Foosh

And I'm sure they also have very little activity compared to this one. I'm talking primarily about large, diverse, and active forums.

jimmyb

FerrariChat is very active. The others, not so much.

jimmyb

Not really the point. This was a nice gesture for Jim that, with your help, turned into the usual pissing match. Curious why you felt the need to do it?

LT1 Z51

I shared my opinion. I feel that people, not just Jim, shouldn't be congratulated for things they duidn't do. So I stated that. People took offense to my comments, I responded.

It's not my fault people do not like my opinion on that or my opinion of Jim's work. If someone is going to come in and insult me or wants to debate my opinion, I'm going to of course oblige. What would your course of action be? Don't share unwanted or unpopular opinions? I don't want to be in a place where that's the norm.

jimmyb

No, it's not your fault that people don't like your opinion...
But, this thread was started to congratulate a guy on his retirement, and you turned it into something else. I certainly don't KNOW what Jim's level of "tuning" was, it's just odd that at one point you blame Jim for MSRC/ESP tuning (or parts of it) and then say that he had nothing to do with other parts of it. Wouldn't the better path have been to just leave it alone...you know...."if you can't say something nice..."
The fact that you work for Ford doesn't help your cause and if you don't see that, I don't know what to tell you. And a big reason the guy is revered here is because of his driving skills and the fact that an engineer (not a professional race driver) set RECORDS in Corvettes.

PS. There are a LOT of guys on here that have had interactions with Jim at the Bash and other places. He made enough of a good impression, that piling on with your "opinion" seems disingenuous at the least and jealous at the best.

LT1 Z51

I tell it like it is.

For the record I was a supplier resident at GM for 3 years, and worked on the Y1XX program for 2 of those years (Y1XX is the C7 in GM speak). My working currently for Ford is inconsequential.

jimmyb

No problem. Then start a thread and do an expose on all the Corvette team members, if that's what floats your boat.

And...
You tell it as you "SEE" it...Jim obviously disagrees with YOUR assessment so be careful about thinking your OPINION is FACT.

LT1 Z51

It should be understood without question that anything anyone posts online without any sort of documentation is an opinion.

Facts need to be documented and cited. This I thought is generically understood. Maybe it's not and that's why we've got some many people walking around sprouting other peoiple's opinions like they are facts.

Just because I say (or anyone else says) it with an air of authority or a matter of fact type wording doesn't change that it is in fact an opinion. Doing that is to bring strength to your opinion and is a form of arguing technique.

There are many threads where I've made my opinions known on GM and how they do business. Even my personal experience, which could be construed as factual, is clouded by my own viewpoint and therefore also technically an opinion.

vette friend

I'll take it one step further, IMO Jim's reply proved he is flat out lying. One of them is, and I am 100% certain it isn't Jim. Enough of us here have had contact with Jim directly or indirectly, to know enough that he would have not responded the way he did with a fabricated story. IMO LT1 Z51 seems like the individual who is fabricating stories, and subsequently doubles down on them digging his hole deeper and deeper....

LT1 Z51

I don't see what's fabricated. Jim hasn't proven anything, but my opinion isn't relative because you believe Jim as a trusted source and you don't believe me. That's fine, you can have your opinion and I have mine.

I'm the one who works in the car industry and knows what is and isn't happening behind the scenes. We can play the semantics game but I stand by my statements. The fact that what I said prompted a defensive response from Jim should be enough to put doubt into people's minds that there is something they want to hide.

GM had an image they want to keep with customers. The problem is versus other OEMs they don't do as much tuning, and they do lean on their suppliers a lot. This doesn't mesh well with their message so of course they will quash it.

The fact you guys Rah Rah to GM about this means your not interested in other opinions. I live this industry everyday. I don't need you're confirmation to know what I see.

I think you're a very angry person who has for some reason an idolized opinion of Jim and what he claims to have done. It's bordering on worship and that's just unhealthy. The fact that I can't even express dislike of a person is pretty amazing. Some of you need to stop drinking the Kool-Aid.

Parcival

LT1 Z51

I didn't say the work was unsatisfactory, I said one shouldn't be congratulate for work one didn't do. Typically this would not happen, but since this is an internet forum and the vast majority of you have absolutely no clue how anything in automotive works it of course did. I only expressed my opinion otherwise. At a real retirement party no one would congratulate a person on tasks they didn't do.

I don't fault anyone for not knowing the ins and outs of the industry or the ins and outs of GM specifically. But as a person who worked onsite with GM (supplier residents are embedded in GM facilities and work side by side with GM employees), I'd expect that my opinion would be left alone to just exist. Apparently this isn't the case. God forbid anyone say something bad about a person.

I could go into details, at least on the steering side about boost curves, torque values, d-factors, damping curves, compensation algorithms, PDC calibrations, SRS calibrations, or even the tools used like CANape or INCA with an A2L file. Having worked at Bosch, I know Jim did not have the full A2L file (that's the file needed by the calibration software CANape or INCA needed to access variables on the EPS), so some of the above items couldn;t be done. Do you guys care, probably not. You probably only care about the main boost and damping curves which contribute the bulk of steering feel. But high pass and low pass filters as well as the various compensation algorithms do effect your road feel significantly at the end of the day and GM just isn't tuning those. Bosch does not let them.

jimmyb

I have always enjoyed your insight but you REALLY need to back off on this one.
In the process of "keeping it real", you're looking petty.

LT1 Z51

I'm willing to admit that I am looking petty. Because I really don't like that GM lies about who develops their vehicles. They trot out staffs of engineers who supposedly do all these things but in reality lots of supplier engineers do a lot (if not all) the work. Most components are entirely designed by the supplier with limited input (outside of meeting test criteria) from GM. As a former supplier engineer, I feel that my old colleagues are not adequately given credit for the work they do. Instead GM tires to make their engineers famous and seem like they are "the masters of all." It makes me ill, and I have made it a crusade of mine to smash this viewpoint.

The corporate culture GM has in this regard disgusts me. It's why even though I grew up loving GM and only buying GM cars that now I'd never work there or buy any of their future product. I'm amazed at how they even function as a company. The insights I gain changed my opinion of them 180 degrees, and I feel a bit lied to for most of my life, which really bothers me. It's obvious here that I take this topic very personal.

Industry wide I don't think the right people get credit for the work they do. Too much is given to management and upper level guys who really only guide a topic, they don't actually achieve the goal. The regular engineers in the trenches and the various suppliers and sub-suppliers do the work and don't get the credit. People think I have issue with Jim, you don't want me to get started on Tadge. That topic is even more volatile.

Foosh

​​​​​​​Agree, I've always found LT1 Z51 to be a credible and valuable resource on this forum. However, no good can come from a continuation of this particular debate.

2500 hd

jimmyb

I'll make it easier for you, then. This is an "enthusiasts" site. This site (and all the others) make up a TINY fraction of Corvette owners. If you put 100 Corvette owners in a room, how many have ever HEARD of Tadge or Jim or Harlan, etc??? I bet not many. So, while it may be your "crusade", it's going to reach as many eyes as knowledge of the Corvette team players does.
I went back and read Jim's response and what his contribution was to the "tuning" of EPS/MSRC (POST #32). I suggest you do the same. Is he lying, in your opinion? Because it seems pretty clear what he did in tuning MSRC and his contribution to the steering and in no way sounded "defensive". He simply stated what HE did.

As far as Tadge, you've made your distaste for him very clear over the years. The point that you miss is that while Tadge gets the accolades when things are good, he will also get his *** kicked when things are BAD. And then, being a faceless/nameless embedded engineer from a supplier won't seem like such a bad gig.

AORoads

Having come from not one, but several large corporations and being on "the inside", I happen to know of what lt1 speaks of when he writes of the bulk of work being done outside of the big company. But, both his assessment of, and timeline are way off esp. for other industries besides the car companies. It can be argued (but it would be incorrect to do so) that the car companies were late to the party of "out-sourcing," such things as supplying, engineering, creating, etc.

There is a huge logic and rationale for utilizing the brains and creative energy OUTSIDE of in-house engineers and real do-ers. First and foremost is cost. It can be, and is less costly to contract out ("job out", "out-source", "vendor-design/produce", etc.) not just individual parts and whole-componentry manufacturing, but the entire process: idea-to-conception, R&D/cad, reliability testing, production, real world testing, final production, etc. and thus delivering a finished product to the company. The cost is also reduced because of not having to have salaried persons with all the benefits on board. What is needed in-house are less narrowly-focused technologists who are specialists. In many instances, these people are specialists in engineering or other technical fields, with oversight and making sure things work together.

This didn't start 10 or 20 years ago. It began with some companies taking it on as a way to do biz in the late 70s, or for some, in the very early 80s.

Are these "approvers" as called by lt1? Not in the strict sense since their capabilities, while not as rifle-focused as some vendors/engineering companies, still had to comprehend all that was being proposed or done for them AND they also added onto or improved from the first iteration. Along the way, both the in-house people and the vendor/engineer/supplier learned something about the other's needs, capabilities, functions---mutually beneficial is what I'd call it.

To my reading, Jim Mero's response isn't an apparent defensive move because his ego was hurt. It was an explanation of what HE did vs. what was being written about him. Fair enough response to me.

Just because lt1 is in the industry and works at it every day doesn't make his position or views that much more correct. It is another view point, an opinion, but not the final and indisputable word on this subject. We've heard from both. Let our decisions be guided by what we've read---this is my opinion.

Crossed Flags Fan

lt1 - you're wrong for persisting in defending yourself in knocking Jim when the topic of the thread was to congratulate him on his retirement.
In my 40 years in management in several industries I've had to deal with your type of lack of self awareness and boorish behavior. I also have family members who have the same affliction in needing to always counter a comment or "set the record straight". Your presence at meetings and gatherings usually sets off the "oh no - he's here" alarms in people's heads. You may be quite smart, but not very bright.
No one is going to change your mind or your behavior (especially on an internet forum). This is just how you're wired.
So please, for once, let this argument go.
Jim - congrats, enjoy your new life and be glad you're no longer having to deal with this mishegoss!.

Parcival