Is this legal?
10-27-2013, 06:26 PM
#21
Team Owner
It's quite obvious you're not a lawyer. You shouldn't give legal advice unless you're a lawyer - it's illegal.
First of all, you can't sue for specific performance in this case. Specific performance is an equitable remedy that's only available when legal damages (money) are inadequate. Since the issue has to do with pricing, money damages are adequate, and thus, specific performance is not available. Additionally, you can only recover attorneys' fees if there is a contract or statute authorizing it.
Secondly, it's going to cost you at least $5K to have a decent lawyer get involved.
Third, it's doubtful that you will win for the following reasons:
1. The contract is not signed by either party, and the Statute of Frauds requires the signature of the party against whom enforcement is sought (the dealer). While it may be on his letterhead, it needs the specific persons name/initials at the minimum.
2. The contract was modified orally when the salesman told you he couldn't give you employee pricing, and nothing in the contract prohibits oral modification.
3. The fact that your dad made decisions based on this is actually an important factor (possibly creating an option/irrevocable offer), however, the timing and communication is very important. If dad didn't tell the dealership he was going to do these things, and notify them when he did, then there's no evidence the dealer knew of dad's detrimental reliance.
This is not to be construed as legal advice. If you seek legal advice, contact an attorney in your state.
First of all, you can't sue for specific performance in this case. Specific performance is an equitable remedy that's only available when legal damages (money) are inadequate. Since the issue has to do with pricing, money damages are adequate, and thus, specific performance is not available. Additionally, you can only recover attorneys' fees if there is a contract or statute authorizing it.
Secondly, it's going to cost you at least $5K to have a decent lawyer get involved.
Third, it's doubtful that you will win for the following reasons:
1. The contract is not signed by either party, and the Statute of Frauds requires the signature of the party against whom enforcement is sought (the dealer). While it may be on his letterhead, it needs the specific persons name/initials at the minimum.
2. The contract was modified orally when the salesman told you he couldn't give you employee pricing, and nothing in the contract prohibits oral modification.
3. The fact that your dad made decisions based on this is actually an important factor (possibly creating an option/irrevocable offer), however, the timing and communication is very important. If dad didn't tell the dealership he was going to do these things, and notify them when he did, then there's no evidence the dealer knew of dad's detrimental reliance.
This is not to be construed as legal advice. If you seek legal advice, contact an attorney in your state.
10-27-2013, 07:00 PM
#22
Interesting stuff so far. I told the salesman we were selling his current vet and this was his retirement gift to himself. The salesman was always friendly and said yes, yes, yes, this will be a great gift to himself. I think they knew what they were doing and it's just terrible to take advantage of someone like this. I told them to keep my car but to sell my dad his car, at the agreed upon price, but they won't do that either. It just sucks to be taken advantage of like this and I just may be done with gm now. I know it's not the company but its going to be hard to get past this. Thanks for your advice guys and gals. I think I'll definitely get the ohio attorney general involved.
10-27-2013, 07:08 PM
#23
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Thus, it was a valid unilateral modification through oral notification of a mistake, IMO.
Nothing contained herein is to be construed as giving legal advice. If you seek legal advice, consult an attorney in your state.
Last edited by B. Pateman; 10-27-2013 at 08:41 PM.
10-27-2013, 07:24 PM
#24
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Interesting stuff so far. I told the salesman we were selling his current vet and this was his retirement gift to himself. The salesman was always friendly and said yes, yes, yes, this will be a great gift to himself. I think they knew what they were doing and it's just terrible to take advantage of someone like this. I told them to keep my car but to sell my dad his car, at the agreed upon price, but they won't do that either. It just sucks to be taken advantage of like this and I just may be done with gm now. I know it's not the company but its going to be hard to get past this. Thanks for your advice guys and gals. I think I'll definitely get the ohio attorney general involved.
You might want to try just negotiating with the dealer on some other, non-legal basis. Nobody wants to hear "you're legally required to do this" and it tends to make people act very defensive. Or you could just wait a few months when the 2015s come out and by then it will be easy to negotiate a C7 at/near invoice.
10-27-2013, 07:29 PM
#25
Le Mans Master
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^ That doesn't mean it's illegal to speak to people about the law or to provide information to others or advice about what you think they should do. The unauthorized practice of law involves providing information about what actions to take or giving advice to someone that is specifically tailored to an individual’s unique situation, under the guise of being an lawyer or person experienced in the law. Nowhere does Member MikeK state either that he is a lawyer or that he is experienced in the law.
10-27-2013, 07:30 PM
#26
B. Pateman, this is not worth getting into a pi$$ing match with you on. My background and legal experience is not relevant and I have been retired for many years. I clearly suggested the OP seek legal guidance in his State.
This deal involves two (2) vehicles, not one. The OP stated that he put down two deposits, however, response from the dealership clearly indicates a selling price, even adding in a Doc Fee, Taxes, etc. and notes the receipt of a CC deposit. The court will decide if a "contract" exists. I was trying to help a fellow CF member buy his cars. The paper work manner that each dealer handles his internet deals varies. The two individuals noted on the OP's post are shown as working for Columbiana Chevrolet in Columbiana, OH, a burb of Pittsburgh. The pricing shown for the one vehicle is approximately $5K under MSRP...a good deal today but still well under what the dealership will actually pay GM for it, thus certainly not losing any money on it.
Part of the documentation that the OP shows has been redacted and may or may not show an initial. I don't think that it matters in this instance. I also mentioned any additional emails or other verbal correspondence needs to be made available to an attorney if any exists. To me, it would appear that management of the dealership now figures that they really want MSRP as the street has been supporting and is telling him they want more $$$. The GSM/GSU discussion would seem irrelevant since a specific "selling price" is given.
Again, I'd like to see the OP get his two Vettes and not just his deposits back!
This deal involves two (2) vehicles, not one. The OP stated that he put down two deposits, however, response from the dealership clearly indicates a selling price, even adding in a Doc Fee, Taxes, etc. and notes the receipt of a CC deposit. The court will decide if a "contract" exists. I was trying to help a fellow CF member buy his cars. The paper work manner that each dealer handles his internet deals varies. The two individuals noted on the OP's post are shown as working for Columbiana Chevrolet in Columbiana, OH, a burb of Pittsburgh. The pricing shown for the one vehicle is approximately $5K under MSRP...a good deal today but still well under what the dealership will actually pay GM for it, thus certainly not losing any money on it.
Part of the documentation that the OP shows has been redacted and may or may not show an initial. I don't think that it matters in this instance. I also mentioned any additional emails or other verbal correspondence needs to be made available to an attorney if any exists. To me, it would appear that management of the dealership now figures that they really want MSRP as the street has been supporting and is telling him they want more $$$. The GSM/GSU discussion would seem irrelevant since a specific "selling price" is given.
Again, I'd like to see the OP get his two Vettes and not just his deposits back!
10-27-2013, 07:49 PM
#27
Le Mans Master
This dealer was playing games right from the beginning. The Supplier Discount has never been shown on the GM Employee/Supplier Discount site. In fact, it has specifically stated the 2014 Corvette is not eligible.
You are owed your money back, and I would never do business with them again. Consider it a blessing. Who knows what else they would rip you off on.
Michael
You are owed your money back, and I would never do business with them again. Consider it a blessing. Who knows what else they would rip you off on.
Michael
10-27-2013, 07:55 PM
#28
It does seam like the document they sent me, with a credit card receipt, is a legal agreement.
You are owed your money back, and I would never do business with them again. Consider it a blessing. Who knows what else they would rip you off on.
Michael[/QUOTE]
You are owed your money back, and I would never do business with them again. Consider it a blessing. Who knows what else they would rip you off on.
Michael[/QUOTE]
10-27-2013, 08:28 PM
#30
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^ That doesn't mean it's illegal to speak to people about the law or to provide information to others or advice about what you think they should do. The unauthorized practice of law involves providing information about what actions to take or giving advice to someone that is specifically tailored to an individual’s unique situation, under the guise of being an lawyer or person experienced in the law. Nowhere does Member MikeK state either that he is a lawyer or that he is experienced in the law.
Last edited by B. Pateman; 10-27-2013 at 08:40 PM.
10-27-2013, 08:39 PM
#31
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B. Pateman, this is not worth getting into a pi$$ing match with you on. My background and legal experience is not relevant and I have been retired for many years. I clearly suggested the OP seek legal guidance in his State.
This deal involves two (2) vehicles, not one. The OP stated that he put down two deposits, however, response from the dealership clearly indicates a selling price, even adding in a Doc Fee, Taxes, etc. and notes the receipt of a CC deposit. The court will decide if a "contract" exists. I was trying to help a fellow CF member buy his cars. The paper work manner that each dealer handles his internet deals varies. The two individuals noted on the OP's post are shown as working for Columbiana Chevrolet in Columbiana, OH, a burb of Pittsburgh. The pricing shown for the one vehicle is approximately $5K under MSRP...a good deal today but still well under what the dealership will actually pay GM for it, thus certainly not losing any money on it.
Part of the documentation that the OP shows has been redacted and may or may not show an initial. I don't think that it matters in this instance. I also mentioned any additional emails or other verbal correspondence needs to be made available to an attorney if any exists. To me, it would appear that management of the dealership now figures that they really want MSRP as the street has been supporting and is telling him they want more $$$. The GSM/GSU discussion would seem irrelevant since a specific "selling price" is given.
Again, I'd like to see the OP get his two Vettes and not just his deposits back!
This deal involves two (2) vehicles, not one. The OP stated that he put down two deposits, however, response from the dealership clearly indicates a selling price, even adding in a Doc Fee, Taxes, etc. and notes the receipt of a CC deposit. The court will decide if a "contract" exists. I was trying to help a fellow CF member buy his cars. The paper work manner that each dealer handles his internet deals varies. The two individuals noted on the OP's post are shown as working for Columbiana Chevrolet in Columbiana, OH, a burb of Pittsburgh. The pricing shown for the one vehicle is approximately $5K under MSRP...a good deal today but still well under what the dealership will actually pay GM for it, thus certainly not losing any money on it.
Part of the documentation that the OP shows has been redacted and may or may not show an initial. I don't think that it matters in this instance. I also mentioned any additional emails or other verbal correspondence needs to be made available to an attorney if any exists. To me, it would appear that management of the dealership now figures that they really want MSRP as the street has been supporting and is telling him they want more $$$. The GSM/GSU discussion would seem irrelevant since a specific "selling price" is given.
Again, I'd like to see the OP get his two Vettes and not just his deposits back!
Your legal experience is relevant since your making legal conclusions as to the validity of the contract and relevance of facts. Since you admit to having little knowledge in this field, your opinion is irrelevant.
I wasn't trying to get into a "pi$$ing match" with you, I'm trying to share my opinion of the current state of the law - sorry if you're offended by someone with more knowledge and experience correcting you.
10-27-2013, 08:55 PM
#32
Race Director
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Cal up the general sales manager and tell him you want your money back - 99 % chance he'll give it to you...or file a grievance with your CC company. He can resell the car...and all this talk about lawyers...hire a guy for 2 grand to get back a grand? No thanks..just be firm and get to the management of the store..and the above is right; GM does not have any power to "force" the dealer to do anything...
Unless it's been specifically stated and agreed to that a deposit is not refundable, they have to give the deposits back. I don't think you need a lawyer - just be a little forceful (but polite) with the sales manager, and I'd wager you'll get your money back.
10-27-2013, 09:35 PM
#33
Safety Car
Pay a couple of unemployed people to picket for you outside the dealership.If they lose 3 or 4 sales that will equal the amount that they are making off your car.
10-27-2013, 09:48 PM
#34
Burning Brakes
Im not able to comment on whats legal. I have a fantastic dealer. They told me they would give me GMS if it was available and if not it would be invoice. GMS is not available right now. I got my car vin 4195 last week at Invoice. Great dealership. I had a couple trade ins and bought and traded a really nice Harley from the same owner (at their Harley Dealership) so they still made money on my trades and also from the Invoice cost. Id rather have GMS as it would have been even cheaper - but I was not complaining.
10-27-2013, 10:57 PM
#35
Melting Slicks
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I'd say the pooch got screwed and you can:
Think about what is the most you are willing to give up, what is your bottom line in this matter.
Calm and civily talk to the sales person and sales manager about the change and what you expect.
Play on their good nature to do the right thing. Explain the vehicles you sold to pay for the cars.
Calmly suggest that you are a member of a one of the largest Vette forums and would like to keep this as low keyed as possible.
If there isn't a win-win then ask for the deposit back and look for another dealer.
Let us know the outcome, if it is not fair, ask the forum members to reach out to the dealer and explain that we are very concerned about their sales practices....
good luck. keep us posted.
Think about what is the most you are willing to give up, what is your bottom line in this matter.
Calm and civily talk to the sales person and sales manager about the change and what you expect.
Play on their good nature to do the right thing. Explain the vehicles you sold to pay for the cars.
Calmly suggest that you are a member of a one of the largest Vette forums and would like to keep this as low keyed as possible.
If there isn't a win-win then ask for the deposit back and look for another dealer.
Let us know the outcome, if it is not fair, ask the forum members to reach out to the dealer and explain that we are very concerned about their sales practices....
good luck. keep us posted.
10-27-2013, 11:00 PM
#36
It's quite obvious you're not a lawyer. You shouldn't give legal advice unless you're a lawyer - it's illegal.
First of all, you can't sue for specific performance in this case. Specific performance is an equitable remedy that's only available when legal damages (money) are inadequate. Since the issue has to do with pricing, money damages are adequate, and thus, specific performance is not available. Additionally, you can only recover attorneys' fees if there is a contract or statute authorizing it.
Secondly, it's going to cost you at least $5K to have a decent lawyer get involved.
Third, it's doubtful that you will win for the following reasons:
1. The contract is not signed by either party, and the Statute of Frauds requires the signature of the party against whom enforcement is sought (the dealer). While it may be on his letterhead, it needs the specific persons name/initials at the minimum.
2. The contract was modified orally when the salesman told you he couldn't give you employee pricing, and nothing in the contract prohibits oral modification.
3. The fact that your dad made decisions based on this is actually an important factor (possibly creating an option/irrevocable offer), however, the timing and communication is very important. If dad didn't tell the dealership he was going to do these things, and notify them when he did, then there's no evidence the dealer knew of dad's detrimental reliance.
This is not to be construed as legal advice. If you seek legal advice, contact an attorney in your state.
First of all, you can't sue for specific performance in this case. Specific performance is an equitable remedy that's only available when legal damages (money) are inadequate. Since the issue has to do with pricing, money damages are adequate, and thus, specific performance is not available. Additionally, you can only recover attorneys' fees if there is a contract or statute authorizing it.
Secondly, it's going to cost you at least $5K to have a decent lawyer get involved.
Third, it's doubtful that you will win for the following reasons:
1. The contract is not signed by either party, and the Statute of Frauds requires the signature of the party against whom enforcement is sought (the dealer). While it may be on his letterhead, it needs the specific persons name/initials at the minimum.
2. The contract was modified orally when the salesman told you he couldn't give you employee pricing, and nothing in the contract prohibits oral modification.
3. The fact that your dad made decisions based on this is actually an important factor (possibly creating an option/irrevocable offer), however, the timing and communication is very important. If dad didn't tell the dealership he was going to do these things, and notify them when he did, then there's no evidence the dealer knew of dad's detrimental reliance.
This is not to be construed as legal advice. If you seek legal advice, contact an attorney in your state.
10-28-2013, 12:28 AM
#37
Wow! How much hassle does someone want?
Call lawyers. Call the Calvary. But for the money involved, this could really be a losing battle.
Try to work put an equitable solution with the dealer. Leave out the emotion, lead with the brain and maturity. If it doesn't work, tell the dealer to stick the cars where the sun doesn't shine and find another dealer. I guarantee you, there are many reputable dealers that would LOVE to sell you two new, high margin cars!
Call lawyers. Call the Calvary. But for the money involved, this could really be a losing battle.
Try to work put an equitable solution with the dealer. Leave out the emotion, lead with the brain and maturity. If it doesn't work, tell the dealer to stick the cars where the sun doesn't shine and find another dealer. I guarantee you, there are many reputable dealers that would LOVE to sell you two new, high margin cars!
10-28-2013, 01:24 AM
#38
Instructor
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Unless the employee discount is a very large sum, I wouldn't think involving a lawyer makes sense because of the cost. I would assume you would want an experienced attorney and they are not the cheapest things, lol.
10-28-2013, 03:47 AM
#40
Racer
Its so funny to me that in every crowd there is that -one- guy like B Pateman.
OP....I'm sure they will give you the deposit back, that isn't the issue here. I'm with you, it is clear that they were offering you this car at this price. They are very specific and detailed in the pricing, and I see nowhere does it say, "Valid upon confirmation of Supplier Pricing being available". They asked for a deposit amount, which you gave them. How is this different from them running an advertisment in the newspaper saying they are selling a specific car for a specific price? In the newspaper ad, it specifically states, "not valid in case of misprint or other error". I do not see that here.
But, as I've found in life, being right does not mean squat. The law does not always do what is clearly the right thing. They do this for a living and have forever to fight it out with you.
My advise? Find a local attorney and pay him for a one hour consultation. I've done this before. In that one hour, he can tell you what the law has to say. It will be well worth the $150 or so. If he says you are SOL, I would go talk to the dealership in person and explain everything from your point of view. They may be interested in trying to offer you -something-. Maybe they will meet your dad half way between supplier and MSRP. Maybe they will give your dad a GMPP extended warranty for free but sell the car to him at sticker. Who knows. But, this is what "I" would try to do. Lets face it, the little guy gets screwed to the wall every single time.
This post does not replace proper legal advice. I am not a lawyer. I have no legal training. No funds were exchanged between the OP (henceforth known as Original Poster aka Wolfmayhem) and me (JeffInDFW). No claims may be made against me (JeffInDFW) for reading this post regarding eye strain, internet bandwidth usage, electrical costs or normal wear and tear upon the device which is used to display this post. Any marital strain caused by reading this post rather than spending time with said wife (whether standard, common law, or GLBT) can not be used as an instrument for filing a legal case against me (JeffInDFW).
I guess we have to include that last paragraph on each post from now on to keep Pateman happy.
OP....I'm sure they will give you the deposit back, that isn't the issue here. I'm with you, it is clear that they were offering you this car at this price. They are very specific and detailed in the pricing, and I see nowhere does it say, "Valid upon confirmation of Supplier Pricing being available". They asked for a deposit amount, which you gave them. How is this different from them running an advertisment in the newspaper saying they are selling a specific car for a specific price? In the newspaper ad, it specifically states, "not valid in case of misprint or other error". I do not see that here.
But, as I've found in life, being right does not mean squat. The law does not always do what is clearly the right thing. They do this for a living and have forever to fight it out with you.
My advise? Find a local attorney and pay him for a one hour consultation. I've done this before. In that one hour, he can tell you what the law has to say. It will be well worth the $150 or so. If he says you are SOL, I would go talk to the dealership in person and explain everything from your point of view. They may be interested in trying to offer you -something-. Maybe they will meet your dad half way between supplier and MSRP. Maybe they will give your dad a GMPP extended warranty for free but sell the car to him at sticker. Who knows. But, this is what "I" would try to do. Lets face it, the little guy gets screwed to the wall every single time.
This post does not replace proper legal advice. I am not a lawyer. I have no legal training. No funds were exchanged between the OP (henceforth known as Original Poster aka Wolfmayhem) and me (JeffInDFW). No claims may be made against me (JeffInDFW) for reading this post regarding eye strain, internet bandwidth usage, electrical costs or normal wear and tear upon the device which is used to display this post. Any marital strain caused by reading this post rather than spending time with said wife (whether standard, common law, or GLBT) can not be used as an instrument for filing a legal case against me (JeffInDFW).
I guess we have to include that last paragraph on each post from now on to keep Pateman happy.
Last edited by JeffInDFW; 10-28-2013 at 03:50 AM.