johnglenntwo

If the MPG rating would have to take a hit (obviously if they averaged the E85 MPG and E10 MPG together it would) then that alone would blow the idea out of the water as it is delivered out the door.

Maybe they are saving it for the supercharged model? The EPA probably wouldn't even noticed the MPG difference there!

SCM_Crash

Ethanol doesn't ruin engines. Who ever told you that is wrong. There's no documented case where E85 has ruined an engine. In fact, the complete opposite was found to be true. Alcohol actually cleans the engines and has a cooler cleaner burn. There's been MANY ethanol tear-downs and the engine ALWAYS looked better than their E10 and E0 counterparts.

And no, the corn they use for E85/75 is not food-grade corn. It does NOT take away from our food supply. That's another stupid myth. You really think they'd spend a LOT of money growing healthy-to-eat corn just to turn it into fuel? LOL If you do, you're very naive.

drivestwin

Not being difficult, just wanting to know your opinion on the difficulty lawn mowers have with ethanol fuels. I had one die and I suspect it was the ethanol blend fuel I had been using. Just did a search and plenty of sites popped up citing the damage it can cause and to stay away from it.

Then on the food side....really confused here. while I agree that there is some corn that goes directly to your dinner table via frozen or canned corn, doesn't the rest of the corn get used to make sweeteners and such? I think that the second type of corn is in fact the same stuff used for ethanol. Living in Nebraska I am surrounded by corn and only know of three main types(yes I do realize there are tons of hybrids and such); sweet(frozen and canned) white(mostly for food) and the most common yellow that is used to make sweeteners, animal feed and ethanol. feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but that is my understanding.

I know that ethanol has had a impact on the price to feed livestock so I find it hard to believe that ethanol is made from an entirely different corn type. If it is, then it is displacing the food grade corn in the fields, and thus having an impact on food supply.

Other comments on ethanol...and remember that this is coming from someone running E85 in their twin engine front engine dragster(see photos). In a performance application, I love it. You really must keep an eye on system maintainance if trying to use in older carbs/pumps. But otherwise it runs really cool and clean.

One thing that no one really talks about too much is that you need almost twice the fuel volume in comparison to gas so any performance gains are somewhat offset by increased cost.

SCM_Crash

So those three types of corn you're talking about are all food-grade corn. They're all grown for consumption. That means that the pesticides, seeds and soils must be food-grade products. Ethanol can be made from ANY grade of corn or even anything that produces sugar. Sugar cane is technically better for making Ethanol, but I won't get into that. Either way, it's far more expensive to use live-stock feed and/or human-bound corn for Ethanol.

As for the engines and lawn mowers... Most of those were not built with stainless fuel lines. There's a ton of rubber in older lawn mowers. Especially push-type. Of course they're going to have problems. BUT, that's not because of the Ethanol. That's because of the fuel lines getting eaten up. Since 1990, auto manufacturers have used stainless fuel lines so that this doesn't happen. Alcohol itself does NOT hurt the car. In fact, those fuel injection cleaners are alcohol based.

BTW, whenever an older car has shown damage from ethanol blends, the damage was NEVER from the alcohol in the engine. The damage was from components outside the engine that were not ethanol ready. Older cars can simply upgrade their fuel pump, carb/injectors and fuel lines and they'll run E85 without risk of damage (as long as they're tuned correctly).

There's a lot of hoopla about Alcohol being corrosive because people aren't completely reading what is actually happening. They're reading a few key words in articles and what-not about what E85 does. This is how misinformation gets spread around. People in other regions of the world that have access to E85 run on LSx platforms do all the time. I remember there was a guy in NL that was running E85 in his LS1 Trans Am. No problems whatsoever and he was even running cat-less. He said it smelled like pop-corn. LOL

It's a scare tactic. Believe me.

BTW, the car I learned how to drive on in 1999, a 1985 Corvette, had NO problems running on E10 for every single year it was around after 1990. NO issues. It's just malarky. People who have engine troubles like to blame anyone but themselves.

drivestwin

So now I'm confused on your stance....does it take from our food supply or not?

I don't get your reference to the pesticides soil comment.....you are losing me.

I do agree that there may be cheaper ways to make ethanol that are better for the end cost of consumers of both food and fuel.


One experience that opened my eyes on E-10 a bit comes from when a car that came into a dealer I used to work at. The car was not running well..no power, would barely stay running. We tested the alcohol percent and it was over 80%......he bought E10. Are the current blends formulated to stop this from happening?

Bottom line is ethanol has a place in cars that are designed for it.

Curtis A. Franz

I need to see proof on that one. While the octane is there the BTU's are not...both due to ethanol containing some oxygen.

SCM_Crash

The ethanol source is mixed at the moment. We get a lot of our ethanol from Brazil. That means it's NOT coming from our food supply. The ethanol we don't import isn't supposed to come from our food supply. I have no evidence to support that statement though. And "farmers" are hiking up the prices on corn because they can state that it costs them more to have to grow more. There's no evidence of that either. Hiking up the price on corn was something they always wanted to do and the farmers' statements were debunked many years ago. That's why the cost of corn dropped again. They were looking for an excuse. You don't see them refusing to grow it and sell it for ethanol, do you?

What I meant about the soil and pesticides is that when you have food slated for consumption, the soil and water the food grows from, and pesticides that protect the food from being eaten by bugs has to be safe to "us". Whereas, you can use lower grade water and soil and cheaper pesticides to grow plants slated for combustion, rather than ingestion. That makes things far cheaper. There's different grades of food out there. Lowest grade (less or unhealthy) food still makes alcohol. (That's the point)

The whole idea that E10 causes engine troubles has been debunked for 30 years. California has been 100% E10 for 30 years and our cars aren't having problems due to E10. Sorry, but anyone who tells you otherwise is simply lying or got their information wrong as well. My 1990 300zx wasn't even built to handle E10 and it ran like a champ on it. My 1979 Bonneville NEVER had any trouble running on it. We had that car since it was new until 2002. NEVER had any trouble and that car was DEFINITELY not meant for E10. With 460K miles on the original engine, we finally retired after I bought my 1997 Trans Am. That LT1 ran like a champ on E10 as well. No issues whatsoever. Then I bought a 2002 Trans Am and guess what... no issues. Same with my 02 Z06 and 03 Z06.

If there was actually a problem with E10, there'd be a mass class-action lawsuit against the state of California for hurting our cars with E10.

johnglenntwo

680HP was conservative based on the aforementioned NA C7 LT1 testing that was said to make 40hp in the right weather. Warmer weather is were it shines. The ZR1 at WOT is using ~15% (~10.3AFR vs 12.5AFR) more gas then a NA car would making the same HP. E85 requires ~30% more!

Again, it can be made from: American Le Mans Series Ferraris switch to cellulosic E85

Another advantage is a highly effective octane rating, reducing engine heat and wear, and increasing engine performance if an engine is tuned to run on E85, or able to automatically adjust to higher octane fuel.

Using E85 in a gasoline engine has the drawback of achieving lower fuel economy, as more fuel is needed per unit air (stoichiometric ratio) to run the engine in comparison with gasoline. The additional ethanol required for a stoichiometric fuel ratio helps compensate for lack of energy provided by ethanol's lower heating value (LHV), which is lower than the LHV of gasoline.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85

JoesC5

Interesting read on "importing" ethanol from Brazil. Appears that you chose to ignore the fact that we also "export" ethanol.

http://cornandsoybeandigest.com/ener...nol-and-brazil

http://www.greentechmedia.com/articl...ff-on-ethanol/

http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-dru...der-we-thought

http://ethanolproducer.com/articles/...thanol-imports

http://oilprice.com/Alternative-Ener...d-Ethanol.html

SCM_Crash

You're right. Those are interesting reads. I'll have to go through those when I have more time.

CPhelps

This link from GM's media site suggests both the LV3 and L83 are flex fuel. Of special interest is the power/tq numbers in E85

LV3: 285 hp/305 lb-ft on gas; 297 hp/330 lb-ft on E85
L83: 355 hp/383 lb-ft on gas; 380 hp/416 lb-ft on E85

JoesC5

This is the only link I found, dated today, and it doesn't show anything on E85 horsepower, etc.

http://media.gm.com/content/media/us...v6-torque.html

This link doesn't say anything about FlexFuel and doesn't show the numbers you show.

http://media.gm.com/content/media/us...rado/2014.html



Can you provide the link where you found the E85 info?

EDIT: I found the link you were referring to.

http://media.gm.com/content/media/us...2014.tab1.html

My bad on the E85 info.

CPhelps

Sorry, totally spaced on the copy paste action!
http://media.gm.com/content/media/us...2014.tab1.html was the link I was referring to, looks like you found it.

LT1_E85_Corvette

My LS3 has been running on E85 for over 13 months, on a completely factory/stock fuel system. ZERO issues, and I dyno'd 420whp/420tq with ZERO mods other than E85

Results don't lie for the naysayers

HurricaneRN

13 months, that's a really long time... we should probably re-write what we know about chemistry immediately.

LT1_E85_Corvette

At least I have real world data to share

E85 is a wonderful fuel alternative, and it's cheaper than standard gas and you net race fuel results. I recently pulled out my injectors, and checked my spark plugs and they look polished. Car is really happy with E85, and so are my track times.

With a 2.2 sixty foot I ran a 11.97 @ 122 mph. Not bad for a tuned E85 car

DREAMERAK

Hmmm, a 25hp gain on a 5.3L truck engine? I wonder what a LT1 could do?

HurricaneRN

I'm just givin ya a hard time, as long as the non metal parts are stable in ethanol the only worry is slow erosion of metal from rust (since the ethanol will attract and carry water) and the light acid bath (that "polishes" and removes oxidative material). Would just rather have the billions spent subsidizing ethanol be used to research battery tech or fuel cell membranes. Something that has a viable end game (ie not combustion). The faster we can transition to the bulk of transportation to electric power the less time the lawmakers will have to whittle away at displacement and power.

johnglenntwo

Again, a guy testing the LT1 last year said it could make 40hp depending on the weather. And E85 is going to shine in warmer weather. He also said its fuel system was good for 4-digits, I beleave. And LS3_E85_Corvette originally got 40HP with his stock LS3.

Why do we have to keep catching people up on this subject?

johnglenntwo

Thanks for shutting down Joe the devil's advocate here!

The C7 is going to fly at The Ring!