Guibo

Well behind? I thought objective performance were all that mattered. That should have vaulted them to the head of the market (and the Viper ACR as well).
I noticed you didn't answer my question: Have you personally been invited (or hired in) to critique a manufacture's car during development? Spare me the lecture about making money. I already know that relationship. But neither side is going to be making any money if the cars aren't built and sold and that requires input from consumer$.

Maybe there aren't many purely objective product tests done in any market, perhaps because consumers don't look at them purely from an objective point of view. If they did, there would never be any variety.
I didn't ask you to speak for me. I asked if you agreed. Sheesh!!
And that has been my point all along. Why you continue to badger me (and not those of the opposing viewpoint) suggests you have taken sides.

Or maybe some manufacturers do a better job of appealing to the things that they really like and can appreciate more often (which doesn't include 10/10ths track testing). That doesn't sound so out of line with how most consumers buy them, and how most manufacturers have responded to consumers' needs.

Some mags do, and whenever the Corvette loses, people still cry foul. Enough so that C&D even published this:

http://www.caranddriver.com/features...omparo-feature
So there is no theory that you subscribe to with respect to journalist testing, other than to complain that they interject too much subjectivity (on a sliding scale that you can't even define) and are just pointless, and that you disagree with their results. Ok.

That's not all I asked you. I also asked you:
"The Cadillac has higher numbers, but which do you think is more fun?"

You have no idea how they compare...so why not consider the opinions of those who have driven them both? The CTS-V did blow away the Miata on the larger track, but that could be due more to its massive power and torque advantage. Not because it takes corners marginally faster.
Track times are all that is required to assess what a good track car is? Again, I'm talking about using a road car for the track (HPDE type stuff), not using a bone stock production car for racing.

I didn't say anything about which car is more popular at the track. I said some people buy Boxsters and use them on the track even though for a similar price, they could have gotten and used an M3 instead. Not sure how you can "disagree completely" with that. Of course older generations will be out there. They are generally cheaper, not to mention they've been in production longer than Boxsters.

Sure there are. I'd wager a 'Ring cam would show far more Boxsters/Caymans on track than CTS-Vs. The Porsche clubs run many events at many tracks all across the US...how many Cadillac clubs do the same? There is even a spec Boxster class:
http://www.boxsterspecracing.org/bsrrules.html
Where's the one for the CTS-V?
My point is people will buy a car within a market (low-slung sports car), even if it is objectively slower than a car in another market (tall sedan).

Then why do you think objective differences mean so much (your basis for criticizing mag tests, remember), considering Corvette buyers spec up cars in ways that don't maximize objective performance?
As for common sense, I can't even get you to answer this question:
"Do those reasons seem reasonable to you, for why the BMW placed lower in a test designed to find the best driver's car?"

Guibo

I don't consider asking if there is merit to what GM (and Lotus, Ferrari, Porsche, BMW, Jaguar, etc.) wants in a car is "logical fallacy." It's a legitimate question.
I don't exist here only to stir the pot. Another false statement.
I've presented points that subjectivity matters. It matters to manufacturers, customers, and journalists.

VIN666

So the Vette beat the Viper, the Cayman S beat the Vette.
Does that mean the Cayman S is a better driver´s car than the Viper?

Guibo

Thanks for that insight.

Lavender

The 12C felt like a faster GTR to me. It has so much nannies its freaky. And I have owned a 458 for couple weeks. None of them could net even half the thrill I'm getting in either my GT2 or my fathers Z06. Perhaps I had higher expectation for both cars than I should of had which led to my frustration...

I agree about the subjective part. And now when GT2 and GT3 having PDK transmission only...What choice do we have.......?

Lavender

Nothings a better drivers car than a Porsche Cayman S. What comes out of the mouths of the journalists = Word of God. Period.

Guibo

Seemed to be the consensus when Motor Trend tested them together:
http://www.motortrend.com/features/p...r/viewall.html

johnglenntwo

TC helps keep excessive truck torque, cold tires, and/or road/track conditions from biting! They should keep it "ON" if need be when testing and shut the "F" up about it, and the Vette would then do better!

Using the aircraft metaphorical statment was similar to one I made a while back. Well done!

jimmyb

What happened to me???? Why, after reading these interminable tomes you are so GIDDY about writing, would I get involved in a thread that you seem hell bent on dominating.

So, I DEFER (and):

I bow down to GUIBO
I don't know as much as GUIBO
I certainly don't have enough time to debate GUIBO

Boys, he's all yours. I have to go clean my combs (or something equally important).

Jimmy

PS. What I DO know is that I have driven most of the cars that have been discussed in this thread and after 4 decades of driving SPORTS cars, I am not inclined to go dig up what Pat Bedard wrote about the 930 Turbo/etc just to make a point on an internet forum.

Guibo

The comment you were addressing had to do with road driving, in which case faster lap is largely irrelevant. Or are you talking about only those who drive on a track? If that were true, most other sports car buyers would only choose one car (the fastest one), but we know that's not true.
The largest impression is not the number. The context definitely matters (you in the passenger seat vs you in the driver's seat taking control). By the same token, the car that pulls the higher g reading but tells you nothing about how it behaves when you breach the 0.05 g higher level could leave the greatest of all impressions: bodywork crumpled into the guardrail or mountainside.

tuxnharley

..............and thank God we can't! Why in the world would we want +/- $2k engine work after +/- 30k miles? SBC Chevy engines have been known to last 200k + miles!

Guibo

Not dominating. Just discussing here. Chill out.
Sure you have.

Guibo

And some much shorter than that *cough*LS7.
I'm talking about the quality as were discussing it before (interior, fit & finish, panel gaps, etc).

Achmed

I stopped reading after the very first phrase of the article "Forget the numbers and know this: The 2014 Porsche...."

Okay, to be completely honest I continued and read a total of 2.5 lines of the article before closing it.

What a dumb statement "forget about the numbers." How convenient. Porsche sucks when it comes to numbers (relative to the C7) so as a result we should forget about the numbers lol.

Not worth my time to read the rest of the article.

punky

"forget the numbers", Ya gotta love that one. That is the Porsche humpers usual response unless there is a unique instance where the Porsche has a good # of sorts and then it is an entirely different story!

The import lovers have resorted to praising their overpriced, underpowered, Corvette competitors for the seat stitching or the quality of their cup holders. The best is when these guys come off with idiotic remarks like "The Porsche just feels better". These guys just never give up praising the imports in a defacto attempt to downgrade the C7. The C7 is their worst nightmare come true. They know it and hate it.

johnglenntwo

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-c...rburgring.html

(Post 83 to 111 is a classic!)

Especially notice when the MPSCs come in and how someone drops out! Classic!

CorvetteFerrariFTW

Do you say that because the GT2 and GT3 (will) offer only a DCT? You prefer a manual or you just like th cars better?

Paws

Edmunds can suck eggs !!!!! The C7 is the superior car even if the Porsche's price were 25K less (which it's not)..... not to mention the MUCH higher maintenance costs.
Jaded, biased reporting... JMHO

tuxnharley

What - so mechanical reliability isn't an indicator of quality? Let's all just sit on leather couches instead.................

LS7? - what we're talking about here in relation to the Autoweek article is base model 911s and Boxsters, not the ZO6/LS7 comparable GT2s,GT3s, and Turbos. Try reading the article - the base model Pcars are what's included in the class action law suit.

So, the applicable comparison is base model cars/engines. The 911 discussed in the article had its engine fail after 26k miles. Some Porsche quality that is.......

I know you're a stickler for valid comparisons...............

Guibo

Mechanical reliability is only one indicator of quality. It doesn't encompass everything, nor was it relevant to the point I was addressing.
Yeah, let's keep pretending base Corvettes don't have their own share of problems; or are you saying that reliability quality is reserved only for base Corvettes? Meanwhile, you ignore the fact that the 2009+ Porsches don't have that problem. The '08 911s surveyed for the 2011 JD Power survey already had the lowest problem rate of all cars (and that by extension includes the Corvette). Even in the thick of that time period you're talking about, Porsche still had dependability scores near the top: