Who else is passing on the Z06 to wait for the real track C7?
01-15-2014, 07:25 AM
#21
LOL this guy is on the sauce.....
01-15-2014, 07:43 AM
#22
Look at the C7 Z06 3450 pound weight, the cylinder de-activation, and the automatic transmission.
And it has a supercharger so it's more like the ZR1 than the Z06. It's a ZR1 at the price of a Z06
.
And it has a supercharger so it's more like the ZR1 than the Z06. It's a ZR1 at the price of a Z06
.
Last edited by B Stead; 01-15-2014 at 08:23 AM.
01-15-2014, 07:47 AM
#23
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"Ask Tadge" Producer
It will be fixed roof, it will almost certainly have a DCT, and it might even feature a turbo LT1 (LT5?), but it will almost assuredly come sometime in the next few years. And it will absolutely **** all over this Z06.
So be careful what you ask for. You might get it and the price tag to go along with it.
01-15-2014, 07:48 AM
#24
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01-15-2014, 07:58 AM
#25
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2016 Corvette of Year
2015 C6 of Year Finalist
Funny.... I have used my A6 C6 on road courses around FL and it performs flawlessly. I did add a transmission cooler and since then no issues. I have some great Video of the cars I pass on the track. Even a race prepped Ferrari at Sebring...
So I can only imagine how much better the A8 will perform.
What track experience do you have?
So I can only imagine how much better the A8 will perform.
What track experience do you have?
01-15-2014, 08:05 AM
#26
The C7 track car is a Z51 with cylinder de-activation removed and then a stainless-steel aftermarket exhaust. Also, 9.5/11 wheels at 5mm more outward offset than stock and then 265/305 tire sizes.
Strangely enough, if track tires are wanted then the Z51 wheel diameter should be 19" front and rear. The problem is finding the pair of 265/35-19 and 305/30-20 tire sizes in both Extreme-Performance and R-comp tire categories. And then the 265/35-19 and 305/35-19 tire sizes are easier to find.
MRC is also out so that coilovers can be used. Or GM should offer a T2 racing suspension kit in a few months that could be used with the MRC
Neither air conditioning or cats would be removed unless it is a dedicated and trailered track car
.
Strangely enough, if track tires are wanted then the Z51 wheel diameter should be 19" front and rear. The problem is finding the pair of 265/35-19 and 305/30-20 tire sizes in both Extreme-Performance and R-comp tire categories. And then the 265/35-19 and 305/35-19 tire sizes are easier to find.
MRC is also out so that coilovers can be used. Or GM should offer a T2 racing suspension kit in a few months that could be used with the MRC
Neither air conditioning or cats would be removed unless it is a dedicated and trailered track car
.
Last edited by B Stead; 01-15-2014 at 09:28 AM.
01-15-2014, 08:06 AM
#27
Burning Brakes
This sounds very logical, thank you for sharing.
01-15-2014, 08:15 AM
#28
Weight of the targa, weight in the wrong place? For a dedicated track car wouldn't you be pulling the interior anyway?
I agree with asking about track experience on this thread. Some people want the ultimate no holds barred car they never would be able to get near the full performance of on a track. Let alone to the point of complaining the targa top weight is holding back track times.
I agree with asking about track experience on this thread. Some people want the ultimate no holds barred car they never would be able to get near the full performance of on a track. Let alone to the point of complaining the targa top weight is holding back track times.
01-15-2014, 08:21 AM
#29
Burning Brakes
Katech has already announced they will build a "Track Attack" version of the car with a (size to be determined) NA motor and other improvements. I'm sure OP can put his deposit there for his ideal Z06. I'm guessing the eventual cost will be around $50k (plus the car).
01-15-2014, 08:26 AM
#30
Premium Supporting Vendor
Don't hold your breath. If the C6 Z06X couldn't get past the bean-counters (ref. Bob Lutz's book - Car Guys vs. Bean Counters), then the C7 Z06X probably couldn't either. Tadge Juecter himself has said in a recent candid conversation that was pasted about here that if they don't sell enough Z06s, there isn't going to be another one (I'm paraphrasing). Some speculate if he was referring to Z06s, or Corvettes in general. Regardless, it tells me that the mentality is to focus on the current Z06 and getting the sales up, not developing rare, low production track packages. That's where the Katech Track Attack C7 Z06 comes in.
01-15-2014, 08:28 AM
#31
I'd be happy with a Z06 that outperforms the C6 ZR1 on a track 
Which also means it outperforms 99.8% of all cars out there today 
Maybe my expectations are too low
Which also means it outperforms 99.8% of all cars out there today Maybe my expectations are too low
01-15-2014, 09:16 AM
#34
Racer
Oh FFS when will all of this crap stop? Want a track car? Buy a beater C5, strip it, cage it, swap in the driveline, suspension, brakes, seats, and aero that you want and STFU already... You'll be into it roughly the same amount of money, and it'll be faster.
01-15-2014, 09:20 AM
#35
Race Director
In many cases I agree.
I agree that the S/C is not optimal for the road course. Adds weight to the front, creates significant heat, and burns ~100+ HP to spin the blower. None of that is ideal.
I agree that the torque converter based auto may not be ideal, but at the same time, I'm not yet convinced it is any worse than a DCT. The biggest issue I see is the heat generated by the T/C, but if GM can run with it locked most of the time, or with plenty of cooling, maybe it won't be a problem. I would prefer the manual for road courses, but for the strip, the A8 is probably better than a DCT because it will be more robust, and for the street I believe the A8 is better than a DCT due to the improved low speed performance. To me this is moot point because I'd take the manual over either just for the fun of shifting (even if I would be slower).
As far as the targa goes, I also agree. Now, I don't necessarily agree with your weight concern, as the targa top is carbon fiber and weighs very little. However, I wouldn't mind the improved structural rigidity of a fixed roof.
Now, I do not think there will be a more track focused version that will be faster than this Z06. I definitely do not feel that turbos belong in a track focused car, as they add delay to the throttle response, wreck the exhaust note, and mask some of the communication between car and driver. One thing I admire about Porsche is that they keep the GT3 normally aspirated, even though it may not be as fast as the GT2 or even Turbo S. Even the C6Z was not as fast around tracks as the ZR1, even though it was the more track focused of the two.
So, I think a pure track version will be normally aspirated and would likely be slower because it will be down on power. It might make up some time due to improved rigidity and lighter weight (because of the fixed roof and lack of S/C), but that won't be enough to overcome the power deficit. I do feel that the C7Z6 reminds me more of the C6ZR1 than the C6Z, but that's basically because of the S/C and the compromises it brings.
I am interested in seeing what other variants GM comes up with.
-T
I agree that the S/C is not optimal for the road course. Adds weight to the front, creates significant heat, and burns ~100+ HP to spin the blower. None of that is ideal.
I agree that the torque converter based auto may not be ideal, but at the same time, I'm not yet convinced it is any worse than a DCT. The biggest issue I see is the heat generated by the T/C, but if GM can run with it locked most of the time, or with plenty of cooling, maybe it won't be a problem. I would prefer the manual for road courses, but for the strip, the A8 is probably better than a DCT because it will be more robust, and for the street I believe the A8 is better than a DCT due to the improved low speed performance. To me this is moot point because I'd take the manual over either just for the fun of shifting (even if I would be slower).
As far as the targa goes, I also agree. Now, I don't necessarily agree with your weight concern, as the targa top is carbon fiber and weighs very little. However, I wouldn't mind the improved structural rigidity of a fixed roof.
Now, I do not think there will be a more track focused version that will be faster than this Z06. I definitely do not feel that turbos belong in a track focused car, as they add delay to the throttle response, wreck the exhaust note, and mask some of the communication between car and driver. One thing I admire about Porsche is that they keep the GT3 normally aspirated, even though it may not be as fast as the GT2 or even Turbo S. Even the C6Z was not as fast around tracks as the ZR1, even though it was the more track focused of the two.
So, I think a pure track version will be normally aspirated and would likely be slower because it will be down on power. It might make up some time due to improved rigidity and lighter weight (because of the fixed roof and lack of S/C), but that won't be enough to overcome the power deficit. I do feel that the C7Z6 reminds me more of the C6ZR1 than the C6Z, but that's basically because of the S/C and the compromises it brings.
I am interested in seeing what other variants GM comes up with.
-T
You might want to check that...
Jimmy
01-15-2014, 09:28 AM
#36
Boy did he get jumped on!
01-15-2014, 09:35 AM
#37
Le Mans Master
01-15-2014, 09:41 AM
#38
Le Mans Master
With the following disappointing pieces of information, I have decided to pass on the Z06 and wait for the spiritual successor of the C6 Z06 (Carbon Package).
1. Supercharger. Parasitic drivetrain loss coupled with heat issues. It is no wonder that all the motorsport elite opt for turbocharging in their race applications as it is a superior technology. Ferrari, McLaren, Formula 1, Porsche, BMW....they have all gone to turbocharging. GM itself has gone on the record to state that they will be moving to turbocharging as they regard it the future. SC's are a fun power-adder (and I have one in my CTS-V) but it really is something you would expect to find in a dragstrip car (one and done) than anything else.
2. Automatic transmission. The 8L90E can upshift in 100ms supposedly. This is great. Unfortunately, there is a lot more to what makes a good transmission than how fast it can upshift. There is a lot of people drinking the GM Kool-Aid on these forums, people who fail to understand the basic principles of what separates a dual-clutch transmission and an automatic transmission. This is something, however, that the engineers at Porsche, Ferrari, McLaren, Nissan, Koenigsegg, BMW, Bugatti, Pagani as well as the actual leaders in transmission development like ZF and BorgWarner agree on: a torque converter automatic transmission does not belong in a sports car.. So why did GM do it? Economies of scale. This transmission will go into Cadillacs, Corvettes, and trucks. For the sake of keeping the price down, GM has made a concession to performance. No such concession was ever made when it came to using the small block pushrod V8, so the comparison there is bunk.
3. Removable hardtop roof. Unless we are talking about carbon fiber tubs, a car derives its structural rigidity from a fixed roof. Making the roof a targa top adds weight to the worst place it can be put on a car. It also makes the chassis less rigid. Does this mean the C7 Z06 is less rigid than the C6 Z06? No, it just means it is yet another compromise.
Which leads me to believe...
GM has left something on the table.
There isgoing to be a track C7 Corvette. It will be fixed roof, it will almost certainly have a DCT, and it might even feature a turbo LT1 (LT5?), but it will almost assuredly come sometime in the next few years. And it will absolutely **** all over this Z06.
1. Supercharger. Parasitic drivetrain loss coupled with heat issues. It is no wonder that all the motorsport elite opt for turbocharging in their race applications as it is a superior technology. Ferrari, McLaren, Formula 1, Porsche, BMW....they have all gone to turbocharging. GM itself has gone on the record to state that they will be moving to turbocharging as they regard it the future. SC's are a fun power-adder (and I have one in my CTS-V) but it really is something you would expect to find in a dragstrip car (one and done) than anything else.
2. Automatic transmission. The 8L90E can upshift in 100ms supposedly. This is great. Unfortunately, there is a lot more to what makes a good transmission than how fast it can upshift. There is a lot of people drinking the GM Kool-Aid on these forums, people who fail to understand the basic principles of what separates a dual-clutch transmission and an automatic transmission. This is something, however, that the engineers at Porsche, Ferrari, McLaren, Nissan, Koenigsegg, BMW, Bugatti, Pagani as well as the actual leaders in transmission development like ZF and BorgWarner agree on: a torque converter automatic transmission does not belong in a sports car.. So why did GM do it? Economies of scale. This transmission will go into Cadillacs, Corvettes, and trucks. For the sake of keeping the price down, GM has made a concession to performance. No such concession was ever made when it came to using the small block pushrod V8, so the comparison there is bunk.
3. Removable hardtop roof. Unless we are talking about carbon fiber tubs, a car derives its structural rigidity from a fixed roof. Making the roof a targa top adds weight to the worst place it can be put on a car. It also makes the chassis less rigid. Does this mean the C7 Z06 is less rigid than the C6 Z06? No, it just means it is yet another compromise.
Which leads me to believe...
GM has left something on the table.
There isgoing to be a track C7 Corvette. It will be fixed roof, it will almost certainly have a DCT, and it might even feature a turbo LT1 (LT5?), but it will almost assuredly come sometime in the next few years. And it will absolutely **** all over this Z06.
01-15-2014, 09:43 AM
#39
Le Mans Master
I'm not sure why all the anger to the OP. Sure, some of his remarks come off a little condensending, but they are not completely wrong either.
Of course, he does seem to fail to realize that this is a mass produced vehicle designed to appeal to a great number of people, not just those folks that want to only trailer the car to the track. I mean sure, GM could've built the Z06 with full cage, one seat, sequential race transmission, and dropped whatever N/A powerplant they wanted in it. I wonder if the fire extinguisher would be standard or an option?...oh wait, maybe they did, what was that other car at the reveal called? The C7R or something like that? But I don't think could sell more than a couple to the general public.
The Z06 looks like a fun car for the average enthusiast. On the surface it looks like GM chose their compromises pretty wisely. Anyone who thinks that they could produce any car meant for the public without compromises in one area or another is just asking a little too much.
Of course, he does seem to fail to realize that this is a mass produced vehicle designed to appeal to a great number of people, not just those folks that want to only trailer the car to the track. I mean sure, GM could've built the Z06 with full cage, one seat, sequential race transmission, and dropped whatever N/A powerplant they wanted in it. I wonder if the fire extinguisher would be standard or an option?...oh wait, maybe they did, what was that other car at the reveal called? The C7R or something like that? But I don't think could sell more than a couple to the general public.
The Z06 looks like a fun car for the average enthusiast. On the surface it looks like GM chose their compromises pretty wisely. Anyone who thinks that they could produce any car meant for the public without compromises in one area or another is just asking a little too much.
01-15-2014, 09:52 AM
#40
Melting Slicks
So what you're saying is the LT4 is actually a 725HP+ engine? The thing i hate about the argument of parasitic loss is that it's an imaginary number. The engine wouldn't produce 625hp without the supercharger in place so what's the point of thinking about it. Oh, I know we can argue about how amazing turbo systems are and how they don't deal with parasitic losses and whatever other stuff you want to throw in. The problem lies in the simple fact that a twin turbo setup in a Corvette from the manufacturer will weigh more, increase complexity, and in general change the behavior of the car due to turbo's loving those higher revs. With a 10.0:1 compression ratio you won't get much more boost on pump gas than 9.5-12 PSI depending on how hot the combustion chamber is.