corners. (The car might cost a lot, but at least you can rotate the tires.) Pirelli says that the Trofeo R has a ten percent bigger contact patch than a merely superaggressive summer tire in the same size. Where did that ten percent come from? Fill in the blanks. No, literally—fill in any negative space with rubber, then carve out the barest facsimile of a tread pattern and you’ve got a Trofeo R.
Like a convicted murderer, the Trofeo R should be kept off the street. Pirelli barely even claims this is a street tire, characterizing the Trofeo R as a dry-track racing tire that you can drive to and from your favorite road course. Pavement that is wet or cold or not part of a racetrack is not exactly a high priority, as I learned on that on-ramp. I’m no tire engineer, but I suspect that when the temperature is below 40 degrees, you might get better traction by driving on the rims."
--Automobile Magazine
03-30-2014, 12:36 PM
#499
03-30-2014, 12:52 PM
#500
For Telepierre:
"Keith told me that he camped with his family out of their Porsche 911 and that he also raced his Porsche. I figured they were two separate hobbies as the camping equipment would weigh him down on the racetrack. I asked him to send me photos and a short synopsis, and he did. Here is what he had to say.
'Here are some photos of us driving and camping along California’s Pacific Coast Highway (Rt. 1) in the Turbo, as well as a track day at California Speedway. Many people thought we were lost when we’d pull into camp sites with the Turbo, but realized that we belong there once we unloaded our tent, sleeping bags, grill, pillows, cooler, etc.'"
http://twofortheroadusa.com/2012/08/...-goes-camping/
That's not an editor.
You can also find an original 912 owner on YouTube who took delivery of his car in Germany in 1967, and proceeded on a 3-month, 10-country tour (with camping) of Europe before shipping the car home to the US.
"Porsche camping at the 2011 Petit LeMans race with my (then) 7 yr. ld. son. Great memories!"
"Just thought I would share some quick pictures I took from camping this past week end. Everything fit nicely in the car although it took some strategic "Tetris" skills to make it all fit efficiently."
Those are Rennlist members. Not journalists.
Look at the obvious pain in their faces, as these two are unwittingly forced into sadistic contortionist positions inside of a 911:
I'm sure you can find a picture of a Corvette used for camping. But then you would have one more example of that than an example of an owner using his car to set 10/10ths times on a closed racetrack. The number of which currently stands at zero.
"Keith told me that he camped with his family out of their Porsche 911 and that he also raced his Porsche. I figured they were two separate hobbies as the camping equipment would weigh him down on the racetrack. I asked him to send me photos and a short synopsis, and he did. Here is what he had to say.
'Here are some photos of us driving and camping along California’s Pacific Coast Highway (Rt. 1) in the Turbo, as well as a track day at California Speedway. Many people thought we were lost when we’d pull into camp sites with the Turbo, but realized that we belong there once we unloaded our tent, sleeping bags, grill, pillows, cooler, etc.'"
http://twofortheroadusa.com/2012/08/...-goes-camping/
That's not an editor.
You can also find an original 912 owner on YouTube who took delivery of his car in Germany in 1967, and proceeded on a 3-month, 10-country tour (with camping) of Europe before shipping the car home to the US.
"Porsche camping at the 2011 Petit LeMans race with my (then) 7 yr. ld. son. Great memories!"
"Just thought I would share some quick pictures I took from camping this past week end. Everything fit nicely in the car although it took some strategic "Tetris" skills to make it all fit efficiently."
Those are Rennlist members. Not journalists.
Look at the obvious pain in their faces, as these two are unwittingly forced into sadistic contortionist positions inside of a 911:
I'm sure you can find a picture of a Corvette used for camping. But then you would have one more example of that than an example of an owner using his car to set 10/10ths times on a closed racetrack. The number of which currently stands at zero.