Achmed

Which still won't propel it faster than than a Stingray with the A6

sam90lx

Unfortunately the C7 Baby Jesus nut huggers have warranted the use of "IMO"

Lavender

Or a manual for that matter...

Notch

Like the primary purpose of the Vette is to cruise around a 160-180 mph??

Have you driven the Cayman? The honest answer to what you're missing is that the Cayman is a phenomenal driving experience. The mid-engine has a large impact on the experience, but the chassis balance, steering feel, turn-in, control balance, and sight lines from the driver's seat combine with the mid-engine to create a great driving experience. There's been no match for these things in pre-C7 Vettes. We'll have to see if the C7 has made significant strides in closing the gap.

Guibo

But that's the angle you seem to have been pushing with regard to the F-Type. Ie, it's ludicrously ovepriced by the tune of $41k, but it's not better in tangibly measurably ways (as if you tangibly measure your car's performance on any regular basis). You mention fun, so let's look at that: Is the point of buying a sports car to be able to beat everybody else on the street?

You did ask what a Corvette buyer compromises when not buying a 911, as if there were no compromises (ie, they're pretty much the same). And when discussing Porsches, you did say the world is messed up because many people are willing to pay "100% premiums to get a comparable (or inferior) product for the exclusivity and the prestigious badge it carries."
Sounds like you're saying the Corvette was equal (or superior) to the Porsche.

Wait. Whose opinion did I dismiss based on their political beliefs or affluence? I know damn well that parts of our society are already socialized and nowhere have I dismissed any of that. I wanted to be sure about what kind of economic theory certain people subscribe to, and I respectfully gave them the benefit of the doubt.
If saying that people are crazy or stupid to pay for leather-covered air vents isn't being dismissive of their affluence, I'm not sure what is.

2+2 = 4 is a mathematical formula. It can be scientifically observed to be true. You've already admitted you've employed no calculus to arrive at your conclusion, so how can you claim it's more than just a "subjective feeling"?
From an engineering standpoint, if you think GM can make a rear-engined car capable of carrying 3 kids to school as fast as the 911, as full of feedback as the 911, as robust in its structure as the 911, and still only charge $50k as a starting point, I'm going to have to ask how you've arrived at that conclusion.
With regard to the F-Type, it doesn't necessarily have to be about engineering only. The most important decision in whether a car even gets made in the first place has little to do with how fast it has to be.

I never said necessarily. I said it was a "safe assumption" (and meant to say that they don't make that kind of money). Now that you've agreed on the unlikeliness of it, we can move on.

But as you've already conceded, Porsche earned its status. It didn't just offer up a Corvette clone and charge a 100% premium. Why don't these image-conscious people just buy an F430 which comes from a brand with even higher status?

Reposted for an answer.

Having light steering, accurate steering is not the same as having overboosted, non-linear steering that is devoid of feel. That you admit they are starting to get some criticism suggests they have been objective in their findings after all, no?
I know you meant that for Trackaholic and I'm replying to a post where you quoted him, but I'm not him. Just for those who have been confused in the past.

Guibo

For less than the price of a new Boxster or Corvette, the same person can buy a used Ferrari so they can tell others "yeah but I drive a Ferrari."

Just another kind of insecurity: Fear of being beaten in a "race" on the street. You must feel really nervous when a Viper or GSX-R pulls up at the light, huh?

All2Easy

Whether it's faster than a C7 or not, we love ours.....


http://forums.corvetteforum.com/off-...-new-ride.html

C7pimp

Ain't nobody buying a used Ferrari for less than a C7 that's worth bragging about.

RocketGuy3

Your sarcasm is misplaced. You know what I mean, and you know it's valid. Even if it's not expected that most buyers will be driving on a track all the time, these cars are designed and built to go fast. Not to carry your family as comfortably and safely as possible from point A to point B. If one of them does what they're both designed to do better for less money and without making any serious sacrifices, it would seem to me that it has a pretty significant advantage over the other.


I mostly agree with you here, to be honest. The mid-engine setup is a nice distinguishing factor on the Cayman. Still, it's debatable whether that platform is really that much better. It's different, for sure, and there are advantages. But the C7 still has excellent weight balance, and the difference in feel really comes down to a matter of preference. In terms of performance, the C7 still has the edge in almost every category, regardless of its FR setup. Plus, from an engineering standpoint, that still doesn't justify the price difference. If Chevy wanted to, they could have made the Corvette a mid-engined car without adding much to the cost. (And I kind of wish they had)

On that note, I don't understand why there are not more reasonably priced mid-engined sports cars on the market. The Cayman and Boxter are pretty much your only options under six figures, and there's only two trims of both. I suspect it's because of the lack of demand. The MR2 couldn't survive, and nothing else took its place. Us Americans seem to often have pretty crappy tastes in cars.

But yeah, back to your point -- that is why I'm mostly focusing my criticism on the 911. I think the Cayman S is at least more reasonably priced, and I also think it's just a better sports car than the 911. It will be on the short list of cars that I will be giving it a thorough test drive when I'm on the market in a year or so. Right now, though, it has an uphill battle in terms of winning my favor.


No offense, and I'm sorry to keep disregarding so many parts of your post, but I'm growing tired of this debate. I've spent too much time with it that should have been spent on other things. Things that could hopefully help me make enough money to have a more valid opinion on the 911.

Let me just say that I was never taking a performance-is-the-only-thing-that-matters "angle". I was focusing on performance, I suppose. Mostly because all the cars we are discussing in this thread are performance cars.

Guibo

The badge is what he was focusing on.

They are also classified and marketed by their manufacturers (yes, GM too) as luxury performance cars. Fine, you can answer the $20k question or PM it to me at your leisure.

The question stands to Achmed, drmustang, etc: Is it dumb, foolish, or status-seeking to spend $20k more on a car that is not faster than another which is otherwise the same in almost every meaningful way?

Notch

Then what do you mean by "fast"? Do you mean low stopwatch times in acceleration measurements?

On public roads?

The 911 and the Cayman/Boxster are not primarily designed to carry your family. The fact that the 911 is versatile in being able to carry people in the back seats is just a bonus utility.

It's that much better in many people's minds.

It's not better for those who really like the handling characteristics of the 911. In a best handling (or best driver's car, I can't remember which it was) test by a major auto magazine a few years ago, the GT3 won overall, beating the second place Cayman. The grip produced on-throttle (because of the rear weight bias) and the lighter and more precise steering of the GT3, makes it a phenomenal sports car; "better" in the magazines opinion than the Cayman.

LOTS of people buy sports cars because of how the cars drive when not max performing them. You can't spend 100% of your time in the car at WOT or at max cornering g, so how the car drives for the huge percentage of the time you're not doing these things is the real litmus test in their opinion. I believe most people don't pick a sports car because of their fear of other sports cars that might pull up next to them at a stop light, or for the numbers some magazine got on a test track (although it seems there are some here on this forum who worry about that to the exclusion it seems of other considerations except price).

Achmed

Yes that too!

What I meant is JoeC5 implied that the Cayman's PDK is an advantage over the Stingray's equivalent A6, but what advantage is having a PDK is its still the slower car lol

RocketGuy3

I have a little dead time right now, so:

I don't know why you think moving the engine from the front to the back would cost much extra money. Nor would adding a tiny back seat (look at the BR-Z).


I don't doubt many of them would if they could.


It depends what those non-performance-related improvements were. I mean the C7 I would buy has probably ~$15K worth of options added on. So if all those came in by default with the base version along with maybe some other improvements, yeah, I suppose there are ways to make a car worth $20K more without changing the performance... Although I guess about $5-6K of that $15K are at least somewhat performance-related (NPP, MSRC, Z51).

Achmed

Honestly, no I've never driven a Porsche of any kind. Despite that I can afford one, I have no interest in even entertaining the idea of paying extra for status rather than something tangible and measurable, so I see no point in test driving a Cayman.

Notch

That's actually very funny.

Achmed

Not exactly sure what you're asking - but it reads as though you're asking if two cars are exactly the same to a buyer but one costs $20k more - is it dumb to buy the more expensive one? Yes of course it is.

RocketGuy3

Jesus, what is with you Porsche defenders and your divide-and-conquer strategy with posts??? It makes them very tiresome to reply to thoroughly, heh.

Anyways, this goes back to what I was saying before about Porsche reviews (and car mag reviews in general).

"Driver feel" is a subjective advantage at best, and one that in my experience is not nearly significant enough to justify the extra cost (including higher maintenance costs), especially given the performance disadvantages. Plus, there are those people who prefer the thrill of having to tame a beast that struggles to keep the power down coming out of a turn. There are certain people who consider overly grippy Porsches "almost boring":


If someone else really likes the way the 911 feels behind the wheel so much more than the Corvette (or another competitor) that they really feel it justifies the price, that is fine. I'm not gonna hate. But I still don't believe that that is the reason a good chunk of 911 buyers choose the car. And for other people, I think their ability to easily afford it expands the perceived value. Also, I don't believe that justifies the cost difference. Not necessarily in terms of value, but in terms of cost. And Porsche's margins prove that. If anything it is MORE expensive and requires more technology to isolate the driver from the road... But in bringing that up, I guess I am veering dangerously close to another debate about capitalism.

EDIT: I also don't think you are going to be able to safely experience whatever thrills there may be with the Porsche's handling/feedback advantages during the vast majority of your street driving. I certainly couldn't, which may be part of why I think the cars are criminally overrated and overpriced. And when you're on the track, I think the main thrill comes from just going fast. Probably why I was able to enjoy the hell out of tracking even my Lexus IS350 with an automatic transmission and a steering system that was almost unanimously considered numb and overly light by everyone. And that's probably why racing is fun even in a completely feedback-free environment: videogames... but I digress.

Achmed

LOL next you will get the "do you have a study to prove that" question from Guibo

jschindler

Once again you are defining your definition of how good a car is by objective performance figures. Quarter mile times, lap times etc. In the real world a lot of folks look beyond numbers. If you are only interested in which is fastest that is fine. But you don't seem to want to acknowledge the fact that some folks really and truly do appreciate aspects of how a car goes about it's business in subjective ways.

You think if a car doesn't put up better numbers then people only buy it for status. While some folks do buy for status, you are lumping everyone into that category.

Achmed

That's not what I said at all. I know some Porsche buyers pick their car becasue the like they way it looks, or feels, etc (I do consider these tangible qualities, even though they are subjective). What I'm saying is I would bet that the majority of Porsche buyers are largely motivated by wanting a status symbol over the other tangible measures, reason being that the difference in price seems too high to justify even if one believes the subjective qualities are better.