Wreckless driving ticket, cop wasnt even there!
10-31-2013, 01:34 PM
#141
Simply not true!
There are many naive folks on here. I hope they don't believe these statements. Sounds like some personal issue you have.
What city do these bad cops work in?
Note: The word naive is not meant to sound condescending. Most of us are naive in this area.
There are many naive folks on here. I hope they don't believe these statements. Sounds like some personal issue you have.
What city do these bad cops work in?
Note: The word naive is not meant to sound condescending. Most of us are naive in this area.
the following is 100% true in 100% of the jurisdictions in the US:
its best to never say one word to a cop or DA except a polite no comment.
it would be incredibly naive to ignore this rule. look at the original poster. the fact pattern is absurd, yet because he spoke to an officer, he's in much worse shape.
many very good family and friends of mine are judges, DA's, defense attorneys, and even police, and all of them would agree if you talk off the record. the stories i hear, EVERY DAY, would shock most americans. i am a lawyer. i am a good citizen by most any definition. i am generally conservative and a proponent of the death penalty. but i am MORE of a proponent of the highest standards of ethics and competence in law enforcement, and the innocent until proven guilty concept.
the truth is, unless you personally know someone in charge of the investigation, really well, you are not better off by talking to them. odds are they will use every tool in the game to get a conviction against you, whether they think you may be innocent or not, and you'd better play the game by not giving them anything.
some officers are corrupt, most are not; but even a good person in LE lives in an environment that has become inherently unfriendly to citizens and starts to rub off. modern law enforcement is trained to mislead you into making a statement against your interest, whether you know you are doing it or not. and they are trained to make an arrest whenever possible (or worse). they are trained to testify to support the conviction.
it is not the 'good old days' where good people went into law enforcement and were encouraged to use their good judgment to 'protect and serve' the people they interact with. that kind of good judgment and shepherding of society is discouraged now in many ways, actively and passively. modern law enforcement has become a conviction mill by design.
modern DA's incentivize their staff to get convictions. and many will lie and conceal evidence to do so. they will even lie to prospective jury panels about the law - openly, regularly, and in open court, unless there is a court reporter present.
modern judges are pressured to generate revenue...by convictions or 'deferred adjudication'
and i'm not just talking about traffic tickets. google 'houston crime lab investigation' for just one example.
to sum it up, they (i.e. government trying to protect itself - this was not some bleeding heart investigation) sampled about 800 serious felony cases over 15 or so years, and they found that almost 200 of those cases were both actually wrongful convictions and convictions based upon falsified, omitted, hidden or destroyed exculpatory evidence as a result of prosecutorial or officer misconduct.
other examples....
http://truthinjustice.org/p-pmisconduct.htm
http://www.propublica.org/article/re...cutor-on-trial
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3529891.html
http://www.prosecutorintegrity.org/w...Misconduct.pdf
this is a mouthful, but i owe it to people on this forum to let them know some facts, as in many places, driving a corvette is tantamount to a fine-able offense.
10-31-2013, 01:38 PM
#142
Drifting
There is a Constitutional right to face your accuser.
The "Confrontation Clause" or the 6th Amendment of the Constitution states "the accused shall enjoy the right…to be confronted with the witnesses against him (in criminal cases)." Further, the due process clauses of the 5th and 14th Amendments also require provide for the right of confrontation [of whom?] (in addition to state statutes).
The "Confrontation Clause" or the 6th Amendment of the Constitution states "the accused shall enjoy the right…to be confronted with the witnesses against him (in criminal cases)." Further, the due process clauses of the 5th and 14th Amendments also require provide for the right of confrontation [of whom?] (in addition to state statutes).
That's the main reason for the evidentiary rule prohibiting hearsay.
The right to remain silent predates the rule against hearsay.
10-31-2013, 01:42 PM
#143
Melting Slicks
I'd fight it. Maybe you can get it reduced to douche driving. Really,,,,, impressing your 9 yr old by scaring the neighbor ????
10-31-2013, 03:27 PM
#144
Le Mans Master
I'd like to know how close to the street is the mailbox? And, how close was he to your car? it may only be that you startled him.....most people are not looking around when they pick up the mail, you know, they are flipping through the letters, etc. Truth is a motorcycle is as loud or most likely louder than your C7, and you should bring that up in court....those bikes have been getting away with super annoying pipes for decades while cars have been straddled with EPA regulated systems. I am assuming GM met all standards for exhaust noise in order to make the vehicle available for sale to the public. Does the manual state anything about track mode being illegal from a noise standpoint? This is a sticky situation, but if you can show the car meets all federal guidelines you should have no issues in court.
good luck
10-31-2013, 04:11 PM
#146
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Oh. surprising. another internet smart ***. I did it to listen to the different exhaust sounds. I think most people who actually have a C7 have done this.
10-31-2013, 04:14 PM
#147
Melting Slicks
every word of it is true in most jurisdictions in the US. the only time it may not be true is if something about you personally gives the LE person involved a reason to be on your side regardless of the facts.... and you should never count on that.
the following is 100% true in 100% of the jurisdictions in the US:
its best to never say one word to a cop or DA except a polite no comment.
it would be incredibly naive to ignore this rule. look at the original poster. the fact pattern is absurd, yet because he spoke to an officer, he's in much worse shape.
many very good family and friends of mine are judges, DA's, defense attorneys, and even police, and all of them would agree if you talk off the record. the stories i hear, EVERY DAY, would shock most americans. i am a lawyer. i am a good citizen by most any definition. i am generally conservative and a proponent of the death penalty. but i am MORE of a proponent of the highest standards of ethics and competence in law enforcement, and the innocent until proven guilty concept.
the truth is, unless you personally know someone in charge of the investigation, really well, you are not better off by talking to them. odds are they will use every tool in the game to get a conviction against you, whether they think you may be innocent or not, and you'd better play the game by not giving them anything.
some officers are corrupt, most are not; but even a good person in LE lives in an environment that has become inherently unfriendly to citizens and starts to rub off. modern law enforcement is trained to mislead you into making a statement against your interest, whether you know you are doing it or not. and they are trained to make an arrest whenever possible (or worse). they are trained to testify to support the conviction.
it is not the 'good old days' where good people went into law enforcement and were encouraged to use their good judgment to 'protect and serve' the people they interact with. that kind of good judgment and shepherding of society is discouraged now in many ways, actively and passively. modern law enforcement has become a conviction mill by design.
modern DA's incentivize their staff to get convictions. and many will lie and conceal evidence to do so. they will even lie to prospective jury panels about the law - openly, regularly, and in open court, unless there is a court reporter present.
modern judges are pressured to generate revenue...by convictions or 'deferred adjudication'
and i'm not just talking about traffic tickets. google 'houston crime lab investigation' for just one example.
to sum it up, they (i.e. government trying to protect itself - this was not some bleeding heart investigation) sampled about 800 serious felony cases over 15 or so years, and they found that almost 200 of those cases were both actually wrongful convictions and convictions based upon falsified, omitted, hidden or destroyed exculpatory evidence as a result of prosecutorial or officer misconduct.
other examples....
http://truthinjustice.org/p-pmisconduct.htm
http://www.propublica.org/article/re...cutor-on-trial
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3529891.html
http://www.prosecutorintegrity.org/w...Misconduct.pdf
this is a mouthful, but i owe it to people on this forum to let them know some facts, as in many places, driving a corvette is tantamount to a fine-able offense.
the following is 100% true in 100% of the jurisdictions in the US:
its best to never say one word to a cop or DA except a polite no comment.
it would be incredibly naive to ignore this rule. look at the original poster. the fact pattern is absurd, yet because he spoke to an officer, he's in much worse shape.
many very good family and friends of mine are judges, DA's, defense attorneys, and even police, and all of them would agree if you talk off the record. the stories i hear, EVERY DAY, would shock most americans. i am a lawyer. i am a good citizen by most any definition. i am generally conservative and a proponent of the death penalty. but i am MORE of a proponent of the highest standards of ethics and competence in law enforcement, and the innocent until proven guilty concept.
the truth is, unless you personally know someone in charge of the investigation, really well, you are not better off by talking to them. odds are they will use every tool in the game to get a conviction against you, whether they think you may be innocent or not, and you'd better play the game by not giving them anything.
some officers are corrupt, most are not; but even a good person in LE lives in an environment that has become inherently unfriendly to citizens and starts to rub off. modern law enforcement is trained to mislead you into making a statement against your interest, whether you know you are doing it or not. and they are trained to make an arrest whenever possible (or worse). they are trained to testify to support the conviction.
it is not the 'good old days' where good people went into law enforcement and were encouraged to use their good judgment to 'protect and serve' the people they interact with. that kind of good judgment and shepherding of society is discouraged now in many ways, actively and passively. modern law enforcement has become a conviction mill by design.
modern DA's incentivize their staff to get convictions. and many will lie and conceal evidence to do so. they will even lie to prospective jury panels about the law - openly, regularly, and in open court, unless there is a court reporter present.
modern judges are pressured to generate revenue...by convictions or 'deferred adjudication'
and i'm not just talking about traffic tickets. google 'houston crime lab investigation' for just one example.
to sum it up, they (i.e. government trying to protect itself - this was not some bleeding heart investigation) sampled about 800 serious felony cases over 15 or so years, and they found that almost 200 of those cases were both actually wrongful convictions and convictions based upon falsified, omitted, hidden or destroyed exculpatory evidence as a result of prosecutorial or officer misconduct.
other examples....
http://truthinjustice.org/p-pmisconduct.htm
http://www.propublica.org/article/re...cutor-on-trial
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3529891.html
http://www.prosecutorintegrity.org/w...Misconduct.pdf
this is a mouthful, but i owe it to people on this forum to let them know some facts, as in many places, driving a corvette is tantamount to a fine-able offense.
That is a mouthful! Something we agree on.
I am a retired patrol officer with 30 years on. I worked 9 years with one department and 21 with another.
If a person has done nothing wrong and is accused of a crime, then why not explain your side of the story. You would be surprised how much you can get cleared up and not have to go further into citations, arrest, court, etc. How do you think officers can figure out traffic accidents if no one says anything?
Most people who commit a felony aren't going to say anything. We know that.
Here is a good example why it is sometimes good to speak to the police, a domestic violence situation. I figure I responded to around 3000 of them. The officers arrive and the woman has visible cuts, bruises, etc. The male has cuts, bruises also. Would you advise them to not say anything? Wrong. We need to know what happened and I would do about anything to get someone, preferably both parties, to tell me what happened. Women (almost always the abused one) are afraid to say anything for fear of more violence. My job was to protect them and I did. There are just times when police need to know what happened.
I am also a proponent of the highest standards of ethics and competence in law enforcement, and the innocent until proven guilty concept. We agree there.
No it is not 100% correct in 100% of jurisdictions to not say anything.
The op did something to attract the attention of his neighbor. In his case, while staring at a ticket, he shouldn't have said anything. It was too late at that point. Add to that what he said was, let's just say, not well thought out. It did hurt him, no question.
I saw nothing like what you are talking about in those 30 years with either department I worked for. Our officers were not trained to get people to make statements against their interests. I took thousands of them and never guided anyone. If possible I had them fill out the statements in a quiet area away from other people including me. Our administrators didn't put up with the BS you are talking about.
In 30 years with two departments I never saw a falsified report, or hidden or destroyed evidence. I never saw or heard an officer lie in court. We played by the rules. I slept well at night. Still do.
In your defense I will say these things:
Maybe things have changed. I retired 10 years ago and am somewhat out of the loop. I doubt things have changed though from my experiences to your's. Maybe a little bit.
I don't doubt some of what you say has a little bit of truth in some cities such as, but not limited to, Detroit, Chicago, New York, Miami, Cleveland, etc. A little bit.
There is a common denominator here that you say is part of the problem, judges, DA's, prosecutors, defense attorneys. You are an attorney.
Most of what you have written is not true for most of America.
You didn't say where you work. Probably a large city.
Please let us know.
What was meant by this statement?
"Many places, driving a corvette is tantamount to a fine-able offense".
Thanks for your input. The vast majority of the intelligent folks here won't believe it.
Last edited by corvette dave; 10-31-2013 at 07:13 PM.
10-31-2013, 04:45 PM
#148
Pro
every word of it is true in most jurisdictions in the US....
...the following is 100% true in 100% of the jurisdictions in the US:...
its best to never say one word to a cop or DA except a polite no comment.
the truth is, unless you personally know someone in charge of the investigation, really well, you are not better off by talking to them. odds are they will use every tool in the game to get a conviction against you, whether they think you may be innocent or not, and you'd better play the game by not giving them anything.
some officers are corrupt, most are not; but even a good person in LE lives in an environment that has become inherently unfriendly to citizens and starts to rub off. modern law enforcement is trained to mislead you into making a statement against your interest, whether you know you are doing it or not. and they are trained to make an arrest whenever possible (or worse). they are trained to testify to support the conviction.
it is not the 'good old days' where good people went into law enforcement and were encouraged to use their good judgment to 'protect and serve' the people they interact with. that kind of good judgment and shepherding of society is discouraged now in many ways, actively and passively. modern law enforcement has become a conviction mill by design.
modern DA's incentivize their staff to get convictions. and many will lie and conceal evidence to do so. they will even lie to prospective jury panels about the law - openly, regularly, and in open court, unless there is a court reporter present.
this is a mouthful, but i owe it to people on this forum to let them know some facts....
...the following is 100% true in 100% of the jurisdictions in the US:...
its best to never say one word to a cop or DA except a polite no comment.
the truth is, unless you personally know someone in charge of the investigation, really well, you are not better off by talking to them. odds are they will use every tool in the game to get a conviction against you, whether they think you may be innocent or not, and you'd better play the game by not giving them anything.
some officers are corrupt, most are not; but even a good person in LE lives in an environment that has become inherently unfriendly to citizens and starts to rub off. modern law enforcement is trained to mislead you into making a statement against your interest, whether you know you are doing it or not. and they are trained to make an arrest whenever possible (or worse). they are trained to testify to support the conviction.
it is not the 'good old days' where good people went into law enforcement and were encouraged to use their good judgment to 'protect and serve' the people they interact with. that kind of good judgment and shepherding of society is discouraged now in many ways, actively and passively. modern law enforcement has become a conviction mill by design.
modern DA's incentivize their staff to get convictions. and many will lie and conceal evidence to do so. they will even lie to prospective jury panels about the law - openly, regularly, and in open court, unless there is a court reporter present.
this is a mouthful, but i owe it to people on this forum to let them know some facts....
First of all, saying your statements apply to all cops and all jurisdictions is ludicrous and disengenuous at best.
I could tell you about countless times when someone did talk to me or officers who reported to me and, as a result of their explanation of events, were not arrested. I could also relate countless times when people spent a night or weekend in jail because they refused to talk when a simple explanation would have made it clear they weren't involved or their involvement in an incident was justified.
Saying that cops in general would railroad an innocent person is pure, unadulterated crap. Are there corrupt and dishonest cops? You bet there are. And the vast majority of law enforcement agencies do their best to weed them out. I worked Internal Affairs for five years and I can tell you my agency fired and prosecuted quite a few cops for corruption and criminal activity that we uncovered. My department and others I am very familiar with don't tolerate misconduct at any level.
Are cops trained to make an arrest "whenever possible"? No. Are cops trained to make an arrest when appropriate? Yes.
This isn't the "good old days" when good people go into law enforcement? It certainly is. Most young officers are better educated and just as motivated to serve their communities as any officer from "the good old days". Most want to protect their fellow citizens from the predators that ravage our society. Do they get cynical over the years. You bet. Intellectually dishonest posts like your, from ungrateful people help to fuel that cynicism.
Your comment about attorneys misstating the law in open court is laughable. No judge I've ever seen would ever allow an attorney get away with that. I've seen many a young attorney sternly chastised at sidebar for doing exactly that, followed by an admonition to the jury that the attorney's statement did NOT accurately describe the law.
In general your statements are inaccurate fantasy. But thanks for sharing.
Last edited by Stingray Sam; 10-31-2013 at 06:39 PM. Reason: Sp
10-31-2013, 06:21 PM
#149
Le Mans Master
There are so many contradictions and so much generalization and misinformation in your comment that I hardly know where to begin.
First of all, saying your statements apply to all cops and all jurisdictions is ludicrous and disengenuous at best.
I could tell you about countless times when someone did talk to me or officers who reported to me and, as a result of their explanation of events, we're not arrested. I could also relate countless times when people spent a night or weekend in jail because they refused to talk when a simple explanation would have made it clear they weren't involved or their involvement in an incident was justified.
Saying that cops in General would railroad an innocent person is pure, unadulterated crap. Are there corrupt and dishonest cops? You bet there are. And the vast majority of law enforcement agencies do their best to weed them out. I worked Internal Affairs for five years and I can tell you my agency fired and prosecuted quite a few cops for corruption and criminal activity that we uncovered. My department and others I am very familiar with don't tolerate misconduct at any level.
Are cops trained to make an arrest "whenever possible"? No. Are cops trained to make an arrest when appropriate? Yes.
This isn't the "good old days" when good people go into law enforcement? It certainly is. Most young officers are better educated and just as motivated to serve their communities as any officer from "the good old days". Most want to protect their fellow citizens from the predators that ravage our society. Do they get cynical over the years. You bet. Intellectually dishonest posts like your, from ungrateful people help to fuel that cynicism.
Your comment about attorneys misstating the law in open court is laughable. No judge I've ever seen would ever allow an attorney get away with that. I've seen many a young attorney sternly chastised at sidebar for doing exactly that, followed by an admonition to the jury that the attorney's statement did NOT accurately describe the law.
In general your statements are inaccurate fantasy. But thanks for sharing.
First of all, saying your statements apply to all cops and all jurisdictions is ludicrous and disengenuous at best.
I could tell you about countless times when someone did talk to me or officers who reported to me and, as a result of their explanation of events, we're not arrested. I could also relate countless times when people spent a night or weekend in jail because they refused to talk when a simple explanation would have made it clear they weren't involved or their involvement in an incident was justified.
Saying that cops in General would railroad an innocent person is pure, unadulterated crap. Are there corrupt and dishonest cops? You bet there are. And the vast majority of law enforcement agencies do their best to weed them out. I worked Internal Affairs for five years and I can tell you my agency fired and prosecuted quite a few cops for corruption and criminal activity that we uncovered. My department and others I am very familiar with don't tolerate misconduct at any level.
Are cops trained to make an arrest "whenever possible"? No. Are cops trained to make an arrest when appropriate? Yes.
This isn't the "good old days" when good people go into law enforcement? It certainly is. Most young officers are better educated and just as motivated to serve their communities as any officer from "the good old days". Most want to protect their fellow citizens from the predators that ravage our society. Do they get cynical over the years. You bet. Intellectually dishonest posts like your, from ungrateful people help to fuel that cynicism.
Your comment about attorneys misstating the law in open court is laughable. No judge I've ever seen would ever allow an attorney get away with that. I've seen many a young attorney sternly chastised at sidebar for doing exactly that, followed by an admonition to the jury that the attorney's statement did NOT accurately describe the law.
In general your statements are inaccurate fantasy. But thanks for sharing.
Some of the posts from pontificating "know-it-alls" on CF, and in this thread in particular, are funny to read.
10-31-2013, 11:19 PM
#151
Administrator
OK, this one has played out, unfortunately, not in a court of law where the input of both sides will determine the actual verdict.
If the OP wants to PM me with the results when all is said and done, I would be willing to add that so everyone can determine whether or not their home based opinions/thoughts were correct.
Until then, this thread stands in recess
If the OP wants to PM me with the results when all is said and done, I would be willing to add that so everyone can determine whether or not their home based opinions/thoughts were correct.
Until then, this thread stands in recess
