Bash updates and info
04-27-2013, 04:44 AM
#281
Safety Car
^The lack of roll hoops is probably the most worrisome.
See for example this track event's requirements for safety:
Required Safety Equipment:
All Cars:
1. Seat belt in good working order.
2. Snell 2000 (Snell 2005 for Time Trial & Race) or better helmet.
3. Gloves - leather or Nomex. No holes or synthetic materials.
4. Natural fiber clothing extending from neck to wrist & ankles.
5. Convertibles: Must have Roll bars extending 2” above top of helmet. “Factory” or “street” bars acceptable for Street Performance group only."
http://www.motorsportreg.com/index.c...9#.UXuPlbXUc7c
See for example this track event's requirements for safety:
Required Safety Equipment:
All Cars:
1. Seat belt in good working order.
2. Snell 2000 (Snell 2005 for Time Trial & Race) or better helmet.
3. Gloves - leather or Nomex. No holes or synthetic materials.
4. Natural fiber clothing extending from neck to wrist & ankles.
5. Convertibles: Must have Roll bars extending 2” above top of helmet. “Factory” or “street” bars acceptable for Street Performance group only."
http://www.motorsportreg.com/index.c...9#.UXuPlbXUc7c
04-27-2013, 06:30 AM
#282
Drifting
04-27-2013, 06:45 AM
#283
Great info! Cant wait to get mine!!!
we need a link or something that is easier to read.
04-27-2013, 07:17 AM
#285
What percentage would you give to the rear end? Is it not about twenty percent of the total body design? Are we to really debate that number - pick whatever you want - it's very significant either way in terms of overall design. 
C6 Z06 gained about 50 lbs over C5Z but added:
- Bigger engine 5.7 to 7.0
- 100HP
- Wider and taller wheels and tires
- Dry sump oiling system
- Bigger brakes two more calipers for front and rear
- more sound deadening.
- Wider body
- Full Glass hatch
All this was added without huge weight gains due to AL frame and a few CF body panels and structural segments and the C6s decrease in overall length by almost 12" compared to the C5.
So feature wise there was a huge improvement with the smallest of weight gains. Now that the base C7 already has an Aluminum frame and Carbon Fiber body panels BUT COMES IN HEAVIER so what is in store for the C7 Z06?
If they add bigger wheels, tires, brakes, larger oiling system possible engine weight from either displacement (fingers crossed) or a Supercharger where are they going to remove weight from? The Aluminum frame is already in place as well as Carbon Fiber parts. And if I am not mistaken the C6 and C7 are roughly the same length - there is definitely not a 12" difference for sure. Maybe they make more fenders in CF but that will shave maybe 30-80lbs max.
So in all probability due to starting with a heavier base C7 that already has an Aluminum frame and Carbon Fiber parts the C7 Z06 may not only be heavier than the C6 Z06 but may be heavier than the BASE MODEL C7.
If it comes in 3450lbs or more it is going to be contrary to it's original mission statement to be the lighter faster hard core Corvette.
I am sure they will have snazzy marketing that will tout all the new features of the C7 Z06 - but that doesn't mean we should eat it up. The possibility of a 3500lb +/- Z06 upsets me to the core.
C6 Z06 gained about 50 lbs over C5Z but added:
- Bigger engine 5.7 to 7.0
- 100HP
- Wider and taller wheels and tires
- Dry sump oiling system
- Bigger brakes two more calipers for front and rear
- more sound deadening.
- Wider body
- Full Glass hatch
All this was added without huge weight gains due to AL frame and a few CF body panels and structural segments and the C6s decrease in overall length by almost 12" compared to the C5.
So feature wise there was a huge improvement with the smallest of weight gains. Now that the base C7 already has an Aluminum frame and Carbon Fiber body panels BUT COMES IN HEAVIER so what is in store for the C7 Z06?
If they add bigger wheels, tires, brakes, larger oiling system possible engine weight from either displacement (fingers crossed) or a Supercharger where are they going to remove weight from? The Aluminum frame is already in place as well as Carbon Fiber parts. And if I am not mistaken the C6 and C7 are roughly the same length - there is definitely not a 12" difference for sure. Maybe they make more fenders in CF but that will shave maybe 30-80lbs max.
So in all probability due to starting with a heavier base C7 that already has an Aluminum frame and Carbon Fiber parts the C7 Z06 may not only be heavier than the C6 Z06 but may be heavier than the BASE MODEL C7.
If it comes in 3450lbs or more it is going to be contrary to it's original mission statement to be the lighter faster hard core Corvette.
I am sure they will have snazzy marketing that will tout all the new features of the C7 Z06 - but that doesn't mean we should eat it up. The possibility of a 3500lb +/- Z06 upsets me to the core.
Have you not noticed the feature enhancement in the C7? Take a look at the photo of the sign on weight. Holding weight effectively flat was impressive given the items that added weight if you ask me.
04-27-2013, 08:04 AM
#286
So far:
Black z51
2lt
Mag suspension
Nav
Black wheels
Exhaust is all I need to know about this point. Just trying to build a performance model that will still have resale value.
In your opinion, did the suede inserts add much?
04-27-2013, 08:33 AM
#287
Exactly. The benefits of what was added was deemed more important than the extra weight. Benefits should prove to outweigh the costs once we see the performance stats...if a little weight had to be added, I am sure the engineers scrutinized every kilo before it was added to the car.
04-27-2013, 08:36 AM
#288
Just a warning.
04-27-2013, 10:02 AM
#290
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Did you lightweight bitching guys not see this? Everywhere I see weight additions, I see a significant performance increase.
MAYBE the steel torque tube and 5 lbs of valvetrain for AFM reasons is a takeaway, but everything else makes it a better car than the C6 - even the C6 Z06.
Improved structural stiffness, handling, acceleration, horsepower, economy... if the power to weight ratio gets better, what the hell does it matter what the scale says?
You're arguing about something that does not matter. You want a car that sacrifices everything for weight? But an Elise. Enjoy that Singer sewing machine of a motor they put in there.
Corvette has never been a featherweight.
04-27-2013, 10:11 AM
#291
Drifting
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Some history & Comments
From All Corvettes are Red
When the C5 was being developed, Dave Hill decided to put a dollar value on mass. His systems engineer, Tadge Juechter, put together a committe and worked it out. "The bottom line is that mass equals money." Based on Tadge's work, Hill gave the design team the freedom to spend $10 per kilogram to rationalize mass reductions. That's not in today's money!!! The C5 went on a real weight watch from that point on.
This is not from the above source.
When the C6 was being developed Hill established a policy of "No Take Aways." Weight increase was considered a take away.
Tadge's original work showed that an increase in weight reduced performance, reduced economy and reduced sales by a measured dollar amount.
I don't know if the Corvette Team used a similar approach in designing the C7.
IMHO, the way Team Corvette has handled the information release on weight, power, economy, and performance has caused a great deal of the confusion and angst in the forum.
When the C5 was being developed, Dave Hill decided to put a dollar value on mass. His systems engineer, Tadge Juechter, put together a committe and worked it out. "The bottom line is that mass equals money." Based on Tadge's work, Hill gave the design team the freedom to spend $10 per kilogram to rationalize mass reductions. That's not in today's money!!! The C5 went on a real weight watch from that point on.
This is not from the above source.
When the C6 was being developed Hill established a policy of "No Take Aways." Weight increase was considered a take away.
Tadge's original work showed that an increase in weight reduced performance, reduced economy and reduced sales by a measured dollar amount.
I don't know if the Corvette Team used a similar approach in designing the C7.
IMHO, the way Team Corvette has handled the information release on weight, power, economy, and performance has caused a great deal of the confusion and angst in the forum.
04-27-2013, 10:13 AM
#292
Did you lightweight bitching guys not see this? Everywhere I see weight additions, I see a significant performance increase.
MAYBE the steel torque tube and 5 lbs of valvetrain for AFM reasons is a takeaway, but everything else makes it a better car than the C6 - even the C6 Z06.
Improved structural stiffness, handling, acceleration, horsepower, economy... if the power to weight ratio gets better, what the hell does it matter what the scale says?
You're arguing about something that does not matter. You want a car that sacrifices everything for weight? But an Elise. Enjoy that Singer sewing machine of a motor they put in there.
Corvette has never been a featherweight.
MAYBE the steel torque tube and 5 lbs of valvetrain for AFM reasons is a takeaway, but everything else makes it a better car than the C6 - even the C6 Z06.
Improved structural stiffness, handling, acceleration, horsepower, economy... if the power to weight ratio gets better, what the hell does it matter what the scale says?
You're arguing about something that does not matter. You want a car that sacrifices everything for weight? But an Elise. Enjoy that Singer sewing machine of a motor they put in there.
Corvette has never been a featherweight.
04-27-2013, 10:20 AM
#293
Team Owner
Did you lightweight bitching guys not see this? Everywhere I see weight additions, I see a significant performance increase.
MAYBE the steel torque tube and 5 lbs of valvetrain for AFM reasons is a takeaway, but everything else makes it a better car than the C6 - even the C6 Z06.
Improved structural stiffness, handling, acceleration, horsepower, economy... if the power to weight ratio gets better, what the hell does it matter what the scale says?
You're arguing about something that does not matter. You want a car that sacrifices everything for weight? But an Elise. Enjoy that Singer sewing machine of a motor they put in there.
Corvette has never been a featherweight.
MAYBE the steel torque tube and 5 lbs of valvetrain for AFM reasons is a takeaway, but everything else makes it a better car than the C6 - even the C6 Z06.
Improved structural stiffness, handling, acceleration, horsepower, economy... if the power to weight ratio gets better, what the hell does it matter what the scale says?
You're arguing about something that does not matter. You want a car that sacrifices everything for weight? But an Elise. Enjoy that Singer sewing machine of a motor they put in there.
Corvette has never been a featherweight.
I can drive my 505 HP C6 with it's 18 gallon gas tank 420 miles between refueling when on a road trip and get fuel before I'm running on fumes(3 gallons still in the tank).
Seems to me, with all the money spent to achieve greater gas mileage, and weight added to the car to achieve that goal, that a smaller, lighter gas tank would be in order.
I would think that 10% smaller gas tank would work if the C7's gas mileage is improved by 10%. Instead of a 3 pound gain, there would be a 6 pound loss in curb weight. 9 pound delta.
Last edited by JoesC5; 04-27-2013 at 10:23 AM.
04-27-2013, 10:28 AM
#294
Le Mans Master
Did you lightweight bitching guys not see this? Everywhere I see weight additions, I see a significant performance increase.
MAYBE the steel torque tube and 5 lbs of valvetrain for AFM reasons is a takeaway, but everything else makes it a better car than the C6 - even the C6 Z06.
Improved structural stiffness, handling, acceleration, horsepower, economy... if the power to weight ratio gets better, what the hell does it matter what the scale says?
You're arguing about something that does not matter. You want a car that sacrifices everything for weight? But an Elise. Enjoy that Singer sewing machine of a motor they put in there.
Corvette has never been a featherweight.
MAYBE the steel torque tube and 5 lbs of valvetrain for AFM reasons is a takeaway, but everything else makes it a better car than the C6 - even the C6 Z06.
Improved structural stiffness, handling, acceleration, horsepower, economy... if the power to weight ratio gets better, what the hell does it matter what the scale says?
You're arguing about something that does not matter. You want a car that sacrifices everything for weight? But an Elise. Enjoy that Singer sewing machine of a motor they put in there.
Corvette has never been a featherweight.
As far as the future (Z06/ZR1) variants, keep in mind that there are plenty of things they can do here. For example the hatch and front clip could go CF. If they delete AFM in the (LT4)? motor, they could go w/ alum. torque tube, single mass fw. If they go fixed roof, they could also further reduce mass on the frame. All to trade off for the parts that will be beefed up. I'll bet the high performance(track) car will weight about the same if not a pound or two less. IMHO
Just examples, but putting these things on the base car would really just penalize ($$$) the many of us that don't really need/care/want it.
04-27-2013, 10:39 AM
#295
04-27-2013, 10:40 AM
#296
Safety Car
Well a new GT3RS comes in at 2998 pounds with 500hp out of a 4.0 six cylinder. Granted it is a 150k which means they can use more expensive and lightweight materials but it does say a lot for their engineering techniques.
04-27-2013, 10:44 AM
#297
Le Mans Master
04-27-2013, 10:44 AM
#298
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GM says they look at every gram of added weight and it has to be proven to be needed before it's added. Tell me, what performance gains are achieved by adding a larger 3 lb gas tank(2)?
I can drive my 505 HP C6 with it's 18 gallon gas tank 420 miles between refueling when on a road trip and get fuel before I'm running on fumes(3 gallons still in the tank).
Seems to me, with all the money spent to achieve greater gas mileage, and weight added to the car to achieve that goal, that a smaller, lighter gas tank would be in order.
I would think that 10% smaller gas tank would work if the C7's gas mileage is improved by 10%. Instead of a 3 pound gain, there would be a 6 pound loss in curb weight. 9 pound delta.
I can drive my 505 HP C6 with it's 18 gallon gas tank 420 miles between refueling when on a road trip and get fuel before I'm running on fumes(3 gallons still in the tank).
Seems to me, with all the money spent to achieve greater gas mileage, and weight added to the car to achieve that goal, that a smaller, lighter gas tank would be in order.
I would think that 10% smaller gas tank would work if the C7's gas mileage is improved by 10%. Instead of a 3 pound gain, there would be a 6 pound loss in curb weight. 9 pound delta.
Why is that gas tank larger? Just because the engineers thought you could use a little more fuel?
I'm betting not. I'm betting it had more to do with redesigning where the tank fit into the structure of the car, weight distribution and center of mass. The extra mass and extra capacity? Part of the trade off.
If all you look at is the extra weight, then it's a reason to complain about something. If you look at the overall package and what is delivered with that change to the gas tank, there is more to it than a little more fuel and a little more weight.
As I said above - get yourself an Elise - they have a thimble for a fuel tank. Colin Chapman's famous added lightness. They also have enough luggage space for two cups of coffee and all the amenities of a phone booth. Nothing against a lightweight car like the Lotus, but it ain't a Corvette.
04-27-2013, 10:55 AM
#300
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For the prices of a Corvette, a CTS and a Silverado combined, it could be milled from a solid block of Unobtainium.