Why there may be no wide body C7...
12-30-2012, 08:49 PM
#21
Le Mans Master
12-30-2012, 08:55 PM
#22
Team Owner
Well, I'm glad to see that in the last sentence you actually agree with me, at least a little. And I agree with you a little in that there is no doubt that other factors are involved. There will be a similar splitter in some version of the C7...like the one we have seen on the C7 in many images, for instance.
Where did you get that information on the C6Z06 from GM? Send me the link please. I'd love to read it.
Wider fenders are there by law? Show me that one too, please. You can look at this video of Tom Peters (4:25) where he talks about the ZL1 tires that stick outside the body...so GM is breaking the law?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kH5P7fjt7BI
I know the lower scoops are to provide brake cooling and the C7Z (at least) appears to have them. I'm talking about the upper rear fender vents/scoops on the C7.
Where did you get that information on the C6Z06 from GM? Send me the link please. I'd love to read it.
Wider fenders are there by law? Show me that one too, please. You can look at this video of Tom Peters (4:25) where he talks about the ZL1 tires that stick outside the body...so GM is breaking the law?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kH5P7fjt7BI
I know the lower scoops are to provide brake cooling and the C7Z (at least) appears to have them. I'm talking about the upper rear fender vents/scoops on the C7.
Can't speak for other states, but in PA inspection laws require the fender to cover the tire.
12-30-2012, 09:26 PM
#25
Melting Slicks
12-30-2012, 09:32 PM
#26
Instructor
pretty sure the fenders have to ONLY be as wide as the tread surface...bulge at sidewall does not count as it does not throw up rocks and debris...just the contact patch. the pictures being shown by GM it looks like surface contact is contained under fenders but tire sidewall is out a bit further only.
12-30-2012, 09:37 PM
#27
To your point, these same tricks can (and likely will) be applied to the C7, regardless of body width.
Given two car body shapes that are the same, I do not believe that there is any inherent downforce benefit to having a wider car. If you have a wider area to apply downforce tools, like wings and splitters, sure, you could generate more. But take a base car that generates lift, an identical body that is wider but offers no other changes won't generate less lift. But I'm an ME, not an AE, so I could be wrong.
I agree there will likely only be one body of C7. Hopefully the proportions are such that it will look good at the width they choose, rather than needing some additional width to look good to people.
12-30-2012, 09:47 PM
#28
Race Director
Thread Starter
I think his point was that the wide body cars do not have better downforce/lift reduction simply by way of being wider. GM used the wider body to cover the wider wheels and tires. But since these cars also were to have a higher performance envelope, they also applied tricks such as splitters and ducting to reduce lift.
To your point, these same tricks can (and likely will) be applied to the C7, regardless of body width.
Given two car body shapes that are the same, I do not believe that there is any inherent downforce benefit to having a wider car. If you have a wider area to apply downforce tools, like wings and splitters, sure, you could generate more. But take a base car that generates lift, an identical body that is wider but offers no other changes won't generate less lift. But I'm an ME, not an AE, so I could be wrong.
I agree there will likely only be one body of C7. Hopefully the proportions are such that it will look good at the width they choose, rather than needing some additional width to look good to people.
To your point, these same tricks can (and likely will) be applied to the C7, regardless of body width.
Given two car body shapes that are the same, I do not believe that there is any inherent downforce benefit to having a wider car. If you have a wider area to apply downforce tools, like wings and splitters, sure, you could generate more. But take a base car that generates lift, an identical body that is wider but offers no other changes won't generate less lift. But I'm an ME, not an AE, so I could be wrong.
I agree there will likely only be one body of C7. Hopefully the proportions are such that it will look good at the width they choose, rather than needing some additional width to look good to people.
I said that I thought (and he agreed) that it has a lot to do with it though.
There is much more engineering in the "wide body" cars then just to decrease lift(even though that is a major part of the wide body design).
12-30-2012, 10:36 PM
#29
Melting Slicks
From all the pics and renders we have seen -- I wouldn't be surprised if the base model is a much more plain version than what everyone has been seeing leak wise.
If there is no widebody or specially made up body for the (hope they make it) Z06 - then I will look elsewhere for my next supercar.
Don't get my wrong - love my 08Z06, but it was disappointing to see them ***** out the body panels and everything that made it unique to lesser models. Maybe that makes me a bit of a Z06 snob, but for the money I spent, it would be nice to feel somewhat exclusive. Bit of a slap in the face but whatever, they are in it for the cold hard cash called profit
It was awesome to be able to look at a corvette from 1/2 a mile away and know it was a Z06 approaching, now? Not so much.
If there is no widebody or specially made up body for the (hope they make it) Z06 - then I will look elsewhere for my next supercar.
Don't get my wrong - love my 08Z06, but it was disappointing to see them ***** out the body panels and everything that made it unique to lesser models. Maybe that makes me a bit of a Z06 snob, but for the money I spent, it would be nice to feel somewhat exclusive. Bit of a slap in the face but whatever, they are in it for the cold hard cash called profit
It was awesome to be able to look at a corvette from 1/2 a mile away and know it was a Z06 approaching, now? Not so much.
12-30-2012, 11:05 PM
#30
Instructor
12-31-2012, 12:23 AM
#31
Well, I never said that it did have better downforce ONLY by virtue of being wider.
I said that I thought (and he agreed) that it has a lot to do with it though.
Certainly, the splitters and other body aero features are involved. My point was that the C7, with the aid of the new hood and upper rear fender vents (and the other features involved) may have the same downforce as the C6Z cars.
I said that I thought (and he agreed) that it has a lot to do with it though.
Certainly, the splitters and other body aero features are involved. My point was that the C7, with the aid of the new hood and upper rear fender vents (and the other features involved) may have the same downforce as the C6Z cars.
Aerodynamically speaking I would argue that narrower is better. Less drag from less frontal area.
12-31-2012, 01:37 AM
#32
Le Mans Master
I think his point was that the wide body cars do not have better downforce/lift reduction simply by way of being wider. GM used the wider body to cover the wider wheels and tires. But since these cars also were to have a higher performance envelope, they also applied tricks such as splitters and ducting to reduce lift.
To your point, these same tricks can (and likely will) be applied to the C7, regardless of body width.
Given two car body shapes that are the same, I do not believe that there is any inherent downforce benefit to having a wider car. If you have a wider area to apply downforce tools, like wings and splitters, sure, you could generate more. But take a base car that generates lift, an identical body that is wider but offers no other changes won't generate less lift. But I'm an ME, not an AE, so I could be wrong.
I agree there will likely only be one body of C7. Hopefully the proportions are such that it will look good at the width they choose, rather than needing some additional width to look good to people.
To your point, these same tricks can (and likely will) be applied to the C7, regardless of body width.
Given two car body shapes that are the same, I do not believe that there is any inherent downforce benefit to having a wider car. If you have a wider area to apply downforce tools, like wings and splitters, sure, you could generate more. But take a base car that generates lift, an identical body that is wider but offers no other changes won't generate less lift. But I'm an ME, not an AE, so I could be wrong.
I agree there will likely only be one body of C7. Hopefully the proportions are such that it will look good at the width they choose, rather than needing some additional width to look good to people.
This is basically what I said on the previous page. I don't see how flared wheel wells would give the car more downforce. Only more drag. The benefit was clearly for wider tires. If the length/width proportions are equivalent, a car WITHOUT flared wheel wells would appear to me to have less drag. Afterall, the wheel wells are the only thing wider on the widebody. In other words the wheels should be DESIGNED to be under the car, not an afterthought.
12-31-2012, 02:27 AM
#33
Le Mans Master
From all the pics and renders we have seen -- I wouldn't be surprised if the base model is a much more plain version than what everyone has been seeing leak wise.
If there is no widebody or specially made up body for the (hope they make it) Z06 - then I will look elsewhere for my next supercar.
Don't get my wrong - love my 08Z06, but it was disappointing to see them ***** out the body panels and everything that made it unique to lesser models. Maybe that makes me a bit of a Z06 snob, but for the money I spent, it would be nice to feel somewhat exclusive. Bit of a slap in the face but whatever, they are in it for the cold hard cash called profit
It was awesome to be able to look at a corvette from 1/2 a mile away and know it was a Z06 approaching, now? Not so much.
If there is no widebody or specially made up body for the (hope they make it) Z06 - then I will look elsewhere for my next supercar.
Don't get my wrong - love my 08Z06, but it was disappointing to see them ***** out the body panels and everything that made it unique to lesser models. Maybe that makes me a bit of a Z06 snob, but for the money I spent, it would be nice to feel somewhat exclusive. Bit of a slap in the face but whatever, they are in it for the cold hard cash called profit
It was awesome to be able to look at a corvette from 1/2 a mile away and know it was a Z06 approaching, now? Not so much.
12-31-2012, 07:01 AM
#35
Le Mans Master
Wide bodies, on any high performance variants (m3, porsche turbo body, z06, zr1) is a result of tire clearance. Generally speaking, the high performance bodies are higher in drag than their standard counterparts. The widebody will likely come down to how much tire this new corvette can fit in its wheel wells.
It is a fact that federal standards and european standards dictate tire coverage. European standards in the past have even forced manufacturers to push the tires inboard due to snowchain fitment requirements. Point is, sometimes what you see on cars here are merely a result of fitting into various international markets legally, even if it doesnt make sense here.
In ALMS, it is true the corvettes have taken advantage of increased track widths and have increased performance as a result. This revealed itself with the 458's who did not take advantage of the track width increase, as they suffered for it.
It is a fact that federal standards and european standards dictate tire coverage. European standards in the past have even forced manufacturers to push the tires inboard due to snowchain fitment requirements. Point is, sometimes what you see on cars here are merely a result of fitting into various international markets legally, even if it doesnt make sense here.
In ALMS, it is true the corvettes have taken advantage of increased track widths and have increased performance as a result. This revealed itself with the 458's who did not take advantage of the track width increase, as they suffered for it.
12-31-2012, 07:46 AM
#36
Le Mans Master
Don't get my wrong - love my 08Z06, but it was disappointing to see them ***** out the body panels and everything that made it unique to lesser models. Maybe that makes me a bit of a Z06 snob, but for the money I spent, it would be nice to feel somewhat exclusive
12-31-2012, 08:20 AM
#37
Racer
Member Since: Dec 2012
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I think Grand sport is great. It had actually clocked same time as 2006 z06 on german magazine on Hockenheim track. More chassis balancing and brakes than brute force; much more sports car type of approach to performance.
12-31-2012, 08:21 AM
#38
Team Owner
12-31-2012, 09:03 AM
#40
Race Director
Thread Starter
It is pretty hilarious to see folks saying GM 'whored' anything out! GM's job is to make money and if they make/save money by using parts from one car to sell more cars cheaper, so be it.
They would have just been smarter to have made the whole C6 line wide bodied...and I own and love my 'narrow' '05 vert. Then, as in the past, the major differences would have been the engines/accessories involved.
They would have just been smarter to have made the whole C6 line wide bodied...and I own and love my 'narrow' '05 vert. Then, as in the past, the major differences would have been the engines/accessories involved.