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Old 05-14-2013, 11:02 AM   #1
travisnd
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Default How much is the new front end design influenced by Euro pedestrian crash laws?

Did any of the design seminars at the bash address this? Is it true the protrusions on the front fascia and the taller hood cowl are there specifically to meed Euro pedestrian crash standards?

I saw a video linked in another thread specifically discussing why so many new cars look so similar. Flatter, taller front ends and taller hoods (for more space between the hood and engine) give pedestrians more of a chance for less injury.

IMO it's making cars bulky and ugly... higher hoods = high belt lines we're seeing since the design has to flow. My $0.02 if you can't look both ways before you cross you deserve what's coming to you. If a drunk is flying through an intersection at 80 you're screwed no matter what. Stop making our cars uglier... better yet why not mandate pedestrian safety gear

EDIT - I love the C7... I just think it'd look even better with a lower sleeker profile and no front end fang things and it annoys me that these are here because of stupid laws. One of the teaser videos showed C7 design sketches and one was the front end sans fangs... much cooler.
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Old 05-14-2013, 11:28 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by travisnd View Post
Did any of the design seminars at the bash address this? Is it true the protrusions on the front fascia and the taller hood cowl are there specifically to meed Euro pedestrian crash standards?

I saw a video linked in another thread specifically discussing why so many new cars look so similar. Flatter, taller front ends and taller hoods (for more space between the hood and engine) give pedestrians more of a chance for less injury.

IMO it's making cars bulky and ugly... higher hoods = high belt lines we're seeing since the design has to flow. My $0.02 if you can't look both ways before you cross you deserve what's coming to you. If a drunk is flying through an intersection at 80 you're screwed no matter what. Stop making our cars uglier... better yet why not mandate pedestrian safety gear

EDIT - I love the C7... I just think it'd look even better with a lower sleeker profile and no front end fang things and it annoys me that these are here because of stupid laws. One of the teaser videos showed C7 design sketches and one was the front end sans fangs... much cooler.
Cannot get much lower, if at all, with a V8 engine under the hood. Just the inch or so that the body can be lowered that many have done with the C6. This isn't low?:

Click the image to open in full size.
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Old 05-14-2013, 11:34 AM   #3
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Actually a great deal of it is affected by the European pedestrian safety laws.

The bumper design, the front fascia, the "fangs", the headlights, hood height, and inner design are all impacted by EU/NCAP Phase 1 and Phase 2 Pedestrian safety.

Keep in mind however that simple ergonomics play a role in the greenhouse height, the belt line, the windshield rake, the angles because a certain amount of volume must be available for cabin isolation and comfort as well as adequate ingress and egress.

You are further constrained by domestic safety laws, room for inflatable restraint systems, steering column impact, knee room etc.

There are currently 16 different crash and impact tests that must be done to certify the car as crash and impact worthy for the markets they plan to sell the Corvette.

Last edited by talon90; 05-14-2013 at 11:37 AM.
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Old 05-14-2013, 11:50 AM   #4
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Cannot get much lower, if at all, with a V8 engine under the hood. Just the inch or so that the body can be lowered that many have done with the C6. This isn't low?:

Click the image to open in full size.
I'm not talking about ride height at all. The hood is beginning to have a cowl reminiscent of a Mustang. One of my favorite things about the C5 is how low-slung the center of the hood is; the cowl isn't raised at all. Great road view. No issues fitting a V8 under a very low hood line here. Look how tall the front end of the car is on the C7 vs. the sleek C5.
Click the image to open in full size.
Click the image to open in full size.

Then with the C6 they went a little higher, but nothing compared to the C7.
Click the image to open in full size.
Click the image to open in full size.

These crash standards necessitate the high hood/fenders which then creates the need for the super high belt line... then you can't cruise with your arm out the window. Just look at the Gen V Camaro... the C7 is very similar.


Quote:
Originally Posted by talon90 View Post
Actually a great deal of it is affected by the European pedestrian safety laws.

The bumper design, the front fascia, the "fangs", the headlights, hood height, and inner design are all impacted by EU/NCAP Phase 1 and Phase 2 Pedestrian safety.

Keep in mind however that simple ergonomics play a role in the greenhouse height, the belt line, the windshield rake, the angles because a certain amount of volume must be available for cabin isolation and comfort as well as adequate ingress and egress.

You are further constrained by domestic safety laws, room for inflatable restraint systems, steering column impact, knee room etc.

There are currently 16 different crash and impact tests that must be done to certify the car as crash and impact worthy for the markets they plan to sell the Corvette.
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Old 05-14-2013, 11:56 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by travisnd View Post
I'm not talking about ride height at all. The hood is beginning to have a cowl reminiscent of a Mustang.
Part of that cowl height is to make sure there's room for... um... other things.

But you're totally right in that another huge part of it is PedPro. I've stated here a few times: it's a shot across the bow (hood?) of sorts. These laws are going to get worse and worse unless you yell at your respective Congess-critters. Pedestrians don't need to be protected from cars, they need to stay the f(!) out of the road when there's traffic nearby.

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Old 05-14-2013, 11:56 AM   #6
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Yep, thank the nanny states (countries).
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Old 05-14-2013, 12:08 PM   #7
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As much as we have heard that the pop up headlights from the C5 were discarded because the C6R "race teams" wanted flush headlights on the C6, the truth is that the C5 pop up headlights would not conform to the EU pedestrian regulations, so they were eliminated.

BTW, the C5R race cars did not have pop up headlights, as they used almost flush headlights.
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Old 05-14-2013, 12:11 PM   #8
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Part of that cowl height is to make sure there's room for... um... other things.

But you're totally right in that another huge part of it is PedPro. I've stated here a few times: it's a shot across the bow (hood?) of sorts. These laws are going to get worse and worse unless you yell at your respective Congess-critters. Pedestrians don't need to be protected from cars, they need to stay the f(!) out of the road when there's traffic nearby.

jas
Yes... I know some of the cowl is to make room for the supercharger coming on the hi-po variant, but even on the C6 ZR1 they only increased the cowl height 1" over the standard C6 hood. I'm sure this move in the C7 allows them to use one hood across all variants, but it just look so chunky when viewing it next to a C5 from a similar angle.

Just irks me that Euro nanny-state regulations are determining what we get here. I understand the "global economy" and all, but it's still annoying.

Again... for the record I love the C7's overall design, but these little things are starting to stick out and it annoys me because you know they wouldn't be there if the laws of other countries didn't require it.

I think my first mod to a C7 would be shaving the fangs and repainting. Easy to do.
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Old 05-14-2013, 12:32 PM   #9
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Question: How exactly do the fangs protect pedestrians?
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Old 05-14-2013, 12:49 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by travisnd View Post
I'm not talking about ride height at all. The hood is beginning to have a cowl reminiscent of a Mustang. One of my favorite things about the C5 is how low-slung the center of the hood is; the cowl isn't raised at all. Great road view. No issues fitting a V8 under a very low hood line here. Look how tall the front end of the ar is on the C7 vs. the sleek C5.
Many, many, many powerful cars over as many years have had hood bulges to accommodate a powerful engine. Within reason (and this qualifies in my opinion) I like that look. But that is purely a matter of personal preference.
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Old 05-14-2013, 12:55 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by travisnd View Post
Look how tall the front end of the car is on the C7 vs. the sleek C5.
Click the image to open in full size.
While I'm sure the C7's front end is taller, I think part of that has to do with the perspective from which the C5 photo was taken. It looks to have been from below ground level, which gives less of a view of the hood than from the vantage point of that C7 photo, which looks like the typical vantage point of a standing person looking slightly down at a low sports car.

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Originally Posted by travisnd View Post
Click the image to open in full size.
While this shows maybe a 1" rise in the hood cowl over the windshield base, the cut-out or valley between hood bulge and fender peak should still give a decent view of the road in front of the car.
Click the image to open in full size.

Will it be much different from a ZR1? My initial guess would be the views will be similar.
The C7 is certainly lower and sleeker than other front-engine coupes, the primary example being the new F-Type, which has a bathtub beltline by comparison. That car seems to be a chopped XK and retains the XK's active pop-up hood that provides additional crush space on top of the few inches that are already there.
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Old 05-14-2013, 01:03 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by JoesC5 View Post
As much as we have heard that the pop up headlights from the C5 were discarded because the C6R "race teams" wanted flush headlights on the C6, the truth is that the C5 pop up headlights would not conform to the EU pedestrian regulations, so they were eliminated.

BTW, the C5R race cars did not have pop up headlights, as they used almost flush headlights.
As much as Joe has argued this point for years, there is no evidence this was GM's reasoning. In fact there is evidence, that I have put here numerous times, that GM got rid of the popups for weight, reliability, efficiency and esthetic reasons. The lights were inefficient, looked old fashioned, were too heavy, were unreliable, and they wanted to get rid of them.
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Old 05-14-2013, 01:10 PM   #13
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Question: How exactly do the fangs protect pedestrians?
They break their ankles instead of their legs.
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Old 05-14-2013, 01:10 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magister Ludi View Post
Question: How exactly do the fangs protect pedestrians?
There are two aspects to the impact law. The first is intended to have the lowest point of impact below the knees of the pedestrian. With older (higher large protruding front bumper vehicles) the impact tends to fracture the knee or higher up on the torso doing internal damange and risking knocking the person over backward where they get run over by the vehicle.

The new standard is intended to impact the pedestrian lower on the shin which in practice does less damage to the individual but also causes them to fall forward towards the vehicle. The second purpose is the shape is designed to either cast them off to the side of the vehicle or gather them in the center of the vehicle where there are also changes to the hood allowing for impact zones that are designed to decellerate the pedestrian on impact by collapsing (bowing). Hence the higher rise to the hood.
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Old 05-14-2013, 01:17 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by talon90 View Post
There are two aspects to the impact law. The first is intended to have the lowest point of impact below the knees of the pedestrian. With older (higher large protruding front bumper vehicles) the impact tends to fracture the knee or higher up on the torso doing internal damange and risking knocking the person over backward where they get run over by the vehicle.

The new standard is intended to impact the pedestrian lower on the shin which in practice does less damage to the individual but also causes them to fall forward towards the vehicle. The second purpose is the shape is designed to either cast them off to the side of the vehicle or gather them in the center of the vehicle where there are also changes to the hood allowing for impact zones that are designed to decellerate the pedestrian on impact by collapsing (bowing). Hence the higher rise to the hood.
What happens if you get hit by the FedEx delivery truck delivering your Corvette mod pieces? They didn't think of that, did they?
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Old 05-14-2013, 01:20 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by BlueOx View Post
As much as Joe has argued this point for years, there is no evidence this was GM's reasoning. In fact there is evidence, that I have put here numerous times, that GM got rid of the popups for weight, reliability, efficiency and esthetic reasons. The lights were inefficient, looked old fashioned, were too heavy, were unreliable, and they wanted to get rid of them.
The assembly plant had the largest say in the demise of the headlights. There were issues where the painted cover attached to the headlight frame which would cause cracks during the assembly process leading to a lot of rejects. There were also field issues for the motor gears which had been changed mid model year.

Of course, the C6 was slated for entry in to stricter European markets and the pedestrian safety was taken in to consideration because even then, protrusions up above the hood cause injury to pedestrians.

Last but not least was the simple fact that the light given off by the C5 headlamps was horrible. The car was nearly dangerous to drive at night. The HID lighting was such a welcome change.

Last edited by talon90; 05-14-2013 at 01:24 PM.
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Old 05-14-2013, 01:23 PM   #17
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What happens if you get hit by the FedEx delivery truck delivering your Corvette mod pieces? They didn't think of that, did they?
There's really no way the impact with the FedEx truck ends well in any scenario.
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Old 05-14-2013, 02:06 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by talon90 View Post
There are two aspects to the impact law. The first is intended to have the lowest point of impact below the knees of the pedestrian. With older (higher large protruding front bumper vehicles) the impact tends to fracture the knee or higher up on the torso doing internal damange and risking knocking the person over backward where they get run over by the vehicle.

The new standard is intended to impact the pedestrian lower on the shin which in practice does less damage to the individual but also causes them to fall forward towards the vehicle. The second purpose is the shape is designed to either cast them off to the side of the vehicle or gather them in the center of the vehicle where there are also changes to the hood allowing for impact zones that are designed to decellerate the pedestrian on impact by collapsing (bowing). Hence the higher rise to the hood.
Is this the reason the Camaro does not have "fangs" ?
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Old 05-14-2013, 02:14 PM   #19
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...the shape is designed to... cast them off to the side of the vehicle ...
A variation of the cow catcher!
The railroads have been doing this for years!
I'm sure when you get hit by one of these, the fact that it'll cast you off to the side will make everything A-OK!
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Old 05-14-2013, 02:22 PM   #20
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Is this the reason the Camaro does not have "fangs" ?
I have no idea why the Camaro is designed the way it is. What I can tell you is that "Fangs" are not a specific requirement of the standards, just a common way to accomplish one of the goals.

Click the image to open in full size.

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Last edited by talon90; 05-14-2013 at 02:25 PM.
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