C7 on E85 faster than C6ZO6
12-14-2012, 11:18 AM
#142
Safety Car
I have never seen so much sand in the panties.
While none of us know exactly what the C7 will bring, the idea that cannot provide C6Z like performance just seems silly to me. The C6Z is eight years old afterall.. I would hope with almost a decade to design a new car.. that GM could develop a few new performance tricks to atleast make the new generation perform better than that last.
While none of us know exactly what the C7 will bring, the idea that cannot provide C6Z like performance just seems silly to me. The C6Z is eight years old afterall.. I would hope with almost a decade to design a new car.. that GM could develop a few new performance tricks to atleast make the new generation perform better than that last.
12-14-2012, 11:34 AM
#143
I might have to take the day off work on 1/13/12... all this excrement is driving me crazy. I can't wait to buy my C7, and find a way to push E85 through it like I am my LS3.. If it's able to do it stock, and give you the benefited performance from E85 without the hassle.. I just might **** my pants
12-14-2012, 11:37 AM
#144
Le Mans Master
I have never seen so much sand in the panties.
While none of us know exactly what the C7 will bring, the idea that cannot provide C6Z like performance just seems silly to me. The C6Z is eight years old afterall.. I would hope with almost a decade to design a new car.. that GM could develop a few new performance tricks to atleast make the new generation perform better than that last.
While none of us know exactly what the C7 will bring, the idea that cannot provide C6Z like performance just seems silly to me. The C6Z is eight years old afterall.. I would hope with almost a decade to design a new car.. that GM could develop a few new performance tricks to atleast make the new generation perform better than that last.
12-14-2012, 11:54 AM
#145
Melting Slicks
I have never seen so much sand in the panties.
While none of us know exactly what the C7 will bring, the idea that cannot provide C6Z like performance just seems silly to me. The C6Z is eight years old afterall.. I would hope with almost a decade to design a new car.. that GM could develop a few new performance tricks to atleast make the new generation perform better than that last.
While none of us know exactly what the C7 will bring, the idea that cannot provide C6Z like performance just seems silly to me. The C6Z is eight years old afterall.. I would hope with almost a decade to design a new car.. that GM could develop a few new performance tricks to atleast make the new generation perform better than that last.
1 wider tires (they are c6 size not enough grip to compete from a dig with the c6z06)
2 DCT transmission (won't have this)
3 a much larger amount of power to compensate for less traction a la 2013 gt500.
Advances in tech don't change simple physics.
12-14-2012, 12:58 PM
#146
Burning Brakes
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Your thinking is pretty flawed here. Nothing the c7 has will allow it to best a c6z06. It would need 1 or more of the following 3 things.
1 wider tires (they are c6 size not enough grip to compete from a dig with the c6z06)
2 DCT transmission (won't have this)
3 a much larger amount of power to compensate for less traction a la 2013 gt500.
Advances in tech don't change simple physics.
1 wider tires (they are c6 size not enough grip to compete from a dig with the c6z06)
2 DCT transmission (won't have this)
3 a much larger amount of power to compensate for less traction a la 2013 gt500.
Advances in tech don't change simple physics.
12-14-2012, 01:02 PM
#147
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I might have to take the day off work on 1/13/12... all this excrement is driving me crazy. I can't wait to buy my C7, and find a way to push E85 through it like I am my LS3.. If it's able to do it stock, and give you the benefited performance from E85 without the hassle.. I just might **** my pants
Have you read the thread over at the tech site? A lot of good information over there from someone who seems to have a lot of information.
12-14-2012, 01:09 PM
#148
I think you just might **** your pants then. From all accounts it sounds like it will run on it from the factory, your first fill-up could be with E85 if there is enough gas in the tank to get you to an E85 source. And from the sounds of it, you will be running around with an extra 40 horse then everyone else, once you get all the gasoline burnt out of the tank.
Have you read the thread over at the tech site? A lot of good information over there from someone who seems to have a lot of information.
Have you read the thread over at the tech site? A lot of good information over there from someone who seems to have a lot of information.
what?!@? Link?
12-14-2012, 01:18 PM
#149
Melting Slicks
Heh it's funny watching you guys go back and forth.
The C6Z came out in 06 -- so that makes it 7 years old in 2013. Why some people are saying 8 years old?
Of course there will be advances in tech over a 7 year period... the trick is how many advances can they LEGALLY get away with thanks to increasing federal regulations concerning mileage/emissions/etc.
I'm all for more efficiency and lighter weight - which is why I bought a damn 2008 Z06 off the showroom floor 5 years ago
This same thread was around when the transition to the C6 happened. When all that was going on I was only just getting outta college by that time, but from my reading most people agreed it was a tossup between "drivers race" vs the Z06 having a slight edge despite being last generation.
My interest in the C7 is kept purposefully low. I'm sure it will grow on me, but right now I love my C6Z. Give it a year or two after release and then talk to me. By then they will have worked out the kinks, announced (or not) the C7Z and my finances will probably be in a much better position to buy one.
C6Z will be just as fun and great of a car after the C7. C5Z's are still being bought and sold and are still awesome track cars.
Loving mine -- with no plans to change
The C6Z came out in 06 -- so that makes it 7 years old in 2013. Why some people are saying 8 years old?
Of course there will be advances in tech over a 7 year period... the trick is how many advances can they LEGALLY get away with thanks to increasing federal regulations concerning mileage/emissions/etc.
I'm all for more efficiency and lighter weight - which is why I bought a damn 2008 Z06 off the showroom floor 5 years ago
This same thread was around when the transition to the C6 happened. When all that was going on I was only just getting outta college by that time, but from my reading most people agreed it was a tossup between "drivers race" vs the Z06 having a slight edge despite being last generation. My interest in the C7 is kept purposefully low. I'm sure it will grow on me, but right now I love my C6Z. Give it a year or two after release and then talk to me. By then they will have worked out the kinks, announced (or not) the C7Z and my finances will probably be in a much better position to buy one.
C6Z will be just as fun and great of a car after the C7. C5Z's are still being bought and sold and are still awesome track cars.
Loving mine -- with no plans to change
12-14-2012, 01:58 PM
#150
Safety Car
2006
2007
2008
2009
2010
2011
2012
2013
(The same way you bought your 2008 five years ago, but the calendar year is still 2012).
12-14-2012, 02:03 PM
#151
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Its really obvious their are a lot of people that know nothing about engines and have never seen the inside of an engine. To clear things up:
1st yes it will make more power on E85.
2nd it will no where near make the power you think it does. E85 testing has been done on many cars. Most pick up an extra 10-20 rwhp over an car tuned on 93. Cars with direct injection and cam timing including cars that individually tune each cam have been tested. There has been a few cars that gain 50-80 hp. They are forced induction cars running very high IAT's which add hp mainly through cooling.
3rd these gains are with a custom aggresive tune on e85 where they add tons of timing. A standard flex fuel tune will not be anywhere near as aggressive. I've personally done back to back dyno testing using the flex fuel tune on some cars and the gains are usually around 1-1.5% aftermarket E85 tune more like 6-7%. Remember they add felx fuel for enviormental reasons not performance reasons on all the major manufacturers. You see flex fuel in economy cars and trucks not sports cars.
4th NO ONE knows what the timing sweet spot is on the LT1 engine. Most LS's really do not like more then mid to high 20's ignition timing. You can have more octane and more knock resistance and add more timing and you will not make more power. For all we know you could reach best timing on 93 octane and more will not add power. It could want much more timing and e85 could prove substantial. Direct injection hurts the e85 case because the very thing that makes direct injection good by adding knock resistance diminishes the need for more octane. So by having DI you can tune more aggresively out of the factory so how much more aggresive can you get. Also usually adding more fuel with DI is a problem thats very complex and expensive. No one knows how far the stock fuel system will go on e85.
5th changing the cam timing will not effect the compression ratio much. You can only adance or retard the whole cam. And if you hold the valves open longer you lose compression.
On a side note I had the same engine controller on my big turbo cobalt. It was a literal nightmare to deal with and tune.
1st yes it will make more power on E85.
2nd it will no where near make the power you think it does. E85 testing has been done on many cars. Most pick up an extra 10-20 rwhp over an car tuned on 93. Cars with direct injection and cam timing including cars that individually tune each cam have been tested. There has been a few cars that gain 50-80 hp. They are forced induction cars running very high IAT's which add hp mainly through cooling.
3rd these gains are with a custom aggresive tune on e85 where they add tons of timing. A standard flex fuel tune will not be anywhere near as aggressive. I've personally done back to back dyno testing using the flex fuel tune on some cars and the gains are usually around 1-1.5% aftermarket E85 tune more like 6-7%. Remember they add felx fuel for enviormental reasons not performance reasons on all the major manufacturers. You see flex fuel in economy cars and trucks not sports cars.
4th NO ONE knows what the timing sweet spot is on the LT1 engine. Most LS's really do not like more then mid to high 20's ignition timing. You can have more octane and more knock resistance and add more timing and you will not make more power. For all we know you could reach best timing on 93 octane and more will not add power. It could want much more timing and e85 could prove substantial. Direct injection hurts the e85 case because the very thing that makes direct injection good by adding knock resistance diminishes the need for more octane. So by having DI you can tune more aggresively out of the factory so how much more aggresive can you get. Also usually adding more fuel with DI is a problem thats very complex and expensive. No one knows how far the stock fuel system will go on e85.
5th changing the cam timing will not effect the compression ratio much. You can only adance or retard the whole cam. And if you hold the valves open longer you lose compression.
On a side note I had the same engine controller on my big turbo cobalt. It was a literal nightmare to deal with and tune.
Last edited by BLACKVETTE102; 12-14-2012 at 02:09 PM.
12-14-2012, 02:07 PM
#152
Safety Car
This just in, the new 4.3L V6 will mop the floor with the LS1.
Version 2 of the LT1 will have cam-in-cam to vary duration as well + ........................................ ........................................ ........................................ ..............it will be...................................... ..................................LARGER !
Folks, the C7 will rule. You may need the dry sump and some better tires on the base car at most to completely shadow the Z06. And when it comes to this Version 2...Wow.
Version 2 of the LT1 will have cam-in-cam to vary duration as well + ........................................ ........................................ ........................................ ..............it will be...................................... ..................................LARGER !
Folks, the C7 will rule. You may need the dry sump and some better tires on the base car at most to completely shadow the Z06. And when it comes to this Version 2...Wow.
12-14-2012, 02:51 PM
#153
Le Mans Master
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A few things about E85 & high octane. This is generalized 101 information not taking into consideration combustion chamber design, CR, etc.. merely fuel information 101
* Higher octane is less combustable allowing more timing advance to be added until mean best timing is reached. If engine designed for 87 octane using 93 octane will result in lowered efficiency-mpg-power
* 87 octane has a faster flame front sometimes causing predetonation on compression stroke as piston travels upward. It is more comustable and holds more energy.
* E85 along with higher octane rating burns cooler than straight gasoline in same application
Apparently on E85 the C7's E92 ecm senses combined effect of higher octane and cooler egt's commanding optimum timing advance to make most power.
No comments or speculation about about how much more power E85 is capable of making vs 91 or 93....but in general higher compression "non DI" engines require 91 octane or better to meet advertised horsepower ratings.
DI introduces fuel later in the combustion stroke to lessen chance of predetonation, that is why you see DI engines with higher CR than "non DI" engines.
Just my $.02
* Higher octane is less combustable allowing more timing advance to be added until mean best timing is reached. If engine designed for 87 octane using 93 octane will result in lowered efficiency-mpg-power
* 87 octane has a faster flame front sometimes causing predetonation on compression stroke as piston travels upward. It is more comustable and holds more energy.
* E85 along with higher octane rating burns cooler than straight gasoline in same application
Apparently on E85 the C7's E92 ecm senses combined effect of higher octane and cooler egt's commanding optimum timing advance to make most power.
No comments or speculation about about how much more power E85 is capable of making vs 91 or 93....but in general higher compression "non DI" engines require 91 octane or better to meet advertised horsepower ratings.
DI introduces fuel later in the combustion stroke to lessen chance of predetonation, that is why you see DI engines with higher CR than "non DI" engines.
Just my $.02
12-14-2012, 03:10 PM
#154
Melting Slicks
It would need to be 300lbs lighter to be faster which we all know isn't happening. I bet its heavier due to the removable top and heavier engine. Skinnier tires and rims will be lighter but overall there are many sacrifices the base coupe makes that say no to your hypothesis.
And lol at people thinking old car means slow car. But it's an 8 year old design! Doesn't really mean anything at all. The c6z06 isn't a cell phone.
And lol at people thinking old car means slow car. But it's an 8 year old design! Doesn't really mean anything at all. The c6z06 isn't a cell phone.
Last edited by gatti-man; 12-14-2012 at 03:13 PM.
12-14-2012, 03:33 PM
#155
Le Mans Master
"Yes it is a very prideful statement haha But seriously the C7 is a performer. This car in it's base form is shocking in terms of OEM performance. You seem like the type of guy that likes higher end performance. I will ask you to wait for the replacement of the C6 z06. Now that version of the C7 is going after true hyper cars titles."- Big Guns (from the tech forum)
This is what I am waiting on to replace my C6Z
This is what I am waiting on to replace my C6Z
12-14-2012, 04:03 PM
#156
The current 5.3L "LMG" truck engine is rated at 315hp on gas and 326hp on E85 per the GM Powertrain site. If what Bigg Gunz says is true the LT1 might very well have ways of extracting more additional power than expected from E85. The way he talks about power makes me think GM should have more than 450hp up their sleeve, so I guess we'll see. As to whether the base C7 will out perform the C6 Z06, IMO we don't really know enough detail about the C7 gearing, traction control systems, actual weight, weight distribution, etc. to judge that, but I would expect something more like ~85% of C6 Z06 performance.
http://ls1tech.com/forums/16978189-post441.html
Originally Posted by Bigg Gunz
<snip>
the ECM is working serious mathematical equations to make the cam think the intake side of the valves are constantly changing the timing to stay open different durations for optimal a/f ratio configuration.
In reality it's NOT, In VVT the Duration or Lift is not changed, just the timing in VVT. It doesn't matter because it's what the pressures are telling the ECM and this is where VCCT is slightly more complicated as we've given the cam more free range of motion/timing. And that is putting it lightly and watering it down. And yes guys this is all still dealing with just "valve overlap" at the moment, but I will get into that later.
<snip>
The ECM can and will control VVT to increase valve overlap to the point where the engine can pump air with no load this is done for reasons that I am NOT at liberty to say. When in performance mode and at WOT open throttle while the exhaust valve is open the ECM is will send a bursts of fuel down into the exhaust system this creates a controlled explosion in the exhaust system and this is done for reasons I can't state and will NOT elaborate more on. So DO NOT ASK....
When the average gear head looks at the 2014 LT1 cam specs. He thinks emission cam / gas saver cam and relatively conservative. And those specs are 200intake/207exhaust duration LSA 116.5 ........cam lift intake.551 and exhaust .524
The first thing that person wants to do, due to habit is change the cam for something larger... more aggressive then change the timing and install larger injectors to dump fuel into the cylinders. That works for yesterday's technology and when doing this in these types of engines this is inexperience... what use to work in past engines DOESN"T work in these engines. This is NOT your engine of yesterday. This engine platform is capable of making monstrous horsepower in OEM form.
<snip>
the ECM is working serious mathematical equations to make the cam think the intake side of the valves are constantly changing the timing to stay open different durations for optimal a/f ratio configuration.
In reality it's NOT, In VVT the Duration or Lift is not changed, just the timing in VVT. It doesn't matter because it's what the pressures are telling the ECM and this is where VCCT is slightly more complicated as we've given the cam more free range of motion/timing. And that is putting it lightly and watering it down. And yes guys this is all still dealing with just "valve overlap" at the moment, but I will get into that later.
<snip>
The ECM can and will control VVT to increase valve overlap to the point where the engine can pump air with no load this is done for reasons that I am NOT at liberty to say. When in performance mode and at WOT open throttle while the exhaust valve is open the ECM is will send a bursts of fuel down into the exhaust system this creates a controlled explosion in the exhaust system and this is done for reasons I can't state and will NOT elaborate more on. So DO NOT ASK....
When the average gear head looks at the 2014 LT1 cam specs. He thinks emission cam / gas saver cam and relatively conservative. And those specs are 200intake/207exhaust duration LSA 116.5 ........cam lift intake.551 and exhaust .524
The first thing that person wants to do, due to habit is change the cam for something larger... more aggressive then change the timing and install larger injectors to dump fuel into the cylinders. That works for yesterday's technology and when doing this in these types of engines this is inexperience... what use to work in past engines DOESN"T work in these engines. This is NOT your engine of yesterday. This engine platform is capable of making monstrous horsepower in OEM form.
<snip>
12-14-2012, 04:42 PM
#157
Melting Slicks
"Yes it is a very prideful statement haha But seriously the C7 is a performer. This car in it's base form is shocking in terms of OEM performance. You seem like the type of guy that likes higher end performance. I will ask you to wait for the replacement of the C6 z06. Now that version of the C7 is going after true hyper cars titles."- Big Guns (from the tech forum)
12-14-2012, 05:02 PM
#158
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
I would expect any real Corvette fan to want the new C7 model to at least be able to hang with the ZO6 that up until 5 years ago was considered the fastest Corvette available. For sure if modern technology cannot move forward fast enough to surpass the car that was top dog 5 years ago, their needs to be a change of personnel in the R&D division. If I had said that the new C7 will be faster than the ZR1 is I would expect to hear some complaints, however for being faster than an 8-year-old Z06 is something people should expect
Bottom line; with the least in expectations concerning power coming from the new C7 Corvette running on E 85 fuel is it will make similar numbers as the LS 7 does albeit at a lower & friendlier RPM. On the other hand it may make considerably more power than the LS7, and will have a much more aerodynamic body at the time it is punching a smaller hole than the wide-body C6 does.
In addition it will have less rolling resistance with narrower tires that will have more pressure per square inch able to take advantage of newer and better rubber compounds. On the negative side the base C7 coupe will need a dry sump option box checked to be ZO6 worthy and road course ready.
The car will come in at least with the same or better weight but with better weight distribution, and when equipped with an automatic transmission is expected to shift as fast as Toyota's LFA with the same transmission.
Anyone who will be offended when their 8-year-old design Corvette is not faster than the new Corvette is being immature, and are not a true fan of America's best sports car
Bottom line; with the least in expectations concerning power coming from the new C7 Corvette running on E 85 fuel is it will make similar numbers as the LS 7 does albeit at a lower & friendlier RPM. On the other hand it may make considerably more power than the LS7, and will have a much more aerodynamic body at the time it is punching a smaller hole than the wide-body C6 does.
In addition it will have less rolling resistance with narrower tires that will have more pressure per square inch able to take advantage of newer and better rubber compounds. On the negative side the base C7 coupe will need a dry sump option box checked to be ZO6 worthy and road course ready.
The car will come in at least with the same or better weight but with better weight distribution, and when equipped with an automatic transmission is expected to shift as fast as Toyota's LFA with the same transmission.
Anyone who will be offended when their 8-year-old design Corvette is not faster than the new Corvette is being immature, and are not a true fan of America's best sports car
Last edited by Shurshot; 12-14-2012 at 05:06 PM.
12-14-2012, 05:51 PM
#159
Le Mans Master
I don't think anyone is offended at this wild speculation that the C7 is faster than a C6 Z06. It's just we don't see any evidence that would lend some credibility to these claims.
I'm sure if it makes more than 450hp, GM will market that claim of higher HP and not hide it. "And with the C7's new LT1, increases of up to 80hp is just a tank full of environmentally friendly E85 fuel away!" "Surpasses the prior generation Z06 in performance!!
I'm sure if it makes more than 450hp, GM will market that claim of higher HP and not hide it. "And with the C7's new LT1, increases of up to 80hp is just a tank full of environmentally friendly E85 fuel away!" "Surpasses the prior generation Z06 in performance!!
12-14-2012, 06:21 PM
#160
Safety Car
One of GM's engineers clearly stated it will make up to 80hp more on E85, and that the true power is more than 450. It's not wild speculation. Nobody is making this up.