LS1LT1

True, and drivers of AWD cars have done the very same.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFkYoiObWks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4pmO...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_N82X...layer_embedded

No car is foolproof.

Jinx

It's to enjoy driving.

tuxnharley

I'm amazed that so many people miss this simple point, and seem to think that a car can only be good if its faster/bigger/more HP/higher tech than the next one. If that were true, ther wouldn't be a strong market for C2's

Endeka

Part of that is the Vette brand though. Since the C4 ZR1, that's what its been about. It isn't anything special to make a car that's cheaper than your German, English and Italian competition if it isn't as good on the track. What's really a trick is to get your $76,000 car to run with a $276,000 car. GM needs to be careful; I don't think the Vette would sell as well for pure fun factor, like a Miata or S2000, where you know it's not the fastest or the best, but you just like driving it. I mean, that's why I got mine, but I think a lot of owners definitely have that power=goodness mentality.

The Highlander

If that were true there wouldn't be a strong market for c7s. There wouldn't be a strong market to build and modify cars.

The GTR would have been a manual transmission and probably no AWD. Cars would have a sliding mode.

Yes yes... all of corvette forum people are But drool when they see a corvette spanking another car's a$$

I forgot, no one here gets over the speed limit and to enjoy these cars to the fullest you would have to break ALL laws or get into a closed circuit... and if you go to a closed circuit, you guys are NOT going to compete? Competing is a natural thing.

ockie

At twice the price I sure as hell expect the 911 to be better in every sense of the word...

If not or only just close, then I would be disappointed.

Guibo

There will always be a strong market for something new. For the mere fact that old things get, well, old. On a closed circuit, many people track their cars just to have fun, and learn about their cars' handling behavior. It has nothing to do with "beating" someone else, unless you're in an officially sanctioned race event (which few people are). Very few drivers actually ever track their cars and even fewer actually ever race other people.

One can still enjoy a car under the speed limit, if it's been engineered that way.
GT-R isn't exactly selling like hotcakes and has been criticized for feeling aloof at lower speeds. The GT-86/BRZ shows that there is a case for driving enjoyment as a priority over raw performance numbers or "beating the next guy." With Prius tires, it doesn't even need a slide mode. For legal reasons, a car can't exactly have a "sliding mode" but most high performance cars have a DSC/TC-off mode that allows precisely that.

jackhall99

Isn't that the truth!!!

The Highlander

And what happens when average joe does that? ends up in a wall.

Not going to argue because no matter what I say you will find a counter argument. Accept it.. the GTR is a better buy than the corvette if you are in ANY Type of competition.

Look at the video I posted earlier...

If you go to solo-1 autox or whatever, you will have a final result list... That alone, is some type of competition. The corvette is fast becoming the dreadful car the viper is. Only a pro can get out of the car what he really has to offer and sadly, as much as everyone wants believe otherwise, 80% of the corvette forum owners can't get out of the cars what they really can.

Now... 99% of the GTR owners can get out of the car what it really can do.

AT least here in PR they are selling like hotcakes! Most of them where corvette owners... my customers... no longer.

TO summarize what one customer told me about his car that got 4th in the 1/2 mile here with an astonishing 177.4 mph.

I got up... with the same tires i use EVERY single day... filled to 37psi.. hit cancel... click click and now my race map is there... filled with 104 oct.... to the track...

Did 177.4 (fastest corvette did 166). Hit cancel... click click.. back to my 91oct map. Got out.. filled up at the station.. went back home...

Guibo

I have an easier time believing that the average joe can safely slide a BRZ/GT86 than he can safely slide a GT-R...

I'm not convinced that the GT-R is the best buy for endurance racing. Unless modified, it tends to suffer overheating of the transmission and it eats tires thanks to the weight. You are quite sure the GT-R is faster than a Z06 or ZR1 in highway roll-ons? I am also not convinced the GT-R is the best option in any competition that involves beauty. (Contrary to what you might think, people do buy cars for aesthetic reasons that have nothing to do with power/performance/competition.)

But we are not debating whether some people compete. That has never been an issue. We are debating how much of the buying population ever competes and whether any market exists for driving for the sheer pleasure of it. If it's true that the GT-R is the best buy for competing, then the answer must be: Not many, since GT-R sales are just a tiny drop in the overall sportscar market. The fact that Z4s/Cayman-Boxsters/SLKs/etc even exist tells us that a market surely exists for cars with relatively poor performance/$ ratios. Ie, people (by and large) aren't competing.

I take it, then, that you only drive when you have arranged to compete with another driver ahead of time to compete on a public road? What you're telling me is that you seem to only derive pleasure when other drivers are around. Is this correct?

The Highlander

Oh.. i am convinced... want to see some videos?

Guibo

Only if the videos prove beyond any doubt your claim that "99% of the GTR owners can get out of the car what it really can do."

I find this claim pretty unbelievable considering that even within Nissan's test crew, with drivers who surely have much more experience driving closer to 10/10ths than owners, only 1 or 2 guys can extract the full 10/10ths potential of the car.

The Highlander

Yeah.. I forgot... Porsche doesn't have a DCT... Is the SLK a manual trans car? The Z4 is, but are you comparing the performance of a z4 vs the performance of a corvette? Wow.. you hold the corvette into such a low esteem.

I know I am getting bashed at "favoring" the GTR.. I get it... but the mere fact that we are not doing so well in competition means something to the brand, to me and to everyone. At these power levels the rowing of the shifts and the lack of traction really hurts the performance capability of such a fine engine and chassis.

Does the C6R have a manual trans?
Which was the fastest around the ring on the CTS-vs? The manual or the auto?

There are many things to be thought over. If GM perse wasn't competing, why take the car to the ring over and over and over?

DRLC5

Every GTR that I have looked at have sold. Some dealers are asking 10k to 15k over MSRP on the 2013s??? I want to buy a 13 but will wait until the price drops some. Also these cars used seem to be holding value quite well. The also do not produce many GTRs I was told only around 1500 were built in 2012? We have to admit that the GTR is quite a beast for such a heavy brick with 545hp it damn near runs a 10sec qtr with a 2.8 0 to 60 not many cars can do that right off the show room floor.

The Highlander

There are limitations to the statement always... but you can't argue that is much easier to drive a car like the GTR with twice the power than it is to drive a corvette with 1/2 the power. Been there, done it.. experienced it....

All you have to do is get into a GTR and drive one... you will see a lot of things the corvette does a lot better and some things that are so good that you want for the corvette!!!! If you all think the corvette is the best there is. Then GM: Cancel the C7 because the C6 is what it is and should be forever and ever.

The Highlander

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCDRX...feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EO2-x...eature=related

That is a 719rwhp zr1... that is a 723awhp GTR. which one would you choose?

Look at that.

Guibo

I think you will find the prevalence of PDK has more to do with buyers in general becoming lazier over the years, and generally increased congestion. With intelligent software that aggressively shifts to top gear, it also does better in fuel economy tests than manuals and if you think a company's bottom line isn't affected by fuel economy, you're crazy.
Nobody's bashing you for "favoring" the GT-R. I'm questioning your logic that people only buy high performance cars for the purpose of beating other people.

The driver of a C6R isn't driving it for pleasure. He's being paid to win. Now, what % of the Corvette buyer demographic is hired by GM to race Corvettes...?
I am not debating what is faster; I'm debating your emphasis on that speed.
GM takes the Corvette to the 'Ring because it's a benchmark track. No one is doubting the marketing potential of the 'Ring; it also falls nicely in hand with GM's effort to broaden Corvette sales in Europe which they've been trying to do for years. The question, as it relates to your original comment, is: Does any significant portion of the buying public choose cars purely on track performance? Considering the relatively low sales of the GT-R, we'd have to say "No." Does the prevalence of slower, even more expensive cars (and convertibles) tell us that there are possibly perfectly rational reasons for choosing a car for reasons other than performance and competition? We'd have to conclude "Yes." I don't see how you can conclude otherwise.

The GT-R has been on the market for years, yet Porsche 911 sales remain unaffected. The GT-R is surely a better performance/$ proposition than any Ferrari, yet Ferrari had record sales and profits last year. If so many compete as you say, and put such an emphasis on performance/competition, why haven't GT-R sales completely cannibalized these other sales?

The Highlander

We would need all the data that is not available on the internet to be able to determine just that.

I would agree with you if and only if the GTR ceased to exist due to poor sales. But, even then I've personally seen the movement AWAY from corvette and into the GTRs locally. Corvettes are NOT selling here like they should.

I am not going to argue with you about the racing aspect because we can always find a way to disagree, no matter what I say or what you say. We can always disagree. But just a thought... Right now one of the biggest events in the USA is the TX mile.. isn't it? What do they do there?

Competition is instinctive no matter the way you want to put it, colorize and say it doesn't exist or doesn't have to. EVERYONE In this forum has raced another person/car or whatever. Competition is what makes a brand get better, even if it is against yourself.

Guibo

It is easier, but that's not the debate. Some people will like the challenge that the Corvette presents: Because it has less traction, it might be more fun more of the time whereas in the GT-R, you might have to be traveling stupidly fast (as in license-suspending) for similar thrills. It's the same train of thought, taken to an extreme, with the GT86/BRZ. Is it your assertion that the Corvette should be exactly like the GT-R? Ie, there should be less variety in the market?
It's pretty absurd logic to think that the C6 can't be improved on. There are plenty of areas that can be improved on that have nothing to do with power and performance. Indeed, I'd argue that more hp is the last thing it needs (and people sitting on the fence with regard to Porsche and even GM's own management will likely agree).

The Highlander

I don't want more power... my case is in favor to a DCT/Auto on the Z06/ZR1 as an OPTION!