2500 lb C7 Corvette possible?
#21
Team Owner
While I agree with you on ALL of those awesome benefits, 2500 pounds is simply out of the question, unfortunately.
The car is expected (by both the buying public and the corporate decision makers alike) to have too much content and be too quiet along with all of the safety and emissions requirements for it to really go anywhere below 3000 (maybe 2900?) pounds.
It would require a major change in focus/direction (and likely a HUGE reduction in power output) for the nameplate to get the weight down that low.
Think of the transition from the heavier 300ZX twin turbos down to the lighter, less powerful 370Zs (after a few years hiatus of course).
Very cool cars, I've been somewhat of a fan of those since the late '70s. The Sprint models and the special 'Gold Leaf' editions, Minilite wheels etc.
When the Miata first came out I was like: "hmm, I wonder where some of that car's influence came from?" LOL.
The car is expected (by both the buying public and the corporate decision makers alike) to have too much content and be too quiet along with all of the safety and emissions requirements for it to really go anywhere below 3000 (maybe 2900?) pounds.
It would require a major change in focus/direction (and likely a HUGE reduction in power output) for the nameplate to get the weight down that low.
Think of the transition from the heavier 300ZX twin turbos down to the lighter, less powerful 370Zs (after a few years hiatus of course).
When the Miata first came out I was like: "hmm, I wonder where some of that car's influence came from?" LOL.
#22
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Jul 2000
Location: North Dallas 40 TX
Posts: 6,451
Received 4,375 Likes
on
2,066 Posts
Horsepower is not an issue when lightweight vehicle technology is the subject. Only power-to-weight ratio should be considered.
But the Corvette does have a better power-to-weight ratio than the Elise. However, the Elise can do quarter mile times in the 13's.
A relative of the Elise, the 2-Eleven, makes 1477 pounds weight in road trim. So the Elise is not really that sparten even though it weighs 500 pounds less than a MX-5.
But the Corvette does have a better power-to-weight ratio than the Elise. However, the Elise can do quarter mile times in the 13's.
A relative of the Elise, the 2-Eleven, makes 1477 pounds weight in road trim. So the Elise is not really that sparten even though it weighs 500 pounds less than a MX-5.
The 2005 Elise I had with the Sport pack theoretically could do 0-60 in 4.0 secs (with a 8000rpm clutch drop), but a 385hp, 3000 pound 2001 Z06 with a similar 0-60 kicked its bottom from there on up.
My brother had a 1967 Europa that weighed ~1500, that was spartan compared to the Elise, the Z06 was a luxury car by comparison to the Elise. The current Corvette is head and shoulders above the 2001 Z06. I don't get the complaints. Sports cars are supposed to be spartan.
#23
Team Owner
I don't see the Northstar engine coming back.
And C7 will be doing quite well to hit the ground around 3,100 at its debut.
Perhaps if carbon fiber production techniques continue to push the time and cost of that product down, we'll be able to see more use of it in the Vette down the road, which would help.
And C7 will be doing quite well to hit the ground around 3,100 at its debut.
Perhaps if carbon fiber production techniques continue to push the time and cost of that product down, we'll be able to see more use of it in the Vette down the road, which would help.
102" actually.
#24
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Jul 2000
Location: North Dallas 40 TX
Posts: 6,451
Received 4,375 Likes
on
2,066 Posts
The Northstar is dead and pales in comparison to the current LSx engines, in terms of size, weight and power. The Gen V engine will be even better than the LSx Gen IV small block.
#25
A 5.0 32-valve Ford Mustang engine makes 420 horsepower. That's more horsepower-per-liter than the LS engines.
Last edited by B Stead; 07-02-2012 at 02:05 AM.
#26
Melting Slicks
My 2012 Kia Rio is 2403 pounds straight off the dealer lot. Base model, no crazy options. 1.6 Direct injection and I get 40mpg on the highway. Think about that.
And it's a tiny car (outward appearance at least) Inside - i'm almost 6'2 and 215lbs and have plenty of room.
It's a skinny short car though, once you start adding a 5-7L engine, 345mm tires/rims, all that jazz weight starts to skyrocket. It quite literally takes two tires put together to equal the width of the rears on my Z06. Kinda funny
If GM can really ramp up and get carbon fiber for cheap they could make a nice dent in the weight, but it's all about how much joe six pack is willing to pay.
And it's a tiny car (outward appearance at least) Inside - i'm almost 6'2 and 215lbs and have plenty of room.
It's a skinny short car though, once you start adding a 5-7L engine, 345mm tires/rims, all that jazz weight starts to skyrocket. It quite literally takes two tires put together to equal the width of the rears on my Z06. Kinda funny
If GM can really ramp up and get carbon fiber for cheap they could make a nice dent in the weight, but it's all about how much joe six pack is willing to pay.
#27
"And so the Corvette will pretty much be okay if it doesn't change its current construction type."
But see, they might change the construction type of the Corvette.
They have to keep the large frame for the horsepower but they could replace the fiberglass bodywork with hydroformed steel bodywork. If they do that the weight goes up 200 pounds. Could they do that ? Yeah, that's how the Solstice is built.
#28
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Jul 2009
Location: Los Angeles California
Posts: 9,526
Likes: 0
Received 10 Likes
on
10 Posts
2500Lbs is simply unrealistic for a Corvette under $200K.
/story
Now I don't believe that the Corvette has to be super light weight to have a "new lease on life" and honestly, I'm not aware that it needs one.
/story
Now I don't believe that the Corvette has to be super light weight to have a "new lease on life" and honestly, I'm not aware that it needs one.
#29
Team Owner
But yes, better fuel economy would be welcome and might even be mandatory if the car is going to survive well into the future.
I just know if going with DOHCs and 4 valves per cylinder is the only way to achieve it, as you seem to be implying.
But see, they might change the construction type of the Corvette.
They have to keep the large frame for the horsepower but they could replace the fiberglass bodywork with hydroformed steel bodywork. If they do that the weight goes up 200 pounds. Could they do that ? Yeah, that's how the Solstice is built.
They have to keep the large frame for the horsepower but they could replace the fiberglass bodywork with hydroformed steel bodywork. If they do that the weight goes up 200 pounds. Could they do that ? Yeah, that's how the Solstice is built.
And they won't be adding 200 pounds (nor making the body out of steel) to the next Corvette. It might not lose too much (or any) weight for 2014 (though I still think it will), but it certainly won't be gaining any either.
#30
Drifting
The Corvette needs better fuel mileage. They ARE talking about a turbo V6. But a 32-valve Northstar would have the balance of a V8. And we see from the Lincoln LS that a V8 has no problem as small as 3.9L.
A 5.0 32-valve Ford Mustang engine makes 420 horsepower. That's more horsepower-per-liter than the LS engines.
A 5.0 32-valve Ford Mustang engine makes 420 horsepower. That's more horsepower-per-liter than the LS engines.
The new Coyote 5.0 is truly an impressive engine, but still does weigh more than an LS3, while making less power and torque.
In my humble opinion horsepower per liter is irrelevant for a street car that's primary market does not tax displacement. Direct Injection and the associated higher compression ratio, combined with reductions to internal friction and the rumored more advanced valvetrain, when coupled with some weight reduction will provide all the fuel consumption improvement necessary in a car that makes up such a comparatively low percentage of fleet volume.
I would like to see the C7 be as light as possible too, but think fewer than 3000lbs is probably unrealistic, and even that is not going to be easy.
The above is all just my opinion and could very well be off base. We'll all find out in January
#31
The SOLSTICE?? What the.....???
#32
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Jul 2000
Location: North Dallas 40 TX
Posts: 6,451
Received 4,375 Likes
on
2,066 Posts
The Corvette needs better fuel mileage. They ARE talking about a turbo V6. But a 32-valve Northstar would have the balance of a V8. And we see from the Lincoln LS that a V8 has no problem as small as 3.9L.
A 5.0 32-valve Ford Mustang engine makes 420 horsepower. That's more horsepower-per-liter than the LS engines.
A 5.0 32-valve Ford Mustang engine makes 420 horsepower. That's more horsepower-per-liter than the LS engines.
Power per liter is of little consequence.
#33
Le Mans Master
It's still impressively light for a luxury sedan, but it's yet more evidence of how wholly unrealistic calls for a 2500lb Corvette are.
I'd love to see cars get lighter, but it's going to take serious rationalization of safety standards and new manufacturing technology to make significant reductions, especially in cars like Corvette.
And yes, pounds-per-horsepower is an important metric. The US Elise never saw the right side of the 10lb/hp line; the Corvette crossed it fifteen years ago. Nuff said.
As for the Northstar fanboy, your favorite engine is dead for very good reasons.
.Jinx
#34
Team Owner
Of course the car that it's installed in also weighs 400+ pounds more than a Corvette as well.
The new Coyote 5.0 is truly an impressive engine, but still does weigh more than an LS3, while making less power and torque.
In my humble opinion horsepower per liter is irrelevant for a street car that's primary market does not tax displacement. Direct Injection and the associated higher compression ratio, combined with reductions to internal friction and the rumored more advanced valvetrain, when coupled with some weight reduction will provide all the fuel consumption improvement necessary in a car that makes up such a comparatively low percentage of fleet volume.
In my humble opinion horsepower per liter is irrelevant for a street car that's primary market does not tax displacement. Direct Injection and the associated higher compression ratio, combined with reductions to internal friction and the rumored more advanced valvetrain, when coupled with some weight reduction will provide all the fuel consumption improvement necessary in a car that makes up such a comparatively low percentage of fleet volume.
#35
Burning Brakes
Member Since: Jun 2008
Location: Salem Ohio
Posts: 827
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No, it's 3400 pounds, for the base car. Nearly 3500 pounds for the enthusiast turbo-4 version, and over 3500 pounds for the 320hp V6 automatic.
It's still impressively light for a luxury sedan, but it's yet more evidence of how wholly unrealistic calls for a 2500lb Corvette are.
I'd love to see cars get lighter, but it's going to take serious rationalization of safety standards and new manufacturing technology to make significant reductions, especially in cars like Corvette.
And yes, pounds-per-horsepower is an important metric. The US Elise never saw the right side of the 10lb/hp line; the Corvette crossed it fifteen years ago. Nuff said.
As for the Northstar fanboy, your favorite engine is dead for very good reasons.
.Jinx
It's still impressively light for a luxury sedan, but it's yet more evidence of how wholly unrealistic calls for a 2500lb Corvette are.
I'd love to see cars get lighter, but it's going to take serious rationalization of safety standards and new manufacturing technology to make significant reductions, especially in cars like Corvette.
And yes, pounds-per-horsepower is an important metric. The US Elise never saw the right side of the 10lb/hp line; the Corvette crossed it fifteen years ago. Nuff said.
As for the Northstar fanboy, your favorite engine is dead for very good reasons.
.Jinx
I think 30xx-3150 would be possible within the price, but I don't know if it will happen.
#36
Le Mans Master
#37
Burning Brakes
I think one useful area to attack with carbon fiber products is the unsprung weight of the car. Featherlight wheels, that make OEM wheels, CCWs and OZ racing wheels look like lead bricks by comparison, have always been available, but cost something like $10,000 for four. I would imagine that an order for tens of thousands of those wheels could reduce the cost substantially, and although the weight savings over current stock wheels might only be 30lbs, 30lbs off of unsprung weight is a substantial savings.
#38
Tech Contributor
Member Since: Oct 1999
Location: Charlotte, NC (formerly Endicott, NY)
Posts: 40,084
Received 8,926 Likes
on
5,332 Posts
The Corvette needs better fuel mileage. They ARE talking about a turbo V6. But a 32-valve Northstar would have the balance of a V8. And we see from the Lincoln LS that a V8 has no problem as small as 3.9L.
A 5.0 32-valve Ford Mustang engine makes 420 horsepower. That's more horsepower-per-liter than the LS engines.
A 5.0 32-valve Ford Mustang engine makes 420 horsepower. That's more horsepower-per-liter than the LS engines.
You start going with a smaller displacement OHC V6 with a Supercharger on it and you get a heavier engine with larger outside dimensions. All that crap necessary to place the cams on the top of the engine adds weight higher in the car and requires more room for the engine.
Bill
#39
Race Director
A 2500 LB Vette sounds like my dream daily driver. I have owned, driven daily, and loved, a 2000 lb Scirocco, 2100 lb FIAT X-1/9 and a 2800 lb Porsche 944. They had more than enough creature comforts for me, driver-friendly seating and communicative handling! Of course, they were terribly slow by today's standards (or, for that matter, Y2K standards).
I think it is conceiveable that you could create a safe, legal, reasonably comfortable and dependable, mass-produced, 300 HP/300 lb-ft torque, 2500 lb sports car for $50K -- but it would be a somewhat spartan vehicle. The market would be very small given today's consumer preferences. Think a stripper Miata with a 4 liter DI alloy V8. All systems -- wheels, tires, brakes, shocks, springs, AC, power assists, etc. would be "right-sized" for this somewhat smaller platform. If Miata can give you all that with 170 HP for $25K, then another $20K or so should put it over the top.
Now something like this would be really great if it somehow had the tractability and dependability of the Vette, which I am sure it does not: http://www.ronsusser.com/inventory.htm?id=884 But then, I'm older now and it would need to fit a couple golf bags plus my wife. No way...
I think it is conceiveable that you could create a safe, legal, reasonably comfortable and dependable, mass-produced, 300 HP/300 lb-ft torque, 2500 lb sports car for $50K -- but it would be a somewhat spartan vehicle. The market would be very small given today's consumer preferences. Think a stripper Miata with a 4 liter DI alloy V8. All systems -- wheels, tires, brakes, shocks, springs, AC, power assists, etc. would be "right-sized" for this somewhat smaller platform. If Miata can give you all that with 170 HP for $25K, then another $20K or so should put it over the top.
Now something like this would be really great if it somehow had the tractability and dependability of the Vette, which I am sure it does not: http://www.ronsusser.com/inventory.htm?id=884 But then, I'm older now and it would need to fit a couple golf bags plus my wife. No way...
Last edited by Rapid Fred; 07-02-2012 at 05:22 PM.
#40
Melting Slicks
A 2500 LB Vette sounds like my dream daily driver. I have owned, driven daily, and loved, a 2000 lb Scirocco, 2100 lb FIAT X-1/9 and a 2800 lb Porsche 944. They had more than enough creature comforts for me, driver-friendly seating and communicative handling! Of course, they were terribly slow by today's standards (or, for that matter, Y2K standards).
I think it is conceiveable that you could create a safe, legal, reasonably comfortable and dependable, mass-produced, 300 HP/300lbb-ft torque, 2500 lb sports car for $50K -- but it would be a somewhat spartan vehicle. The market would be very small given today's consumer preferences. Think a stripper Miata with a 4 liter DI alloy V8. All systems -- wheels, tires, brakes, shocks, springs, AC, power assists, etc. would be "right-sized" for this somewhat smaller platform. If Miata can give you all that with 170 HP for $25K, then another $20K or so should put it over the top.
Now something like this would be really great if it somehow had the tractability and dependability of the Vette, which I am sure it does not: http://www.ronsusser.com/inventory.htm?id=884 But then, I'm older now and it would need to fit a couple golf bags plus my wife. No way...
I think it is conceiveable that you could create a safe, legal, reasonably comfortable and dependable, mass-produced, 300 HP/300lbb-ft torque, 2500 lb sports car for $50K -- but it would be a somewhat spartan vehicle. The market would be very small given today's consumer preferences. Think a stripper Miata with a 4 liter DI alloy V8. All systems -- wheels, tires, brakes, shocks, springs, AC, power assists, etc. would be "right-sized" for this somewhat smaller platform. If Miata can give you all that with 170 HP for $25K, then another $20K or so should put it over the top.
Now something like this would be really great if it somehow had the tractability and dependability of the Vette, which I am sure it does not: http://www.ronsusser.com/inventory.htm?id=884 But then, I'm older now and it would need to fit a couple golf bags plus my wife. No way...