How is GM going to reduce the curb weight of the future Hi-Po C7?
07-29-2013, 02:05 AM
#61
Melting Slicks
i was hoping youd say, "ok irun4cops, i bet you 100 no solid bets will be made", and as soon as we shake on it, ive already won because a bet was just made 
people kill me. All this opportunity to make money out the window.
people kill me. All this opportunity to make money out the window.
Last edited by irun4cops; 07-29-2013 at 02:07 AM.
07-29-2013, 02:16 AM
#62
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
I have yet to see an internet bet be fruitful... 
irun4cops - your idea for interior upgrades is great. GM should take notes from Ford as they offered a similar upgrade performance path for the Mustang and other SVT vehicles. GM should do the same thing for interior upgrades. Even if it did add 5K to the price, you could purchase individual components - door, dash, etc to break up the cost.
As for the wheels on the C5 - the magnesium wheels were a mixed bag. They were expensive - I remember they were 3K back when the C5 could be had for the high 30's, representing about 7-8% of the total cost of the car. These Magnesium alloy wheels were made by speedline of Italy for GM and they did have problems. We had more than one forum member have them fail - one catastrophically while driving. As I recall, they developed stress fractures along the bolt pattern.
I actually think GM has done a good job with wheel weights on the C6Z06 - the base rims from 06-08 were also made by Speedline Italy for GM and are among some of the lighter wheels for a rim of that size. Perhaps with the new tires they can get away with less wide wheels. As cool as it is to see 335 wheels, they are heavy and add a good deal of wind resistance.
irun4cops - your idea for interior upgrades is great. GM should take notes from Ford as they offered a similar upgrade performance path for the Mustang and other SVT vehicles. GM should do the same thing for interior upgrades. Even if it did add 5K to the price, you could purchase individual components - door, dash, etc to break up the cost.
As for the wheels on the C5 - the magnesium wheels were a mixed bag. They were expensive - I remember they were 3K back when the C5 could be had for the high 30's, representing about 7-8% of the total cost of the car. These Magnesium alloy wheels were made by speedline of Italy for GM and they did have problems. We had more than one forum member have them fail - one catastrophically while driving. As I recall, they developed stress fractures along the bolt pattern.
I actually think GM has done a good job with wheel weights on the C6Z06 - the base rims from 06-08 were also made by Speedline Italy for GM and are among some of the lighter wheels for a rim of that size. Perhaps with the new tires they can get away with less wide wheels. As cool as it is to see 335 wheels, they are heavy and add a good deal of wind resistance.
07-29-2013, 02:33 AM
#63
Melting Slicks
I have yet to see an internet bet be fruitful...
irun4cops - your idea for interior upgrades is great. GM should take notes from Ford as they offered a similar upgrade performance path for the Mustang and other SVT vehicles. GM should do the same thing for interior upgrades. Even if it did add 5K to the price, you could purchase individual components - door, dash, etc to break up the cost.
As for the wheels on the C5 - the magnesium wheels were a mixed bag. They were expensive - I remember they were 3K back when the C5 could be had for the high 30's, representing about 7-8% of the total cost of the car. These Magnesium alloy wheels were made by speedline of Italy for GM and they did have problems. We had more than one forum member have them fail - one catastrophically while driving. As I recall, they developed stress fractures along the bolt pattern.
I actually think GM has done a good job with wheel weights on the C6Z06 - the base rims from 06-08 were also made by Speedline Italy for GM and are among some of the lighter wheels for a rim of that size. Perhaps with the new tires they can get away with less wide wheels. As cool as it is to see 335 wheels, they are heavy and add a good deal of wind resistance.
irun4cops - your idea for interior upgrades is great. GM should take notes from Ford as they offered a similar upgrade performance path for the Mustang and other SVT vehicles. GM should do the same thing for interior upgrades. Even if it did add 5K to the price, you could purchase individual components - door, dash, etc to break up the cost.
As for the wheels on the C5 - the magnesium wheels were a mixed bag. They were expensive - I remember they were 3K back when the C5 could be had for the high 30's, representing about 7-8% of the total cost of the car. These Magnesium alloy wheels were made by speedline of Italy for GM and they did have problems. We had more than one forum member have them fail - one catastrophically while driving. As I recall, they developed stress fractures along the bolt pattern.
I actually think GM has done a good job with wheel weights on the C6Z06 - the base rims from 06-08 were also made by Speedline Italy for GM and are among some of the lighter wheels for a rim of that size. Perhaps with the new tires they can get away with less wide wheels. As cool as it is to see 335 wheels, they are heavy and add a good deal of wind resistance.
Now if someone could just come up with a cracked wheel sensor...
07-29-2013, 02:46 AM
#64
Burning Brakes
Larger rims/tires? I sure as hell hope not... 19s and 20s is already too big for a Corvette or any sports car (I wish I could order the Z51 with smaller wheels), but can you imagine 21s or 22s on a Corvette? This isn't an Escalade. It's a small sports car. Those wheels serve zero purpose if they're not needed to clear the brake calipers, and now they're starting to just look a little bit silly, too, IMO.
... OK, what was supposed to be a quick point turned into a mini-rant, heh. Oops.
As for the topic question, I was kind of wondering the same thing myself.
... OK, what was supposed to be a quick point turned into a mini-rant, heh. Oops.
As for the topic question, I was kind of wondering the same thing myself.
07-29-2013, 02:51 AM
#65
Melting Slicks
its the width increase that everyone is referencing. You know, the flared fenders and the wider wheels and tires. That adds mass. There wont be any 22's on a vette.
07-29-2013, 10:07 AM
#66
Safety Car
One thing to add here... C5 Z06 wheels were not magnesium. The magnesium wheels were a $3000 option for C5s. They were a light champagne color and came in the standard 17x8.5 front and 18x9.5 rear size.
The 2001 Z06 got forged wheels made by Alcoa. They were 17x9.5 and 18x10.5. I have a few sets of 18s collected for my racecar as they're strong.
Then in 2002-2004 they switched to a spuncast wheel from Speedline. They were 1lb lighter per wheel, but supposedly not quite as strong.
The 2001 forged wheels are a little darker in color and the spokes have sharper edges when compared to the 2002-2004 cast wheels.
The 2001 Z06 got forged wheels made by Alcoa. They were 17x9.5 and 18x10.5. I have a few sets of 18s collected for my racecar as they're strong.
Then in 2002-2004 they switched to a spuncast wheel from Speedline. They were 1lb lighter per wheel, but supposedly not quite as strong.
The 2001 forged wheels are a little darker in color and the spokes have sharper edges when compared to the 2002-2004 cast wheels.
07-29-2013, 10:20 AM
#67
Team Owner
Larger rims/tires? I sure as hell hope not... 19s and 20s is already too big for a Corvette or any sports car (I wish I could order the Z51 with smaller wheels), but can you imagine 21s or 22s on a Corvette? This isn't an Escalade. It's a small sports car. Those wheels serve zero purpose if they're not needed to clear the brake calipers, and now they're starting to just look a little bit silly, too, IMO.
... OK, what was supposed to be a quick point turned into a mini-rant, heh. Oops.
As for the topic question, I was kind of wondering the same thing myself.
... OK, what was supposed to be a quick point turned into a mini-rant, heh. Oops.
As for the topic question, I was kind of wondering the same thing myself.
My neighbor's Mom has a new Buick 4-door sedan with factory installed 19" wheels(17" on base car). It's a pretty big car, and the wheels actually look good on it, and I'm not a big(diameter) wheel person.
Last edited by JoesC5; 07-29-2013 at 10:26 AM.
07-29-2013, 11:28 AM
#70
Melting Slicks
One thing to add here... C5 Z06 wheels were not magnesium. The magnesium wheels were a $3000 option for C5s. They were a light champagne color and came in the standard 17x8.5 front and 18x9.5 rear size.
The 2001 Z06 got forged wheels made by Alcoa. They were 17x9.5 and 18x10.5. I have a few sets of 18s collected for my racecar as they're strong.
Then in 2002-2004 they switched to a spuncast wheel from Speedline. They were 1lb lighter per wheel, but supposedly not quite as strong.
The 2001 forged wheels are a little darker in color and the spokes have sharper edges when compared to the 2002-2004 cast wheels.
The 2001 Z06 got forged wheels made by Alcoa. They were 17x9.5 and 18x10.5. I have a few sets of 18s collected for my racecar as they're strong.
Then in 2002-2004 they switched to a spuncast wheel from Speedline. They were 1lb lighter per wheel, but supposedly not quite as strong.
The 2001 forged wheels are a little darker in color and the spokes have sharper edges when compared to the 2002-2004 cast wheels.
07-29-2013, 12:14 PM
#71
Le Mans Master
I think you all are placing an overemphasis on the weight issue. Inevitably, its certainly true that a reduction in mass will always result in better pwr/wght, potentially better handling, etc. Thats the general way of looking at it.
The issue is, if you remove 100lbs, and its all sprung weight, from low positions, then you potentially raise the cog, which may result in a poorer handling car. Also, cost becomes a factor. Weight removal is costly, if you dont go the viper track pack route and just gut the car. I personally would buy a gutted z06, but I am not sure many others would.
Point is, its about the end result...the end performance figures. The nissan GTR is 3850+ and it has Nurburgring production records. You think the GTR guys are whining about weight when they are doing 11sec 1/4 miles and over 1g at the track...doubtful. Its about the performance numbers and how you use the weight thats there.
The issue is, if you remove 100lbs, and its all sprung weight, from low positions, then you potentially raise the cog, which may result in a poorer handling car. Also, cost becomes a factor. Weight removal is costly, if you dont go the viper track pack route and just gut the car. I personally would buy a gutted z06, but I am not sure many others would.
Point is, its about the end result...the end performance figures. The nissan GTR is 3850+ and it has Nurburgring production records. You think the GTR guys are whining about weight when they are doing 11sec 1/4 miles and over 1g at the track...doubtful. Its about the performance numbers and how you use the weight thats there.
07-29-2013, 12:47 PM
#72
Safety Car
Expect the 2015 C7Z to have fantastic performance.
Expect it to outperform every previous Corvette including the ZR1 even if it weighs more than a ZR1 and rides on smaller tires.
If as expected it's the heaviest performance Corvette ever, so be it. Perhaps that will make the lightweight C5 and C6 Z06s more collectable to those who care about weight.
.
Expect it to outperform every previous Corvette including the ZR1 even if it weighs more than a ZR1 and rides on smaller tires.
If as expected it's the heaviest performance Corvette ever, so be it. Perhaps that will make the lightweight C5 and C6 Z06s more collectable to those who care about weight.
.
Last edited by ZL-1; 07-29-2013 at 02:05 PM.
07-29-2013, 01:08 PM
#73
Safety Car
It would be cool if they made the next Z06/L88/whatever it's called to be a ZR1-type GT car, but with a trackpack "delete" option. I.e. those that want the amenities can have them, but those who want the car stripped gutted can have it too.
Makes more sense to have a content delete option vs. two separate models of cars.
Makes more sense to have a content delete option vs. two separate models of cars.
07-29-2013, 02:09 PM
#74
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
RC000E - Good points. However, I think the weight should be a metric that we demand GM keep a close eye on.... It was one of the few things the Corvette had over other sports cars. One of my favorite reviews of the C6 came from a UK reviewer who "got it" - he noted that unlike most sports cars that keep gaining weight, the corvette had managed to remain a relative lightweight for its size. With the new C7 - it appears that trend is disappearing and that is unfortunate.
Re: the GTR. If that car were RWD instead of AWD, we would not be praising the handling on the Ring.
I for one hope that GM finds a way to produce the higher output motor less expensively. I presume this is one reason why the performance build center (or some aspect of it) has moved to BG. This could free up $$$ for weight reduction.
As for trying to avoid moving the center of mass "up" - I suspect they will have a unique motor mount that places the motor lower than the std LT1. Perhaps if they used a turbo setup instead of a SC (unlikely but maybe), they could get this additional weight as close to the ground as possible?
Re: the GTR. If that car were RWD instead of AWD, we would not be praising the handling on the Ring.
I for one hope that GM finds a way to produce the higher output motor less expensively. I presume this is one reason why the performance build center (or some aspect of it) has moved to BG. This could free up $$$ for weight reduction.
As for trying to avoid moving the center of mass "up" - I suspect they will have a unique motor mount that places the motor lower than the std LT1. Perhaps if they used a turbo setup instead of a SC (unlikely but maybe), they could get this additional weight as close to the ground as possible?
07-29-2013, 10:24 PM
#75
Team Owner
Member Since: Sep 2000
Location: Far NW 'burbs of Chicago
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St. Jude Donor '13
Disagree. The z06 c5 wheels, chevy spent some serious money on those, that they lapsed on the c6.
If we were having a debate in person, i would ask if you know what c5 z06 wheels weighed, and to skip the drama, i will answer, 17 and 19 lbs, front and rears. Thats about 10 lbs lighter than any wheels they offered on c6.
Meanwhile, gm has offered mag wheels back on the c5 as well.
so i dont follow your point.
Also meanwhile, callaway is a partner with gm, and callaway cars are sold at gm dealerships... with... magnesium face wheels, and carbon drums... big and wide... weighing in at under 20 lbs all day long.
So... i dont follow you at all. Its one thing to not know... it another thing to just flat out tell someone they are wrong.
And therefore i have no issue in saying, you are wrong.
And whats so hard about a carbon torque tube or carbon body panels or carbon interior... ok, so the seat is on magnesium rails... still, there are race seats made out of carbon out there that much much lighter.
I guess rather than debate, i would be willing to put a wager on it.
Youve said how much you think the car will weigh, i say it will be at least 100 lbs less.
Anything in the middle is a tie, and thats doing you a favor, because i could simply say anything under your weight and i win... but im giving your guess an extra 100 lbs of error.
How much would you like to bet good sir?
If we were having a debate in person, i would ask if you know what c5 z06 wheels weighed, and to skip the drama, i will answer, 17 and 19 lbs, front and rears. Thats about 10 lbs lighter than any wheels they offered on c6.
Meanwhile, gm has offered mag wheels back on the c5 as well.
so i dont follow your point.
Also meanwhile, callaway is a partner with gm, and callaway cars are sold at gm dealerships... with... magnesium face wheels, and carbon drums... big and wide... weighing in at under 20 lbs all day long.
So... i dont follow you at all. Its one thing to not know... it another thing to just flat out tell someone they are wrong.
And therefore i have no issue in saying, you are wrong.
And whats so hard about a carbon torque tube or carbon body panels or carbon interior... ok, so the seat is on magnesium rails... still, there are race seats made out of carbon out there that much much lighter.
I guess rather than debate, i would be willing to put a wager on it.
Youve said how much you think the car will weigh, i say it will be at least 100 lbs less.
Anything in the middle is a tie, and thats doing you a favor, because i could simply say anything under your weight and i win... but im giving your guess an extra 100 lbs of error.
How much would you like to bet good sir?
21 lbs front, 24 lbs rear.
Last edited by Gearhead Jim; 07-29-2013 at 10:26 PM.
07-29-2013, 10:29 PM
#76
sometimes a good offense is the best defense. I can't imagine how they will shed any significant weight...they will just add significant hp gains with the addition of a SC or turbos.
07-30-2013, 02:50 AM
#79
Intermediate
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Here is my take, I am sure it is less knowledgable than some of yours.
-Wheels. Magnesium wheels aren't likely. Nobody is doing it these days much, and the last time Chevy did they had some issues. As for Carbon wheels, lol. So wider wheels and wider tires should add 20-30 pounds.
-Per Keeks, Ox, and the rumor mill we are getting one more C7 and it will have forced induction. The ZR1 should be a good testament to how much taht would add over a Z06. Lets just say really good case 100 lbs (blower, intercooler, piping) + 20 pounds (beefed up shafts, etc)
-if the car gets a DCT it will add a couple hundred pounds by most accounts. I'm guessing it won't.
-How much can really be stripped from deleting soundproofing, interior niceties, and etc? I doubt it will have analog gauges or less electronic aids (saving the weight of wiring), could it have lighter seats, sure, but would the average vette buyer complain about lack of heating/cooling? And they are already magnesium. Maybe -10 pounds.
-All carbon body panels should delete some weight.
-They could go Ti exhaust, but i'm just not seeing it. They didn't for the C6 generation, and they haven't raised price on the base Vette and I'm not seeing them releasing a hi-po Vette at ONLY 100k+ (ala ZR1)... so I'm betting not.
Carbon brakes should save some weight.
Carbon tub to save weight? Forget it.
I would go look up the chart showing all the weight they gained and why, but gents, it just doesn't add up to much hope of substantial weight savings. And to all the optimists out there, assuming that the great team at Corvette will come to save the day with a massively lighter Z model...
-did you think it would have just 455/460 hp?
-did you think it would go low 12's in the mid/upper teens in the 1/4 mile?
-did you think it would really have that rear end?
-did you think it would really weigh substantially more than the alst car? (100lbs or more so far, right?)
-did you think etc etc etc
Car lovers, self included, are just really optimistic about their brand. Not one person posting in this thread assuming the hipo model will be meaningfully lighter thought the base car would be meaningfully HEAVIER 8 months ago. Not one Vette optmistic thought they would drop 455 on the world...
We're going to have a heavy, FI, Z car, folks. We're going to be one of the few of the new generation of cars to gain weight, much less substantial weight. That's my guess. And its too bad.
-Wheels. Magnesium wheels aren't likely. Nobody is doing it these days much, and the last time Chevy did they had some issues. As for Carbon wheels, lol. So wider wheels and wider tires should add 20-30 pounds.
-Per Keeks, Ox, and the rumor mill we are getting one more C7 and it will have forced induction. The ZR1 should be a good testament to how much taht would add over a Z06. Lets just say really good case 100 lbs (blower, intercooler, piping) + 20 pounds (beefed up shafts, etc)
-if the car gets a DCT it will add a couple hundred pounds by most accounts. I'm guessing it won't.
-How much can really be stripped from deleting soundproofing, interior niceties, and etc? I doubt it will have analog gauges or less electronic aids (saving the weight of wiring), could it have lighter seats, sure, but would the average vette buyer complain about lack of heating/cooling? And they are already magnesium. Maybe -10 pounds.
-All carbon body panels should delete some weight.
-They could go Ti exhaust, but i'm just not seeing it. They didn't for the C6 generation, and they haven't raised price on the base Vette and I'm not seeing them releasing a hi-po Vette at ONLY 100k+ (ala ZR1)... so I'm betting not.
Carbon brakes should save some weight.
Carbon tub to save weight? Forget it.
I would go look up the chart showing all the weight they gained and why, but gents, it just doesn't add up to much hope of substantial weight savings. And to all the optimists out there, assuming that the great team at Corvette will come to save the day with a massively lighter Z model...
-did you think it would have just 455/460 hp?
-did you think it would go low 12's in the mid/upper teens in the 1/4 mile?
-did you think it would really have that rear end?
-did you think it would really weigh substantially more than the alst car? (100lbs or more so far, right?)
-did you think etc etc etc
Car lovers, self included, are just really optimistic about their brand. Not one person posting in this thread assuming the hipo model will be meaningfully lighter thought the base car would be meaningfully HEAVIER 8 months ago. Not one Vette optmistic thought they would drop 455 on the world...
We're going to have a heavy, FI, Z car, folks. We're going to be one of the few of the new generation of cars to gain weight, much less substantial weight. That's my guess. And its too bad.
07-30-2013, 03:25 AM
#80
Just saw the new bmw i3 uses the first mass production of carbon fiber reinforced plastic (CFRP) for the chassis. maybe the new z/zr1 will incorporate this as well?