Skullbussa

The Corvette "targeted buyer" is not the same person it used to be as it has split into two groups:

Traditional (about 75% of people on this forum): These are the "waxers", the guys who buy champagne and maroon base-model, non-Z51 Corvettes with automatic transmissions. All convertible vette guys fall into this category. The most they ever push their car is a brief Budweiser-fueled lapse in judgment as they goose their car to 100mph on the freeway on their way home from Hooters on a warm Sunday afternoon.

Enthusiasts: These are the guys who would never have considered putting a Vette into their garage before the C5 Z06. They are not loyal to the Corvette brand and are interested in the incredible dollar-to-performance value the Z06 brings. They will happily cross-shop the Z06 to the 911 and the GT-R and respect all 3 cars. These buyers probably are younger and/or not Americans. More likely to track the car and would happily trade in the LS7 for a smaller motor provided the Nurburgring lap times similarly shrink.

The first group subsidizes the Corvette for the Enthusiast group. But the first group is a much older demographic and their importance will wane with time as the second group grows in size. GM knows this.

You mean like the BMW M3, a car that came equipped with a DCT transmission and had a base price about the same as the Corvette's? Or how about the DCT in the $40,000 Mitsubishi Evo X?

With all due respect, I think you really have no idea what you are talking about. The DCT transmission is not an exotic, complicated, or especially costly transmission. It is robust enough for the 950+ hp Ferrari LaFerrari so it is certainly strong enough for a Z06.

Guys - manual transmissions simply don't belong in modern sports cars. I can 100% say for certain there is NO CHANCE I will buy another Corvette until they offer one with a dual-clutch transmission.

Skullbussa

Cadillac ATS-V
Cadillac CTS-V
Chevy Camaro Z28
Chevy Camaro ZL1
Corvette Base
Corvette Z06
Corvette ZR1

Even more so than BMW, Nissan, and Porsche, GM has PLENTY of places it could put this transmission.

Daekwan06

With all due respect. Maybe you might want to do some research before opening your mouth again.

Or atleast stop the stupid talk. In what world do you live in is the Corvette and M3 priced the same?

http://www.chevrolet.com/corvette-stingray.html
The 2013 Corvette starting price = $51,000
6 speed Automatic option = $1,350
Total price = $52,350 starting price.

vs.

http://www.cars.com/bmw/m3/2013/standard-equipment/
2013 BMW M3 starting price = $60,100
7 speed DCT option = $2,900
Total price = $63,000 starting price.

2K3Z06

Its the Corvette forum, where the old ways die hard..............Change is bad. Give me a Holly four barrel and some bias ply tires. And 4 round tail lights as GOD intended.

Geez,

The whole Corvette team keeps saying that the Corvette is High Tech halo car, but everyone here stills wants a antique 6 speed. A proper DCT is a beautiful thing, those who have some seat time will testify.

To be technology leader that the corvette is and should be, A DCT is must in my book.

And GM can build a reliable DCT just as it can build a reliable auto, it ain't rocket science. Speaking of which, we went to the freaking moon 40 years ago, with a whole lot less technology. A DCT transmission is well within the means of GM powertrain engineers.

Relax guys, sometimes change is good.

My .02

JerriVette

The corvette team is not putting a DcT in the c7.

I wish it would but it's just not happening.

Let's see the 8 speed automatic and listen to the reviews when they hit.

I'm sure the c7 a8 will outperform the DcT test vehicles GM tried before deciding to go with its new A8.

Manual only will be what's coming with the track conquering Z06

JMO

musclecar6

I agree.

HZ3

In my opinion you should be the one to shut up. 10 grand? If your cutoff point is 10G for a BMW M Class or Corvette for that matter you have more serious issues than winning a forum argument that's the same price point he's right YOUR WRONG.

The Corvette could afford a DCT if the faux rich hillbilly geriatrics can't afford the extra rack TO BAD.

Daekwan06

Yet another idiot. Its not about right or wrong. Its about simple math. A $10,000 difference.. or in this case a 20% price increase on a $50K car.. does not make these cars the EQUALLY priced.

Do I even need mention that after spending $10,000 more for the M3 (even with DCT).. that it is still slower. And outperformed by the cheaper C7 in every single performance measurement. Isnt the point of wanting DCT, more performance? Why spend 20% more money for the slower car? But please continue the ignorance. I love it!

HZ3

Cool story bro your still a jerk off... your tonality would get you punched in the face in person as would a lot of people's here. On to the subject though...

I'm actually going to be cross shopping an M4 and a C7 Z06 and I'm headed to the NAIS next month. After talking with both AE Performance ESS and VF Engineering two out of three shops are anything but confident they will be able to push the new inline six past 650 HP safely. Your logic is as in depth as perhaps a fourth graders when comparing a Base Corvette to an M3. Your paying for the luxury factor it's not like a DCT is the primary reason for the price difference. DCT M3s are almost always faster in the quarter mile stock for stock vs manual. M3s are slower than Corvettes not only as a result of curb weight not being comparable in the outgoing generation but other factors as well.

If GM even wants to charge 5K for a superior DCT that increases performance over a manual I would be willing to pay. I suck at a manual and I would be happy to see that as an option. Also I love throwing money in people's faces. It makes me hard up here...

Really the reality is a DCT is an applicable option for a Z car. There is no reason it CAN'T have one. Ill be the first to admit I am not a genius when it comes to cars. What I do like to do is go fast though. The one thing I know is I can afford a DCT if its an option. People like you are popping up everywhere crying about pricing. If you can't afford it get another car or wait another model year.

I'm done arguing though ill either buy one or I won't. Pricetag won't make a difference to me.

crease-guard

...best post in this entire thread

Guibo

I wouldn't use Aston as a model of how to do things. They probably don't use a dual clutch not because they prefer the automated single clutch, but because they can't afford to develop one. They sell about 7k per year of all models (Vantage, Vanquish, Rapide) combined, and only recently within the past few years recorded their first profit in 40 years. As to the performance of that transmission, it's not exactly stellar. Randy Pobst on the Vanquish S:
"Transmission’s slow, squishy. Transmission feels like a slushbox. It would have been very good 10 years ago. But now, it’s behind the times with the more modern transmissions that shift so quickly."

UK mags like TopGear haven't like it either, and note the recent Aston-Mercedes agreement:
"As I said back in December when Aston acquired new financial backing, it needed a tie-up with an entity like Mercedes because it's too small to develop the big stuff alone.
This week's announcement specifically includes Aston using an adapted version of an AMG V8. Good. I like the current Aston V8 well enough, but compared with rivals it lacks direct injection or turbos, and that means its 430bhp is barely enough these days, and it's thirsty. Transmissions have never been our favourite parts of Astons either. AMG will be able to help, possibly with its dual-clutch unit, or its multiple-plate clutched autobox called MCT."

Guibo

I would have added the SS and Holden's Monaro to that list, but it looks like GM may be shuttering that operation. Would be interesting to know if Australians in general view their performance sedan as lacking technology and sophistication compared to the foreign brands. Opel is hurting badly in Europe, and VWs with DCTs could be a part of their problem. In the UK, the Monaro/VXR8 duo peaked with ~490 units combined in a couple years before the recession, while the M5 with even the old SMG gearbox recorded over 900 units in a similar period. And the M5 was more expensive; a VXR8 GTS could be had with 576 bhp for £54,999 (about as much as a 414 hp M3 with a few basic options). The new-generation M5 managed over 1000 units there in the past couple of years, and that's a much worse car buying scene than before the recession.


As for the cost...many of the cars mentioned (458, etc) cost that much because they are built in far lower volumes, and because their manufacturers can charge those prices. Anyone who thinks it costs Ferrari anywhere near $1700 for some fender badges needs his head checked.
FWIW, here are some transmission option prices for the BMW 1-Series, a car that costs far less than the Corvette:
2011: 6-speed automatic (128i) - $1,375
2011: 7-speed DCT (135i) - $1,575
2012: 6-speed automatic (128i) - $0
2012: 7-speed DCT (135i) - $450

Obviously, an automatic transmission should cost more to develop and manufacture than a manual, yet BMW offered it at no extra charge. Was BMW being benevolent in not charging extra for the auto? Not at all. All of these cars, whether it's a bottom-rung BMW or a Corvette or a 458 has a profit margin padded into the price (in the case of the Ferrari, it's quite huge). If they have the will and the funding to make the transmission work, they'll do it. And it won't necessarily add $12k or $20k or whatever to the car's price.
Back in the day, a Ferrari 456's automatic was over $60k to replace. Was it really that much better than the GM transmission upon which it was based? Nope.

Jasil

Like many others I wish a true DCT was a option I would pony up in a heartbeat.

Daekwan06

1) In what dream world do you live in.. where you think YOU wouldnt get punched back in the face? Or worse?

2) The DCT in the M3.. is a totally different animal than what a DCT in the Vette would require. Transmissions are rated on based the amount of TORQUE THEY CAN HANDLE.. not the horsepower. You can thank me later for teaching you that. The M3 only puts out 295 ft/lbs of torque. The base C7 puts out 460 ft/lbs of torque.. almost twice as much!!! I guess I should also tell you the transmission in the C7 is MOUNTED IN THE REAR of the car for better balance, not the front like the M3. Also consider the C7's 5yr/100K powertrain warranty covers TWICE as much mileage as the M3.

Think about all of that for one minute. As complicated and expensive as DCT transmissions are, its a $3000 option in the M3. To put a DCT in the C7.. it would have to handle TWICE as much torque as the DCT in the M3, warrantied for TWICE as long as the one in the M3.. and would have to be designed for installation the OPPOSITE direction of the one in the M3. Finally after going through all that effort this DCT will only go into ONE car that GM sells.

Imagine what costs are to build such a unique, single purposed solution. If the DCT option for the base C7 was a $10,000 option would you still be interested in one? What about other people? How many could GM realistically sell? These are all parts of a very complicated equation that needs to be solved before GM will offer a DCT in the Corvette. And every one of the things I named are all major factors why the Corvette has not recieved a DCT option yet.

3) If we are talking about putting a DCT in a "Z" Corvette, a car that will be a SUPERCHARGED version of the base car. Then please know the torque output will be much higher than 460 ft/lbs of the base car. It will be more like 650-700 ft/lbs. How much do you think a single purposed DCT option to handle that much torque would cost? Would you still be interested in a $20,000 DCT option on a Z Corvette? What about other people? How many could GM realistically sell?

4) Now that you are hearing some facts, take some time to go back.. IN THIS THREAD.. and read my older posts. I already said that I also would be very interested in a Corvette with a DCT. That said, Im not GM nor am I the tooth fairy. I cant just make a wish and an affordable DCT will appear as option for the Corvette. Reality is there are many factual reasons why GM hasn't offered a DCT in the Corvette yet. To even quote myself:

jvp

You might want to check back after a few years worth of each of those models are sold, to see just how many are, in fact produced. (Answer: not a lot).

So, no. That's not the right answer. You need to think: pick-ups and other passenger cars. Things that sell in the many 10s of thousands of units per year.

Guibo

And yet the Z4 Sdrive35i's DCT is rated for 300 lb-ft (that's 5 more than the M3), and that option only costs $450 in the Z4. The Z4 Sdrive35is has the DCT as standard, and it's the same transmission (same BMW part number). That car produces 35 lb-ft more than the M3. All of these transmissions are essentially the same unit, the Getrag GS7D36SG. While torque ratings are important, they don't tell you the whole story.
The price difference to the consumer seems to have more to do with volume or profit margins. BMW doesn't build the DCT just for the M3; it builds it for use in the 1-Series and the regular 3-Series. But because the M3 is a cash cow, they can bump the price up to whatever they think the market will support. Despite the options price difference to the consumer, the M3's DCT didn't cost BMW 6 times more to develop, yet that's what they can charge for it. It doesn't make much sense from an R&D POV that an automatic is a $0 cost option over a manual, yet there it is.

It wouldn't have to be a single purposed solution. Check the list of cars already mentioned. The CTS-V and ZL1 had essentially the same engine as the ZR1, with their transmissions mounted up front. The transmission location is not a deal breaker, if GM can plan the platforms accordingly.

Daekwan06

I agree with what you said. One of the best ways to make a DCT option more affordable for everyone involved (manufacturers & customers).. is to be able to use that same DCT in several different platforms/models. I have already said that in the last statement, of my last post.

If a GM designed a new DCT was versatile enough to go into other vehicles, then surely could bring down the entire cost of the unit. That's generally what every major manufacturer has done so far.. which is why you see DCT's now available in vehicles with prices as low as $20K range. For example: Ford has a DCT (called the Powershift) which has been available in the Fiesta and Focus for a while now. Lets not forget those cars also only output a maximum of about 200ft/lbs of torque.

So lets say GM took your advice and designed a DCT that could be used in both front & rear applications.. so that it can fit the C7, CTS and Camaro platforms. Lets just talk about how much it would realistically cost GM to offer a DCT in just the base $52K Stingray. I will not even consider the CTS-V & ZL1 just yet, because both vehicles are supercharged 6.2L V8's and output MUCH more torque than the base $52K Stingray.

So what DCT's are currently on the market that can handle the 460ft/lb torque of the $52K Stingray? Here are the closest DCT matches I can locate:

The $100K GTR has a DCT that can handle 463ft/lbs of torque (http://www.motortrend.com/cars/2013/...pecifications/)
The $111K BMW M6 has a DCT that can handle 500ft/lbs of torque (http://www.motortrend.com/cars/2013/...pecifications/)
The $148K Porsche Turbo has a DCT that can handle 487ft/lbs of torque (http://www.motortrend.com/cars/2014/...pecifications/)
The $200K Mercedes SLS AMG has a DCT that can handle 479 ft/lbs (http://www.motortrend.com/cars/2013/...pecifications/)

I am not making up these prices of these cars. I've included links for every vehicle mentioned, so you can see for yourself how much vehicles with DCT's that handle this much torque cost. No DCT car that can handle 460ft/lbs of torque is even close to the $52K base price of the C7 Stingray, $55K ZL1 and $63K CTS-V. You have to start at the $100K mark to access that kind of technology. So for like the 10th time in this thread.. while GM could offer a new DCT transmission. That can be used in the C7, CTS-V & ZL1 (to bring down the cost of R&D). I'm guesstimating such an option would still cost the customer somewhere around $8-10K. The question still remains.. who's really going to pay for it? And how many of them would realistically sell?

Once you get past that hurdle. You still are faced with the problem that nobody in the current production car market has designed a DCT that can handle a Z-Vette torque output (650 ft/lbs).. at any close to what can be considered a "reasonable" price. At first I thought a production DCT that can handle that much didnt even exist, but of course there are some actual production DCT vehicles that can handle that much torque. The Bugatti Veyron is always the first to come to mind. It has a DCT that can handle 922ft/lbs of torque. Anybody want to take a guess how much just the DCT in the Veyron costs? Here I'll give you a clue:

The transmission is a dual-clutch direct-shift gearbox computer-controlled automatic with seven gear ratios, with magnesium paddles behind the steering wheel and a shift time of less than 150 milliseconds, built by Ricardo of England rather than Borg-Warner, who designed the six speed DSG used in the mainstream Volkswagen Group marques. The Veyron can be driven in either semi-automatic or fully automatic mode. A replacement transmission for the Veyron costs just over US $120,000.

Skullbussa

1) Talking about punching people in the face is very mature. Good job. I am sure your family/friends are proud of you.

2) Your argument is that the M3 DCT could not handle Corvette power. That's interesting, considering Supercharged M3s putting over 550hp to the wheels are using this wimpy DCT without issue. And let's ignore the long list of modified cars like GT-Rs, 911 Turbos, etc that are all making far more HP than even the ZR1 and all are using DCT transmissions.

3) Even the kings of Option Rip-Offery, Porsche, charge a whopping $4000 for the DCT option on the 911. BMW charges half that. In cars with much lower production numbers than the Corvette.

4) You are trying to make excuses for GM, to give them a handicap. Guess what? They don't need your excuses. We have every reason to expect a lot of GM because they will DELIVER.

I doubt anyone in this thread continues to read your posts because they are so anti-DCT it is bordering on comedy.

Whether you want a DCT or not, the Z06 is simply going to need to have one if it wants to compete in the market for which it is intended. A 7 speed manual may be an option (hopefully!) but a DCT is mandatory for people who want to use the Z06 for the reason it was conceived: the track. If the DCT isn't standard on the Z06 it will be a negligible cost-option to put one on the car; I doubt it will be even as much as the 2LZ to 3LZ jump.



There are more Corvettes produced in a single year than all the years of GT-R's combined. Any of the cars I have listed here are sold in much higher numbers than 911 Turbos, GT-Rs, M3s, 458 Italias, etc.

GM excels at bringing HIGH TECH and PERFORMANCE to the masses at reduced cost. Look at their engine and suspension offerings. Why would the transmission be any different?

Knome

You forgot one...Ferrari FF...503ft/lbs and AWD. Price...well, more than any of the ones you have listed.

jvp

Just when I think you're not quite grasping the concept of volumes of sales, you almost prove me wrong. Power train pieces are hellaciously expensive to design and engineer. Engines are big, big money to develop. If it weren't for the truck division in GM taking on the brunt of that R&D cost for the engine, our Corvettes would probably cost twice what they do. Seriously.

The same would apply to a high-torque DCT. It would have to be applied to a vehicle line that sells in several tens of thousands of units per year in order to be cost effective in the Corvette. Otherwise the Corvette's price would catapult northward. The boutique cars you mentioned in your previous post aren't enough.