Don't let them add Stop/Start to future Corvettes!
#21
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
I like the idea of optional start-stop. I'd have made use of it this morning when the interstate was averaging 3mph. Actually, I did while coasting down a hill, then bump-started at the bottom. Have it only enabled in eco mode and disabled the rest of the time. I don't know how other makes do it, but the Malibu had it and used a combined alternator/ starter to do the job. Seems like that would be lighter than having two separate pieces.
#22
It'll be a shame if they have to put this on the Corvette. But I'm certain its not their idea. The escalating CAFE requirements get very strict very soon.
We may all be living and enjoying the last few years of great performance (at least all-engine, non-hybrid performance). We'll look back on this time down the road and realize just how good we have it now.
Let's enjoy our non-hybrid V8 Corvettes. May not be long until they're gone.
I'd rather see the Government do something like force the auto manufacturers to donate money into R&D programs focused on alternative fuels/power sources (since they are going to force them to do something). Although the various manufacturers have very talented engineers, the task to design the cars of tomorrow while maintaining and improving current models seems to result in evolutionary designs. Giving money to top tier Technical Colleges (MIT, etc) and similar organizations seems like the best place to really get a breakthrough. Otherwise at this rate we are going to end up with very small and underpowered vehicles. It may even make the '80's seem great.
#23
Team Owner
It's funny how most of you are always so resistant to change for the better, first it was CHMSL's, then ABS, SRS, DTRL, etc.....Start/stop has been around for years in Europe and guess what, the world hasn't come to an end, as long as it's not too perceptible then WTF cares if it's there or not. Some people seriously have to learn to relax and just live their lives, if you don't want it in your car, don't buy a car that has it, simple.
#24
This study shows that in carefully controlled dynamometer conditions and with controlled on-road routes, there is a benefit to stop-start:
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehicles...r_vehicles.pdf
When conditions are less controlled (heavy use of A/C, drivers in fleet who may not know how to best maximize stop-start, etc), there can be no major improvement.
From the OP's link:
"'Customers will have to put up with changes from what they traditionally expected in order to get better fuel economy,' Juechter says."
I think we saw an inkling of that on these very forums when gas prices spiked (threads on hypermiling and the like). Juechter is just informally acknowledging that traditional habits on the part of customers and sports car makers will have to change if you want these cars to continue to exist. Customers with stop-start should adjust their driving to suit the technology; eg, if you hate the 1 second or whatever it takes for the engine to fire up, you might try looking 2 cars ahead instead of just waiting for the car in front to move, before you release the brake. The C7's predictive sensing in its manual transmission (used for Rev Matching) could be tuned for this too. Customers could program the paddle shifters to turn off stop-start in Eco mode if they sense a particularly tricky roundabout or intersection coming up.
#25
It's funny how most of you are always so resistant to change for the better, first it was CHMSL's, then ABS, SRS, DTRL, etc.....Start/stop has been around for years in Europe and guess what, the world hasn't come to an end, as long as it's not too perceptible then WTF cares if it's there or not. Some people seriously have to learn to relax and just live their lives, if you don't want it in your car, don't buy a car that has it, simple.
We need a change in direction of government. It is a shame Obama was re-elected.
#26
I've driven my share of rental cars with Stop/Start and have a Camry Hybrid with it. I never even notice it in normal traffic. I'm sure if you have a manual you'd just be a little into the gas anyway.
#28
Le Mans Master
Maybe not a bad idea. At the very least have it degrade to 4-cylinder mode or even a V-twin.
This study shows that in carefully controlled dynamometer conditions and with controlled on-road routes, there is a benefit to stop-start:
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehicles...r_vehicles.pdf
When conditions are less controlled (heavy use of A/C, drivers in fleet who may not know how to best maximize stop-start, etc), there can be no major improvement.
From the OP's link:
"'Customers will have to put up with changes from what they traditionally expected in order to get better fuel economy,' Juechter says."
I think we saw an inkling of that on these very forums when gas prices spiked (threads on hypermiling and the like). Juechter is just informally acknowledging that traditional habits on the part of customers and sports car makers will have to change if you want these cars to continue to exist. Customers with stop-start should adjust their driving to suit the technology; eg, if you hate the 1 second or whatever it takes for the engine to fire up, you might try looking 2 cars ahead instead of just waiting for the car in front to move, before you release the brake. The C7's predictive sensing in its manual transmission (used for Rev Matching) could be tuned for this too. Customers could program the paddle shifters to turn off stop-start in Eco mode if they sense a particularly tricky roundabout or intersection coming up.
This study shows that in carefully controlled dynamometer conditions and with controlled on-road routes, there is a benefit to stop-start:
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehicles...r_vehicles.pdf
When conditions are less controlled (heavy use of A/C, drivers in fleet who may not know how to best maximize stop-start, etc), there can be no major improvement.
From the OP's link:
"'Customers will have to put up with changes from what they traditionally expected in order to get better fuel economy,' Juechter says."
I think we saw an inkling of that on these very forums when gas prices spiked (threads on hypermiling and the like). Juechter is just informally acknowledging that traditional habits on the part of customers and sports car makers will have to change if you want these cars to continue to exist. Customers with stop-start should adjust their driving to suit the technology; eg, if you hate the 1 second or whatever it takes for the engine to fire up, you might try looking 2 cars ahead instead of just waiting for the car in front to move, before you release the brake. The C7's predictive sensing in its manual transmission (used for Rev Matching) could be tuned for this too. Customers could program the paddle shifters to turn off stop-start in Eco mode if they sense a particularly tricky roundabout or intersection coming up.
#30
CAFE standards have been increasing long before Obama. CAFE itself was established into existence under a Republican president.
#31
Melting Slicks
It'll be a shame if they have to put this on the Corvette. But I'm certain its not their idea. The escalating CAFE requirements get very strict very soon.
We may all be living and enjoying the last few years of great performance (at least all-engine, non-hybrid performance). We'll look back on this time down the road and realize just how good we have it now.
Let's enjoy our non-hybrid V8 Corvettes. May not be long until they're gone.
#32
Cars with stop-start already have upgraded starters compared to conventional cars. As mentioned, there could be starterless technologies in the works.
You'd have to weigh that against the possibly millions of gallons of fuel saved every year. Not to mention the spewing of burnt fuel whenever you're sitting at a long stoplight or railroad crossing or lining up for gas at Costco. You have 20-50 cars around you just sitting there, idling, going nowhere. Multiply that by 50-100 other similar situations in your city, then multiply that again by however many cities there are in this country. Then do the same for however many countries there are in the world. At what point do you think "This is a little bit crazy"?
#33
I doubt it. Tesla has a sedan that officially goes 0-60 4.2 seconds. Some test have it quicker. The "idea" for start stop is good. Why waste gas just sitting there? Perhaps the implementation needs work. Not sure why everyone is not in favor of getting off the dependence on foreign oil/power.
#34
Burning Brakes
The most annoying part of a (please don't scorch me!) Porsche Panamera... It *does* restart the engine very quickly - from the time you remove your right foot from the brake peddle until you put it onto the accelerator, the engine will have restarted - assuming you're not trying to do the move as fast as humanly possible. Yet it is still annoying because it can be felt more than heard - a little shudder. It can be turned off though by putting the car into SPORT mode - a trick the salesman had me do in an initial test drive to - to hide the feature evidently.
#35
Le Mans Master
He did say "at least all-engine, non-hybrid performance," but agreed on that point. BMW's i8 looks to be a new way of looking at performance too, which should go down in price in later models. I think the dependence on foreign oil is important too, with national security and geopolitical ramifications.
#36
Le Mans Master
I doubt it. Tesla has a sedan that officially goes 0-60 4.2 seconds. Some test have it quicker. The "idea" for start stop is good. Why waste gas just sitting there? Perhaps the implementation needs work. Not sure why everyone is not in favor of getting off the dependence on foreign oil/power.
#37
Perhaps we do, but for how long? And not all of it that is produced here stays here; a lot of it is exported.
Tesla S is not much more expensive than a Z51 C7 with some options, $62k with tax credits. Most people cannot afford a Corvette either, which starts at close to the median yearly salary.
Tesla S is not much more expensive than a Z51 C7 with some options, $62k with tax credits. Most people cannot afford a Corvette either, which starts at close to the median yearly salary.
#38
Race Director
Come on people. You do not want that feature. Like said above its truly annoying and
hard to see any benefits. More than likely will be a safety hazard in the future when
they fail to fire and get rear ended.
I passed on a BMW X3 to get the old tech in a 13 X5. It just felt weird driving
that SUV, have it shut off and than fire back up. Might as well drive a golf cart
hard to see any benefits. More than likely will be a safety hazard in the future when
they fail to fire and get rear ended.
I passed on a BMW X3 to get the old tech in a 13 X5. It just felt weird driving
that SUV, have it shut off and than fire back up. Might as well drive a golf cart
#39
Cars with stop-start already have upgraded starters compared to conventional cars. As mentioned, there could be starterless technologies in the works.
You'd have to weigh that against the possibly millions of gallons of fuel saved every year. Not to mention the spewing of burnt fuel whenever you're sitting at a long stoplight or railroad crossing or lining up for gas at Costco. You have 20-50 cars around you just sitting there, idling, going nowhere. Multiply that by 50-100 other similar situations in your city, then multiply that again by however many cities there are in this country. Then do the same for however many countries there are in the world. At what point do you think "This is a little bit crazy"?
You'd have to weigh that against the possibly millions of gallons of fuel saved every year. Not to mention the spewing of burnt fuel whenever you're sitting at a long stoplight or railroad crossing or lining up for gas at Costco. You have 20-50 cars around you just sitting there, idling, going nowhere. Multiply that by 50-100 other similar situations in your city, then multiply that again by however many cities there are in this country. Then do the same for however many countries there are in the world. At what point do you think "This is a little bit crazy"?
#40
Start/stop still has a way to go IMO. I know it is used extensively in Euro cars, and in order to improve EPA numbers it defaults to "on" (GM had to average the highway mileage on the Vette because AFM isn't on by default). In every review I've read of a Euro car with start/stop, the writers complain about how bad it is. BMW in particular seems to have problems with it not restarting properly.
IMO, if you have a 15-20 HP electric motor tightly integrated into the drivetrain, and maybe a supercapacitor to power it, I could see it being reasonable in that the large "starter" motor could get you moving as the engine comes on-line.
I'd rather have the Vette go into a V4 or even V2 mode while idling, at least to keep the feel and sounds more consistent, and to prevent the startup issues that seem to plague these systems.
I wonder why V4 is currently not used when idling? Too much vibration perhaps? Audi uses active engine mounts to counter some of that. Maybe GM could do something similar, although with the torque tube it may not be so simple. Anyhow, still a bit of development required on these systems IMO.
-T
IMO, if you have a 15-20 HP electric motor tightly integrated into the drivetrain, and maybe a supercapacitor to power it, I could see it being reasonable in that the large "starter" motor could get you moving as the engine comes on-line.
I'd rather have the Vette go into a V4 or even V2 mode while idling, at least to keep the feel and sounds more consistent, and to prevent the startup issues that seem to plague these systems.
I wonder why V4 is currently not used when idling? Too much vibration perhaps? Audi uses active engine mounts to counter some of that. Maybe GM could do something similar, although with the torque tube it may not be so simple. Anyhow, still a bit of development required on these systems IMO.
-T