How is GM going to reduce the curb weight of the future Hi-Po C7?
07-28-2013, 11:47 PM
#21
Melting Slicks
But consider the following... GM comes out with a "carbon" interior. They have already said they will sell the dash facia in carbon in the parts department.
Not saying they will do this... but if i was in charge... i WOULD do this...
You offer carbon fiber interior upgrades. Seats. Inner door panels. Dash board.
Then if a person doesnt want to fork the cash for a new z06, and they had the option to just upgrade parts and shave weight...
I mean think about all the kids 20 year olds who get mustangs, and their dad wouldn't buy them a cobra, so they blow another 10 grand in upgrades trying to make it look like one.
If GM offered these parts, i think people would buy them. So its not just a "limited run" part. Its something that you could even offer in the base car, just as they came out with grandsport and 427 convertible, etc... you do that, but with interior upgrades that the public would know separate the z06 from the stock car.
Last edited by irun4cops; 07-29-2013 at 02:40 AM.
07-29-2013, 12:05 AM
#22
Safety Car
I think the trick lies mainly in finding way to add power without increasing weight not so much on how to shave it. The LT1 seems to be build for FI. TVS will not be installed without at least 150lb increase in weight. The blower alone is huge weight increase, then all the cooling and beefing up the drivelines. The manifold it replaces is virtually weightless by comparison. That's 3600lbs.
Will GM be able to shave weight after? Not more than 50lbs is my guess. There is virtually no steel to be replaced. The targa weighs next to nothing. The seats are magnesium already. TI exhaust and AFM/related parts delte could yield 50lbs but nothing more.
Some folks are saying light wheels. I don't see it. Wheels are forged already. OEMs won't thin out the spoke, hub, or barrel to shave 1lb. It's far to risky liability wise. Wheels and tires will only add weight on the upcoming car.
I'd say 3550lbs minimum for the Hi-po model.
Will GM be able to shave weight after? Not more than 50lbs is my guess. There is virtually no steel to be replaced. The targa weighs next to nothing. The seats are magnesium already. TI exhaust and AFM/related parts delte could yield 50lbs but nothing more.
Some folks are saying light wheels. I don't see it. Wheels are forged already. OEMs won't thin out the spoke, hub, or barrel to shave 1lb. It's far to risky liability wise. Wheels and tires will only add weight on the upcoming car.
I'd say 3550lbs minimum for the Hi-po model.
07-29-2013, 12:19 AM
#23
Safety Car
I seriously wonder whether GM included wire weight in their calculations of weight increases. All this integration and electronic gizmos need wires to communicate. Don't be surprised the if the wiring harness for the whole car gained 1xx lbs. Ok, maybe 50lbs but still.
Last edited by SBC_and_a_stick; 07-29-2013 at 12:40 AM.
07-29-2013, 12:49 AM
#24
Here is the manifest:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c7-g...ght-gains.html
I'll take a stab at what I think they might do to loose weight while keeping the cost low using similar molds or technology in hand. These are nothing more than my guesses:
1. Torque tube (back to AL or CF) = -15 lbs or more
2. Remove AFM -(5 for valves + ~10 in the engine) = -15 lbs
3. Lightweight seats = -25 lbs
4. Ti Exhaust without valves = -20 lbs
5. Low mass rims = -15 lbs total
6. Smaller battery = -10 lbs
7. Additional CF body panels = -10 lbs
8. Lower weight or Lexan rear window = -20 lbs
9. Additional Magnesium in the Frame or Suspension = -30 lbs
10. Reduced sound absorbing material = -15 lbs
11. Increased use of Alacantra in the interior = -5 lbs
12. Deletion of the hardware for a targa top = -10 lbs
Total Savings for minimal additional cost = -190 lbs = 3250 curb weight
Additional weight saving could be had by more extensive use of CF, Magnesium, and Ti. I think these things would add a lot to the MSRP but would certainly be great ways to drop the weight...
1. CF tub = -30 lbs?
2. Ti Exhaust Manifolds -30 lbs?
3. CF interior = -50 lbs?
Weight adding or weight neutral items:
1. Carbon ceramic brakes - They'll probably draw from the same parts bin as before on the ZR1 and Z06 Carbon = hopefully weight neutral.
2. Larger displacement motor = + 10 lbs vs FI = +80 lbs
3. Wider tires = +20 lbs
That would suggest a NA Z car could come in around ~ 3300 and a FI Z car would be ~ 3350 (hopefully) using relatively inexpensive weight saving mods. 3200 lbs would be possible on the C7 platform but the cost probably starts to rise dramatically.
I'm skeptical about them going all out with a CF interior and tub and other more extreme measures because the sales volume of the C6 Z06 and ZR1 was not that strong. Hard to know how much of the economic downturn of the country impacted these numbers, but as the Z06 rapidly increased in price, the production numbers sharply fell. By the end, a well-optioned Z06 carbon cost nearly 6 figures! I think the general needs to figure out how to give us more performance for less additional $$$.
I worry the same dismal sales production volumes are going to plague any sports car that is priced above 6 figures. The market for a car like that is not going to grow.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c7-g...ght-gains.html
I'll take a stab at what I think they might do to loose weight while keeping the cost low using similar molds or technology in hand. These are nothing more than my guesses:
1. Torque tube (back to AL or CF) = -15 lbs or more
2. Remove AFM -(5 for valves + ~10 in the engine) = -15 lbs
3. Lightweight seats = -25 lbs
4. Ti Exhaust without valves = -20 lbs
5. Low mass rims = -15 lbs total
6. Smaller battery = -10 lbs
7. Additional CF body panels = -10 lbs
8. Lower weight or Lexan rear window = -20 lbs
9. Additional Magnesium in the Frame or Suspension = -30 lbs
10. Reduced sound absorbing material = -15 lbs
11. Increased use of Alacantra in the interior = -5 lbs
12. Deletion of the hardware for a targa top = -10 lbs
Total Savings for minimal additional cost = -190 lbs = 3250 curb weight
Additional weight saving could be had by more extensive use of CF, Magnesium, and Ti. I think these things would add a lot to the MSRP but would certainly be great ways to drop the weight...
1. CF tub = -30 lbs?
2. Ti Exhaust Manifolds -30 lbs?
3. CF interior = -50 lbs?
Weight adding or weight neutral items:
1. Carbon ceramic brakes - They'll probably draw from the same parts bin as before on the ZR1 and Z06 Carbon = hopefully weight neutral.
2. Larger displacement motor = + 10 lbs vs FI = +80 lbs
3. Wider tires = +20 lbs
That would suggest a NA Z car could come in around ~ 3300 and a FI Z car would be ~ 3350 (hopefully) using relatively inexpensive weight saving mods. 3200 lbs would be possible on the C7 platform but the cost probably starts to rise dramatically.
I'm skeptical about them going all out with a CF interior and tub and other more extreme measures because the sales volume of the C6 Z06 and ZR1 was not that strong. Hard to know how much of the economic downturn of the country impacted these numbers, but as the Z06 rapidly increased in price, the production numbers sharply fell. By the end, a well-optioned Z06 carbon cost nearly 6 figures! I think the general needs to figure out how to give us more performance for less additional $$$.
I worry the same dismal sales production volumes are going to plague any sports car that is priced above 6 figures. The market for a car like that is not going to grow.
07-29-2013, 12:57 AM
#25
Melting Slicks
If we were having a debate in person, i would ask if you know what c5 z06 wheels weighed, and to skip the drama, i will answer, 17 and 19 lbs, front and rears. Thats about 10 lbs lighter than any wheels they offered on c6.
Meanwhile, gm has offered mag wheels back on the c5 as well.
so i dont follow your point.
Also meanwhile, callaway is a partner with gm, and callaway cars are sold at gm dealerships... with... magnesium face wheels, and carbon drums... big and wide... weighing in at under 20 lbs all day long.
So... i dont follow you at all. Its one thing to not know... it another thing to just flat out tell someone they are wrong.
And therefore i have no issue in saying, you are wrong.
And whats so hard about a carbon torque tube or carbon body panels or carbon interior... ok, so the seat is on magnesium rails... still, there are race seats made out of carbon out there that much much lighter.
I guess rather than debate, i would be willing to put a wager on it.
Youve said how much you think the car will weigh, i say it will be at least 100 lbs less.
Anything in the middle is a tie, and thats doing you a favor, because i could simply say anything under your weight and i win... but im giving your guess an extra 100 lbs of error.
How much would you like to bet good sir?
07-29-2013, 01:03 AM
#26
Melting Slicks
youre saying z06 and zr1.. will be 3600-50= 3550lbs.
And im simply saying, anything under 3450, and you owe me some money... as soon as you come up with how much you would like to wager... that with another 30,000-55,000 dollars... gm cant lose weight on a car to compensate for the power that is about to be added.
Please, choose a high dollar figure.
And im simply saying, anything under 3450, and you owe me some money... as soon as you come up with how much you would like to wager... that with another 30,000-55,000 dollars... gm cant lose weight on a car to compensate for the power that is about to be added.
Please, choose a high dollar figure.
07-29-2013, 01:05 AM
#27
Melting Slicks
not to mention, you all keep ignoring the reality that chevy isnt going to leave their drivers without a paddle shift when all other cars on lemans have such. This means a lightweight, pdk trans.
Weight lost. A lot of weight.
Weight lost. A lot of weight.
07-29-2013, 01:08 AM
#28
Safety Car
I'll take both bets. $100 each.
First bet: next model vette will not have wheels that shave 15lbs or more
Second bet: next model vette will not shave 100lbs or more
Money!!
First bet: next model vette will not have wheels that shave 15lbs or more
Second bet: next model vette will not shave 100lbs or more
Money!!
07-29-2013, 01:09 AM
#29
Melting Slicks
so what is the downside to a mag wheel? they shatter if curbed. But they dont shatter from bumps (very rare)
so you are chevy, and you have the opportunity to make money on a oem 1500 dollar wheel when guys wives curb them.
Oh no, thats just a horrible idea that makes money. Dont do that.
so you are chevy, and you have the opportunity to make money on a oem 1500 dollar wheel when guys wives curb them.
Oh no, thats just a horrible idea that makes money. Dont do that.
07-29-2013, 01:11 AM
#31
Melting Slicks
I simply said it will weigh under 3450. You said over 3550. The in between is the neutral tie zone.
I dont need to bet on the wheels... i just dont need someone telling me chevy cant produce lighter wheels, when history shows they already have... and callaway still does. Dymag makes the wheel btw. And the c5 z06 wheels were made in italy and were a magnesium alloy blend.
07-29-2013, 01:13 AM
#32
Le Mans Master
I was thinking about this one maybe be happening
07-29-2013, 01:17 AM
#33
Safety Car
who said anything about shaving weight? you said it was going to gain hundreds of lbs.
I simply said it will weigh under 3450. You said over 3550. The in between is the neutral tie zone.
I dont need to bet on the wheels... i just dont need someone telling me chevy cant produce lighter wheels, when history shows they already have... and callaway still does. Dymag makes the wheel btw. And the c5 z06 wheels were made in italy and were a magnesium alloy blend.
I simply said it will weigh under 3450. You said over 3550. The in between is the neutral tie zone.
I dont need to bet on the wheels... i just dont need someone telling me chevy cant produce lighter wheels, when history shows they already have... and callaway still does. Dymag makes the wheel btw. And the c5 z06 wheels were made in italy and were a magnesium alloy blend.
07-29-2013, 01:18 AM
#34
Pro
Member Since: Jan 2000
Location: Anaheim Hills, Calif.
Posts: 745
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Maybe if I eat less Pizza, and drink less beer? Oh, that's just crazy talk!
Seriously, I think they will go with more CF body parts, TI exhaust, ceramic rotors, torque tube in another material. It can be done, it will just cost money.
The C7 is a fantastic platform to improve on, its so amazing.
Seriously, I think they will go with more CF body parts, TI exhaust, ceramic rotors, torque tube in another material. It can be done, it will just cost money.
The C7 is a fantastic platform to improve on, its so amazing.
07-29-2013, 01:19 AM
#35
Melting Slicks
and ps... for the expert who says the wheels are already forged...
yeah... great.... the c5 z06 wheels were cast.
And are lighter. So what is your point?
Im sorry, i just have an issue with people showing up, after other people like the guy above me take the time to logically show where weight can be saved and how it can be done... and you get some guy who just walks in with no logic to back anything he is saying... and just starts announcing how its going to be.
So... get your wallet out.
yeah... great.... the c5 z06 wheels were cast.
And are lighter. So what is your point?
Im sorry, i just have an issue with people showing up, after other people like the guy above me take the time to logically show where weight can be saved and how it can be done... and you get some guy who just walks in with no logic to back anything he is saying... and just starts announcing how its going to be.
So... get your wallet out.
07-29-2013, 01:22 AM
#36
Safety Car
PDK is not lighter:
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...-pdk-tech-dept
And I will take the bets as I listed. You talk a lot, just take the bets, wasn't that the whole point?
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...-pdk-tech-dept
And I will take the bets as I listed. You talk a lot, just take the bets, wasn't that the whole point?
07-29-2013, 01:23 AM
#37
Melting Slicks
yes, im just bringing the bet back to my original proposal... before you tried to tweak it.
if the car weighs over 3550, you win.
If the car weighs below 3450, i win.
Anything in the middle is a tie.
Unless you are willing to put your money on your original statement, and anything under 3550 is a win for me?
If those terms are agreeable... name your dollar amount, and shoot me your address, and ill shoot you mine.
if the car weighs over 3550, you win.
If the car weighs below 3450, i win.
Anything in the middle is a tie.
Unless you are willing to put your money on your original statement, and anything under 3550 is a win for me?
If those terms are agreeable... name your dollar amount, and shoot me your address, and ill shoot you mine.
07-29-2013, 01:24 AM
#38
Melting Slicks
i will pay my bet. And since i know i will, i need to make sure you will, and thats why i need an address, because i can check and make sure you are you.
07-29-2013, 01:25 AM
#39
Safety Car
Ok, I'll make it easier for you. $100 each.
First bet: next model vette will not have wheels that shave 15lbs or more over the Z51 C7
Second bet: next model vette will not shave 100lbs or more from 3550lbs.
Will you take these two?
First bet: next model vette will not have wheels that shave 15lbs or more over the Z51 C7
Second bet: next model vette will not shave 100lbs or more from 3550lbs.
Will you take these two?
07-29-2013, 01:26 AM
#40
Team Owner
I remember the good ol' days when the Corvette weighed 3200 lbs.