Facts from inside GM about LT1, the hp, motors coming, etc
01-14-2013, 09:42 PM
#1
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
Facts from inside GM about LT1, the hp, motors coming, etc
I got into a bunch of stuff online...talkin to people, etc. I found some good info, much of what's not been stated anywhere, and it's 110% directly from an engineer in GM....no question.
A bunch of facts I learned...
Tunability and mods
1. The C7 ECM will not be tunable for aftermarket mods. The world of computer people will say...hahaha...but, they seem pretty damn certain. But, they elaborated to say...you won't need nor want to...hmmm
2. The ecm will automatically adapt to basic modifications to make optimum output...intake, headers, etc.
3. The ecm can adapt and tune itself to optimum standards for a cam as well...but duration and lift max couldn't be stated
4. So how will it do that...it appears by all indications that these cars will monitor egt, and seemingly have a wideband on board. Sound crazy? Some stand alone's have had self tuning features that worked so well, I was shocked. Ben Strader showed a Motec do it with only one cell filled as a reference. It's self tune was only 7whp and 10wtq off from a full dyno tune....that was in like 2002.
5. Put the wrong aftermarket part on the car and it goes into 4 cylinder mode until the dealership reconnects it via encrypted link, or you take the part off.
Comparison to LS3
1. Aside from internal short block geometry (VOLUME/LITER/SPACE/BORE), nothing is the same. They felt the short block was adequate for the head design/mass flow targets, while providing longevity and reliability.
I have a ton of technical insight about piston design, taper, analysis about ringland longevity, etc....if anyone is interested. For most...they don't care...lol.
The literal statement from the engineer was... "if LS3 had a wet dream, its wet dream be the 2014 LT1"
The thing all of you...NEARLY all of you are missing here, is that PEAK POWER, doesn't mean anything! NOTHING. It's how the engine makes power across the entire curve that will matter.
About the HP ratings...
A certain individual made some intent speculations stating we need a 500hp base Corvette, a 600+hp Z06 and a 700+ ZR1 and the engineer responded..."nice estimates"....hard to say what it meant, but the way he stated it in the post was interesting.
It was directly stated that E85 takes this motor up a big notch...period. I don't want to start hearing people spouting off what they believe/think they know about E85. As a guy who tuned engine management on E85 from the day it went to market, I will say I am exhausted arguing with people over ethanol.
The combustion engineer said 40-80hp over its rating on gasoline when running E85...that's all he could say. +4, -4 degrees of ignition timing, changes in cam timing...the end.
-He confirmed 450hp is NOT the number...it IS HIGHER FOR SURE.
-He confirmed this motor matches the LS7 to 4000 rpm.
-He confirmed there are multiple other versions of the LT1 underway...and it has....drum roll....variable VALVE lift and/or duration. It's a cam within a cam design that can change lobes...but he didn't state how. I can tell you from my involvement with Honda's...people make jokes about VTEC, but if you felt a 1.8 liter DOHC VTEC engine cross over cam lobes with a GT35 turbo bolted to it...you'd never doubt how damn good it is.
-To further talk about how much torque this engine makes...they have had issues building an automatic transmission to hold it. Don't know if this is good or bad for the auto guys...but tells you why they definitely have that standard auto tranny cooler in the C7...it needs it!
Some specific statements were made...and I'd like to repeat them...these are about this Corvette...and apparently the monstrosity to come...
"GM knows what it is doing they heard the call for more performance/output. It is there and more is coming. I cannot and will not comment further."
"The mere shape & contour and flatness of the oil gallery is a clue for this engine true purpose will be going forward. We are entering a new realm of power concerning OEM performance."
In reference of a car to come...ZR1 or Z06
"the power level is a first in mass production and you will have to sign additional paper work during purchasing the vehicle and just maybe mandatory performance classes may be required. "
"Performance isn't dying and isn't peaking.... the 2014 LT1 true intention isn't Normal Aspiration."
"..we determine that we could trick the 376cu in engine into thinking its a big block chevy this was possibly only by VVT. So we ended up with a small block with a identity problem that thinks its a big block chevy in torque"
"Those pesky other "supercars" are no longer an issue. The GAP is significant. And room left on the table for you gear heads. Your welcome. So with that said, surprise awaits. I cannot and will elaborate more."
"The only thing that is off limits in the E92 ECM is Fuel tables and High Pressure Solenoid Fuel tables. There isn't really any bad news given, this is going to be a fun engine for the aftermarket and regular consumer. Everyone will win in the end."
"The [LT1] heads design and layout are a give away for what this engine true intentions are and you would definitely want to save your money for the replacement of the C6 z06. As that engine is down RIGHT BRUTAL."
I'll finish with a statement that made me really pumped. I read this, and was like....there it is...the money shot...
The engineer stated that the upcoming motor they are testing now has the ability to use it's variable cam to allow the motor to cycle air with no load. He then stated it also can perform a function that allows a mild combustion cycle to occur in the exhaust manifold for a reason he couldn't talk about!.....If any of you tune cars...you KNOW what that means...YOU KNOW!
That's called anti-lag....i.e. developed by rally racers years back to build boost while kicking the clutch in a turn. Turbo's only build boost under load...unless you tune in anti-lag.
I tuned this into drag cars for years...I knew instantly! I'd retard ignition timing 40 degrees then dump big fuel mixed with a two step...shoots flames out the exhausts and will build huge boost on the line. This sounds violent in a wicked car....generally used for launch control! BAM! Turbo Corvette!!!
He also spoke about Koenigsegg...uses a twin turbo that makes gross power on E85 versus gasoline...found it interesting he brought up the Koenigsegg. Turbo ZR1 is comin...I called this LONG ago...
A bunch of facts I learned...
Tunability and mods
1. The C7 ECM will not be tunable for aftermarket mods. The world of computer people will say...hahaha...but, they seem pretty damn certain. But, they elaborated to say...you won't need nor want to...hmmm
2. The ecm will automatically adapt to basic modifications to make optimum output...intake, headers, etc.
3. The ecm can adapt and tune itself to optimum standards for a cam as well...but duration and lift max couldn't be stated
4. So how will it do that...it appears by all indications that these cars will monitor egt, and seemingly have a wideband on board. Sound crazy? Some stand alone's have had self tuning features that worked so well, I was shocked. Ben Strader showed a Motec do it with only one cell filled as a reference. It's self tune was only 7whp and 10wtq off from a full dyno tune....that was in like 2002.
5. Put the wrong aftermarket part on the car and it goes into 4 cylinder mode until the dealership reconnects it via encrypted link, or you take the part off.
Comparison to LS3
1. Aside from internal short block geometry (VOLUME/LITER/SPACE/BORE), nothing is the same. They felt the short block was adequate for the head design/mass flow targets, while providing longevity and reliability.
I have a ton of technical insight about piston design, taper, analysis about ringland longevity, etc....if anyone is interested. For most...they don't care...lol.
The literal statement from the engineer was... "if LS3 had a wet dream, its wet dream be the 2014 LT1"
The thing all of you...NEARLY all of you are missing here, is that PEAK POWER, doesn't mean anything! NOTHING. It's how the engine makes power across the entire curve that will matter.
About the HP ratings...
A certain individual made some intent speculations stating we need a 500hp base Corvette, a 600+hp Z06 and a 700+ ZR1 and the engineer responded..."nice estimates"....hard to say what it meant, but the way he stated it in the post was interesting.
It was directly stated that E85 takes this motor up a big notch...period. I don't want to start hearing people spouting off what they believe/think they know about E85. As a guy who tuned engine management on E85 from the day it went to market, I will say I am exhausted arguing with people over ethanol.
The combustion engineer said 40-80hp over its rating on gasoline when running E85...that's all he could say. +4, -4 degrees of ignition timing, changes in cam timing...the end.
-He confirmed 450hp is NOT the number...it IS HIGHER FOR SURE.
-He confirmed this motor matches the LS7 to 4000 rpm.
-He confirmed there are multiple other versions of the LT1 underway...and it has....drum roll....variable VALVE lift and/or duration. It's a cam within a cam design that can change lobes...but he didn't state how. I can tell you from my involvement with Honda's...people make jokes about VTEC, but if you felt a 1.8 liter DOHC VTEC engine cross over cam lobes with a GT35 turbo bolted to it...you'd never doubt how damn good it is.
-To further talk about how much torque this engine makes...they have had issues building an automatic transmission to hold it. Don't know if this is good or bad for the auto guys...but tells you why they definitely have that standard auto tranny cooler in the C7...it needs it!
Some specific statements were made...and I'd like to repeat them...these are about this Corvette...and apparently the monstrosity to come...
"GM knows what it is doing they heard the call for more performance/output. It is there and more is coming. I cannot and will not comment further."
"The mere shape & contour and flatness of the oil gallery is a clue for this engine true purpose will be going forward. We are entering a new realm of power concerning OEM performance."
In reference of a car to come...ZR1 or Z06
"the power level is a first in mass production and you will have to sign additional paper work during purchasing the vehicle and just maybe mandatory performance classes may be required. "
"Performance isn't dying and isn't peaking.... the 2014 LT1 true intention isn't Normal Aspiration."
"..we determine that we could trick the 376cu in engine into thinking its a big block chevy this was possibly only by VVT. So we ended up with a small block with a identity problem that thinks its a big block chevy in torque"
"Those pesky other "supercars" are no longer an issue. The GAP is significant. And room left on the table for you gear heads. Your welcome. So with that said, surprise awaits. I cannot and will elaborate more."
"The only thing that is off limits in the E92 ECM is Fuel tables and High Pressure Solenoid Fuel tables. There isn't really any bad news given, this is going to be a fun engine for the aftermarket and regular consumer. Everyone will win in the end."
"The [LT1] heads design and layout are a give away for what this engine true intentions are and you would definitely want to save your money for the replacement of the C6 z06. As that engine is down RIGHT BRUTAL."
I'll finish with a statement that made me really pumped. I read this, and was like....there it is...the money shot...
The engineer stated that the upcoming motor they are testing now has the ability to use it's variable cam to allow the motor to cycle air with no load. He then stated it also can perform a function that allows a mild combustion cycle to occur in the exhaust manifold for a reason he couldn't talk about!.....If any of you tune cars...you KNOW what that means...YOU KNOW!
That's called anti-lag....i.e. developed by rally racers years back to build boost while kicking the clutch in a turn. Turbo's only build boost under load...unless you tune in anti-lag.
I tuned this into drag cars for years...I knew instantly! I'd retard ignition timing 40 degrees then dump big fuel mixed with a two step...shoots flames out the exhausts and will build huge boost on the line. This sounds violent in a wicked car....generally used for launch control! BAM! Turbo Corvette!!!
He also spoke about Koenigsegg...uses a twin turbo that makes gross power on E85 versus gasoline...found it interesting he brought up the Koenigsegg. Turbo ZR1 is comin...I called this LONG ago...
Last edited by RC000E; 01-14-2013 at 10:15 PM.
01-14-2013, 09:51 PM
#2
Burning Brakes
Well, if there's any truth to any of that, it sounds like the Corvette Z06/ZR1 future is a TURBO. The 6.2L LT1 may be as big as the C7 engine ever gets, or smaller versions may be matched to the turbo.
Another big change for sure. Wonder how the concept of a turbo will be accepted in a Vette?
Another big change for sure. Wonder how the concept of a turbo will be accepted in a Vette?
01-14-2013, 09:54 PM
#3
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
I have to add, there is a H.O. LS7 still inside being worked on...the rumor is, it's a "Plan B"
Beside that, they couldn't not confirm displacements, only that a "little sister" and a "BIG BROTHER" of the LT1 is coming. LT4 was mentioned...and was semi confirmed. My guess felt like there could be a supercharged Z06 and a turbo'd ZR1...LT4 supercharged...LT5 turbo'd.
BTW...all these statements were authorized from inside GM and they are truth as of last month...
I could elaborate on a whole bunch of stuff I read in reference to piston crown design, cooling, etc...that certainly suggests that forced induction is the intent.
Beside that, they couldn't not confirm displacements, only that a "little sister" and a "BIG BROTHER" of the LT1 is coming. LT4 was mentioned...and was semi confirmed. My guess felt like there could be a supercharged Z06 and a turbo'd ZR1...LT4 supercharged...LT5 turbo'd.
BTW...all these statements were authorized from inside GM and they are truth as of last month...
I could elaborate on a whole bunch of stuff I read in reference to piston crown design, cooling, etc...that certainly suggests that forced induction is the intent.
Last edited by RC000E; 01-14-2013 at 09:57 PM.
01-14-2013, 09:58 PM
#6
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
The stuff I posted so far, yes. I stopped to post this for the guys over here, because it was a ton to read though. I felt like, with all the hate over here, there needed to be a boost of info that revealed what a monster I think this car is going to be. I've been sent some other material here via request though, and I'm going through it.
01-14-2013, 10:01 PM
#7
Burning Brakes
01-14-2013, 10:06 PM
#10
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Dec 2004
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St. Jude Donor '06-'08-'10-'11-'12-'13 '14-'15-'16-'17-'18-'19
I'm very torn concerning Bigg_Gunz, while he appears to be a very intelligent guy, his poor command of the english language, syntax and all, doesn't give me a warm fuzzy. Especially since he claimed to be USA born and bred. There is a lot of conflicting info about him. But RC000E is correct, that thread was huge and what he boiled it down to here, is my take also on what was discussed.
01-14-2013, 10:09 PM
#11
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
As I said...this was from LS1tech and I compiled a bunch from the locked thread, which many guys here don't read. So it was a benefit to compile that for people here, not have a bunch of "know very little about anything" types to come in in attempt to discredit what was stated. The content was actual and fact based...there is NO question.
Vetteman...your posts are absolutely speculative crap...and you don't have the first hands on experience with E85, nor have you any experience with E85 in the C7 Corvette. So, why are you speaking?
Vetteman...your posts are absolutely speculative crap...and you don't have the first hands on experience with E85, nor have you any experience with E85 in the C7 Corvette. So, why are you speaking?
01-14-2013, 10:12 PM
#13
Burning Brakes
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I'm very torn concerning Bigg_Gunz, while he appears to be a very intelligent guy, his poor command of the english language, syntax and all, doesn't give me a warm fuzzy. Especially since he claimed to be USA born and bred. There is a lot of conflicting info about him. But RC000E is correct, that thread was huge and what he boiled it down to here, is my take also on what was discussed.
01-14-2013, 10:13 PM
#14
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
I'm very torn concerning Bigg_Gunz, while he appears to be a very intelligent guy, his poor command of the english language, syntax and all, doesn't give me a warm fuzzy. Especially since he claimed to be USA born and bred. There is a lot of conflicting info about him. But RC000E is correct, that thread was huge and what he boiled it down to here, is my take also on what was discussed.
The "controversy" over that guy is literally based upon random ignorance. Most of those people in there couldn't even understand what the man was talking about, and like Vetteman up there, jumps to conclusions based upon what he read in wikipedia.
I've built 4cylinders with over 900 horsepower to wheels...I know when a guy is full of **** and when he isn't...that guy spilled a lot of facts to the people over there, and they had this bs attitude about it. I'm attempting to contact him further at this time.
01-14-2013, 10:14 PM
#15
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
It amazes me that people put some validity in this type of statement. The guy was posting books over there...and you're going to scrutinize grammar or typing errors. He's not a f*ckin administrative assistant or transcriptionist....
01-14-2013, 10:16 PM
#16
Burning Brakes
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01-14-2013, 10:19 PM
#19
Drifting
RC that thread on LS1tech is insanely long and I read through it also. I think you've done a fine job providing the relevant info from it here. I also want to say that I really enjoyed your GT5 ring comparison video as well. There is so much junk being posted in C7 right now it's good to see someone putting forth effort to keep us optimistic about all the unknown details of the C7. Keep up the good work.