Corvette Versus Porsche from the eyes of a Porsche Guy lets moderate the trolls!
08-15-2013, 06:39 PM
#281
Drifting
Member Since: Feb 2002
Location: Chapel Hill NC
Posts: 1,260
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is no unglued about; the 356 wasn't based on the VW. The first Porsche 356 was based on the 356/1, which was a prototype mid-engine two-seat roadster (convertible) whose overall design was the responsibility of Ferdinand "Ferry" Porsche, the son of Dr. Ing. Ferdinand Porsche (who designed the VW). The 356/1's body was designed by Porsche employee Erwin Komenda. The 356/1's design set the pattern for the 356. On the production 356 the engine was moved behind the rear axle to reduce costs and make room for two additional seats.
This is the 356/1, the car the 356 is based on. The 911 was designed to be the replacement for the 356.
This is the 356/1, the car the 356 is based on. The 911 was designed to be the replacement for the 356.
Second, when the 911 was designed, did Porsche keep the engine placement to provide the two jump seats?
Thanks
FWIS no one, not even Porsche, "knows" why Porsche has the following it has in the US. The present 911 is water cooled and the engine keeps inching toward the rear axel. The SUVs and sedans sell like crazy "because" they'er Porsche. Great brand marketing. The only slip I can recall was when Porsche tried to move to front mid-engined cars with the 928/924/944. Very good cars but did not sell well in California.
08-15-2013, 06:58 PM
#282
Banned Scam/Spammer
08-15-2013, 07:48 PM
#283
Safety Car
Member Since: Feb 2002
Location: GA (some days)
Posts: 3,799
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
08-15-2013, 07:55 PM
#284
Safety Car
Member Since: Feb 2002
Location: GA (some days)
Posts: 3,799
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There are other things you do without lowering the engine; replace the turbochargers, replace the DVs, replace the FPR, replace the brake reservoir, replace the radiators, replace the power steering pump, etc.
08-15-2013, 08:35 PM
#285
It does create a stiff structure by being a honeycomb of sheet metal compartments, but that chassis format then also creates a unbearable repair work environment. The fact that the 356 was based on the VW Beetle(also cheap unibody construction) and Porsche never modernized their chassis format, even up to the 911-991, now they're stuck with it.
In R&T's data panel for the 1964 911:
"Frame type...unit with chassis"
Their data panel for the VW Beetle tested 1968:
"Body/frame platform with central 'spine,' separate steel body"
08-15-2013, 08:48 PM
#286
Race Director
Yeah - I guess nobody told Bruce Meyers that when he designed and built all those dune buggys based on the VW chassis!
08-15-2013, 11:16 PM
#287
Drifting
Member Since: Feb 2002
Location: Chapel Hill NC
Posts: 1,260
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Got off my lazy duff and dug out "Porsche:Excellence was to be Expected." According to the first couple of chapters, the plan was to use VW components to make a relatively inexpensive to manufacture sports car with lots of profit margin in it. Inspired what Cisitalia had done with the use of Fiat parts in a sports car. And that's what Porsche did. Lots of VW parts, some stock, some modified: engine, gear box, suspension, steering, etc. The reason given for going to the engine behind the rear axel was to get extra luggage space. Now that I've blown the dust off the book, I'll have to re read it! By the way, the book ends with the 928 which some have called the Porsche Corvette!
08-15-2013, 11:41 PM
#288
Safety Car
Member Since: Feb 2002
Location: GA (some days)
Posts: 3,799
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Got off my lazy duff and dug out "Porsche:Excellence was to be Expected." According to the first couple of chapters, the plan was to use VW components to make a relatively inexpensive to manufacture sports car with lots of profit margin in it. Inspired what Cisitalia had done with the use of Fiat parts in a sports car. And that's what Porsche did. Lots of VW parts, some stock, some modified: engine, gear box, suspension, steering, etc. The reason given for going to the engine behind the rear axel was to get extra luggage space. Now that I've blown the dust off the book, I'll have to re read it! By the way, the book ends with the 928 which some have called the Porsche Corvette!
The overall design of the production 356 was based on the 356/1, which was a two seat, mid-engine roadster that looks nothing like a VW Beetle.
(None of this is directed to you personally, just offered as an extension of the discussion).
08-16-2013, 08:02 AM
#289
Drifting
Member Since: Feb 2002
Location: Chapel Hill NC
Posts: 1,260
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There are without question VW parts in a 356. There are VW parts in Audi's too. Does anyone call the Audi a "VW"?
The overall design of the production 356 was based on the 356/1, which was a two seat, mid-engine roadster that looks nothing like a VW Beetle.
(None of this is directed to you personally, just offered as an extension of the discussion).
The overall design of the production 356 was based on the 356/1, which was a two seat, mid-engine roadster that looks nothing like a VW Beetle.
(None of this is directed to you personally, just offered as an extension of the discussion).
Some folks get very upset when parts already in production are used on "their car" espically if the parts are visible and come from a less expensive model. I've never really understood that. To take an extreme case, the 1952 300SL consisted of running gear, including wheels, from the 300 sedan with a new chassis and a new body. The body was modeled after the Porsche coupe! In Porsche's case one of the persons quoted in the book points out that the parts from the VW had been extensively tested for the VW and were very reliable. Not to mention that the Porsche folks did a lot of the engineering and design and development of the VW before and during the war and were under contract to VW after the war. I suspect that it's an issue of miss placed pride. So in a way, the production 356 was bin engineered from the VW bins. The chassis and body was all Porsche. Why that is a negative statement is beyond me.
08-16-2013, 08:46 AM
#291
Race Director
08-16-2013, 10:11 AM
#292
Melting Slicks
I looked at several 911s very seriously before I just bought my 13 C6 Grand Sport coupe. They all drove and handled beautifully, but cant say it was a life changing experience.
At 6'3" tall, 34" inseam and 225 lbs, I could not get comfortable in any 911. Could not get the steering wheel out of my knees . . . not enough tilt or telescope with the seat adjusted up for my thighs. Sat in the Vette and didn't even need the steering wheel at maximum tilt or the seat all the way back for my legs. Seemed much, much roomier inside for me. End of story, even though the interior was a bit less luxurious I bought the C6.
Perhaps if Porsche junked those ridiculous rear "seats"and then put a little more leg room in the front seat travel guys my size or bigger could probably try a 911. That said, I've never been a fan of the 911 styling, and actually think the new Boxsters are the better looking cars.
Of course, the way the 911 is growing in size, in a few years it will probably will be big enough for me to try it.
Craig
At 6'3" tall, 34" inseam and 225 lbs, I could not get comfortable in any 911. Could not get the steering wheel out of my knees . . . not enough tilt or telescope with the seat adjusted up for my thighs. Sat in the Vette and didn't even need the steering wheel at maximum tilt or the seat all the way back for my legs. Seemed much, much roomier inside for me. End of story, even though the interior was a bit less luxurious I bought the C6.
Perhaps if Porsche junked those ridiculous rear "seats"and then put a little more leg room in the front seat travel guys my size or bigger could probably try a 911. That said, I've never been a fan of the 911 styling, and actually think the new Boxsters are the better looking cars.
Of course, the way the 911 is growing in size, in a few years it will probably will be big enough for me to try it.
Craig
08-16-2013, 11:59 AM
#293
Race Director
At 6'3" tall, 34" inseam and 225 lbs, I could not get comfortable in any 911. Could not get the steering wheel out of my knees . . . not enough tilt or telescope with the seat adjusted up for my thighs. Sat in the Vette and didn't even need the steering wheel at maximum tilt or the seat all the way back for my legs. Seemed much, much roomier inside for me. End of story, even though the interior was a bit less luxurious I bought the C6.
Perhaps if Porsche junked those ridiculous rear "seats"and then put a little more leg room in the front seat travel guys my size or bigger could probably try a 911. That said, I've never been a fan of the 911 styling, and actually think the new Boxsters are the better looking cars.
Of course, the way the 911 is growing in size, in a few years it will probably will be big enough for me to try it.
Craig
Perhaps if Porsche junked those ridiculous rear "seats"and then put a little more leg room in the front seat travel guys my size or bigger could probably try a 911. That said, I've never been a fan of the 911 styling, and actually think the new Boxsters are the better looking cars.
Of course, the way the 911 is growing in size, in a few years it will probably will be big enough for me to try it.
Craig
Exactly! I fit MUCH better in a C6 (and hopefully C7) than in any 901 based series car - and I am totally uncomfortable in any Boxster/Cayman. Guess I'm just a good ole boy Bubba who prefers those 'murican cars...............
Last edited by tuxnharley; 08-16-2013 at 01:09 PM. Reason: typo
08-16-2013, 12:18 PM
#294
Banned Scam/Spammer
I looked at several 911s very seriously before I just bought my 13 C6 Grand Sport coupe. They all drove and handled beautifully, but cant say it was a life changing experience.
At 6'3" tall, 34" inseam and 225 lbs, I could not get comfortable in any 911. Could not get the steering wheel out of my knees . . . not enough tilt or telescope with the seat adjusted up for my thighs. Sat in the Vette and didn't even need the steering wheel at maximum tilt or the seat all the way back for my legs. Seemed much, much roomier inside for me. End of story, even though the interior was a bit less luxurious I bought the C6.
Perhaps if Porsche junked those ridiculous rear "seats"and then put a little more leg room in the front seat travel guys my size or bigger could probably try a 911. That said, I've never been a fan of the 911 styling, and actually think the new Boxsters are the better looking cars.
Of course, the way the 911 is growing in size, in a few years it will probably will be big enough for me to try it.
Craig
At 6'3" tall, 34" inseam and 225 lbs, I could not get comfortable in any 911. Could not get the steering wheel out of my knees . . . not enough tilt or telescope with the seat adjusted up for my thighs. Sat in the Vette and didn't even need the steering wheel at maximum tilt or the seat all the way back for my legs. Seemed much, much roomier inside for me. End of story, even though the interior was a bit less luxurious I bought the C6.
Perhaps if Porsche junked those ridiculous rear "seats"and then put a little more leg room in the front seat travel guys my size or bigger could probably try a 911. That said, I've never been a fan of the 911 styling, and actually think the new Boxsters are the better looking cars.
Of course, the way the 911 is growing in size, in a few years it will probably will be big enough for me to try it.
Craig
08-16-2013, 12:38 PM
#295
Drifting
People would be buying more new Porsches if the price was lower say like 60k starting for a 911 instead of the 84k. The boxster should start around 42k with the cayman around 48k. That's if porsche wanted volume but obviously they're going after profit hence the over inflated prices.
08-16-2013, 01:51 PM
#296
Banned Scam/Spammer
People would be buying more new Porsches if the price was lower say like 60k starting for a 911 instead of the 84k. The boxster should start around 42k with the cayman around 48k. That's if porsche wanted volume but obviously they're going after profit hence the over inflated prices.
08-16-2013, 03:29 PM
#297
Lose weight problem solved lol. German cars are built with Europeans and other foreigners in mind not for the country with the highest obesity rate in the world.
08-16-2013, 08:05 PM
#298
$84,000 base price for a 911 is ridiculous and ends up around $100,000 with a few basic options. 60 grand base price would be more palatable for some but hardly a bargain. Keep in mind that a 5.0 Mustang will skin a 911 in a straight line and that is flatly laughable when you consider the absurd 911 price.
But then what happens in the braking zone of that straight line, and into the corners...
Clearly not designed for Big Gulps, though it will keep drinks warm/cool.
Quality vs quantity thing again.
08-17-2013, 02:40 AM
#299
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Jul 2009
Location: Los Angeles California
Posts: 9,526
Likes: 0
Received 10 Likes
on
10 Posts
Is there something else that I could take away that I wouldn't get with the C7? Please, enlighten me. Not to sound like a jerk, but I've yet to be convinced by anyone that - other than status - there's something better about Porsches. And I worked at a Porsche shop for a handfull of years.
08-17-2013, 08:18 AM
#300
Race Director
Not really. Mustangs are built in volumes of what, 70-80k/year, and that same basic engine is used in many other cars (Ford Falcon in Australia) as well as trucks (F150). Meanwhile, Porsche's flat-6 is used only in its sports cars. The interior is likewise a more labor-intensive and low-volume affair, with leatherwork for the dashboard done in-house. Watch from 0:45 -
http://youtu.be/339dV6VDou8?t=45s
At 60 grand, where does that leave the Cayman? What's ridiculous is that you seem to think you know more about Porsche's product placement than they do.
But then what happens in the braking zone of that straight line, and into the corners...
I recall back in the day, when German engineers were asked why their cars had no cupholders, they'd reply "Why would you be drinking when you're driving?"
Clearly not designed for Big Gulps, though it will keep drinks warm/cool.
Quality vs quantity thing again.
http://youtu.be/339dV6VDou8?t=45s
At 60 grand, where does that leave the Cayman? What's ridiculous is that you seem to think you know more about Porsche's product placement than they do.
But then what happens in the braking zone of that straight line, and into the corners...
I recall back in the day, when German engineers were asked why their cars had no cupholders, they'd reply "Why would you be drinking when you're driving?"
Clearly not designed for Big Gulps, though it will keep drinks warm/cool.
Quality vs quantity thing again.
Till then...I'll just be laughing as I'm tooling around in a sports car that can kick the crap out of the boxster S, the cayman S and the 911 S...