from autocar
05-11-2011, 07:01 AM
#1
Instructor
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05-11-2011, 09:58 PM
#2
Team Owner
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05-12-2011, 06:45 AM
#3
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05-12-2011, 06:52 PM
#4
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Mid-rear not necessary
It is NOT, I repeat NOT necessary, to build a mid-read engined car to compete with Ferrari or Porsche. Ferrari has an entire line of mid-front V12 cars as does Aston Martin ; so does Maseratti (spg) as does Alfa, . . . Further, Porsche is playing around with a mid-front car off their 4 door sedan. BMW's sport coups are mid-front, as are MBs.
If you spent BIG money, you could continue the C7 Corvette as a mid-front V8 and build a smaller V6 turbo mid rear on the same production line. The Corvette chassis design is that good and that flexible. NOT likely that will happen.
Most likely is mid-front V8 with STYLING going in a completely different direction.
On another post I showed where you can hear Reuss's remarks from Corvette Conti's site and read the official press release and the phone interview as he was riding in a ZR1 back to Detroit.
If you spent BIG money, you could continue the C7 Corvette as a mid-front V8 and build a smaller V6 turbo mid rear on the same production line. The Corvette chassis design is that good and that flexible. NOT likely that will happen.
Most likely is mid-front V8 with STYLING going in a completely different direction.
On another post I showed where you can hear Reuss's remarks from Corvette Conti's site and read the official press release and the phone interview as he was riding in a ZR1 back to Detroit.
05-12-2011, 11:58 PM
#6
"The goal is to make the new Corvette a truly global competitor when production starts up in 2013, according to Mark Reuss, GM’s North America president, although exact details are being closely guarded."
If finally Chevrolet is going to produce a supercar that is "world class" - that can equal the Porsche Cayman or the 911; the 2013 Corvette will sell like crazy! not only in the U.S. but in Germany and U.K too. Not many people want to buy a sport car that still has 1970s technology anymore going forward and Chevrolet know this now. I think most sport car buyers want handling and speed in the corners and AWD enchances even better this. A midengine Corvette would put it in the same league as the Ferarri, Porsche, Lambos Veyrons. AWD option would make it an sport car that can be driven year around like the 911 is. WOW! Finally after all these years of waiting for Corvette to catch up to the world in sport car technology; the 2013 could be the year!
If finally Chevrolet is going to produce a supercar that is "world class" - that can equal the Porsche Cayman or the 911; the 2013 Corvette will sell like crazy! not only in the U.S. but in Germany and U.K too. Not many people want to buy a sport car that still has 1970s technology anymore going forward and Chevrolet know this now. I think most sport car buyers want handling and speed in the corners and AWD enchances even better this. A midengine Corvette would put it in the same league as the Ferarri, Porsche, Lambos Veyrons. AWD option would make it an sport car that can be driven year around like the 911 is. WOW! Finally after all these years of waiting for Corvette to catch up to the world in sport car technology; the 2013 could be the year!
Last edited by HarryWild; 05-13-2011 at 12:03 AM.
07-10-2011, 01:41 AM
#8
"The goal is to make the new Corvette a truly global competitor when production starts up in 2013, according to Mark Reuss, GM’s North America president, although exact details are being closely guarded."
If finally Chevrolet is going to produce a supercar that is "world class" - that can equal the Porsche Cayman or the 911; the 2013 Corvette will sell like crazy! not only in the U.S. but in Germany and U.K too. Not many people want to buy a sport car that still has 1970s technology anymore going forward and Chevrolet know this now. I think most sport car buyers want handling and speed in the corners and AWD enchances even better this. A midengine Corvette would put it in the same league as the Ferarri, Porsche, Lambos Veyrons. AWD option would make it an sport car that can be driven year around like the 911 is. WOW! Finally after all these years of waiting for Corvette to catch up to the world in sport car technology; the 2013 could be the year!
If finally Chevrolet is going to produce a supercar that is "world class" - that can equal the Porsche Cayman or the 911; the 2013 Corvette will sell like crazy! not only in the U.S. but in Germany and U.K too. Not many people want to buy a sport car that still has 1970s technology anymore going forward and Chevrolet know this now. I think most sport car buyers want handling and speed in the corners and AWD enchances even better this. A midengine Corvette would put it in the same league as the Ferarri, Porsche, Lambos Veyrons. AWD option would make it an sport car that can be driven year around like the 911 is. WOW! Finally after all these years of waiting for Corvette to catch up to the world in sport car technology; the 2013 could be the year!
I know a Porsche tech, when he describes to me what the cost of maintaining & fixing those cars, it is a joke. No one in their right mind that works for a living would buy one.
07-10-2011, 06:43 PM
#9
Drifting
Name one mid engine super car any of us on this forum can afford new. World class is all fine and well, but if you design a car that costs more than your target buyer can afford, it's a bad move. Also, AWD does NOT mean it can be driven year round, in snow. Think about how low the GTR sits. You think that thing is going anywhere in the snow without a plow on the front of it? Plus, even with snow tires, sports cars make too much torque to drive, unles you start out in 3rd...something I don't suggest. AWD also does not equal better handling... Just look at the GTRs racing the JGTC...converted to full rwd. All awd does is make the car easier to handle by less exp drivers, because it's more stable, less prone to overstear.
07-10-2011, 06:50 PM
#10
Team Owner
Not this again.... I should make a list of all the people who claim Corvette will go AWD, V6 Twin turbo, Rear/Mid engine, and spam their in-boxes once they are proven to be wrong when the C7 comes out.
There is no advantage to doing any of those things. The Corvette gets better fuel economy, is cheaper, has more performance, is more reliable, and as a final straw, is more practical than any of it's competitors.
There is no advantage to doing any of those things. The Corvette gets better fuel economy, is cheaper, has more performance, is more reliable, and as a final straw, is more practical than any of it's competitors.
07-10-2011, 08:44 PM
#11
Race Director
Already there!!
"The goal is to make the new Corvette a truly global competitor when production starts up in 2013, according to Mark Reuss, GM’s North America president, although exact details are being closely guarded."
If finally Chevrolet is going to produce a supercar that is "world class" - that can equal the Porsche Cayman or the 911; the 2013 Corvette will sell like crazy! not only in the U.S. but in Germany and U.K too. Not many people want to buy a sport car that still has 1970s technology anymore going forward and Chevrolet know this now. I think most sport car buyers want handling and speed in the corners and AWD enchances even better this. A midengine Corvette would put it in the same league as the Ferarri, Porsche, Lambos Veyrons. AWD option would make it an sport car that can be driven year around like the 911 is. WOW! Finally after all these years of waiting for Corvette to catch up to the world in sport car technology; the 2013 could be the year!
If finally Chevrolet is going to produce a supercar that is "world class" - that can equal the Porsche Cayman or the 911; the 2013 Corvette will sell like crazy! not only in the U.S. but in Germany and U.K too. Not many people want to buy a sport car that still has 1970s technology anymore going forward and Chevrolet know this now. I think most sport car buyers want handling and speed in the corners and AWD enchances even better this. A midengine Corvette would put it in the same league as the Ferarri, Porsche, Lambos Veyrons. AWD option would make it an sport car that can be driven year around like the 911 is. WOW! Finally after all these years of waiting for Corvette to catch up to the world in sport car technology; the 2013 could be the year!
The base C6 weighs less than, is shorter than, accelerates quicker than, has more power than, gets better fuel economy than, and costs less than the base 911. I don't think they need to "equal" something that they are already superior to!The C6 is already a world class car. I'm sure the C7 will be even better.
07-11-2011, 02:58 AM
#13
You might want to check the facts. The base C6 weighs less than, is shorter than, accelerates quicker than, has more power than, gets better fuel economy than, and costs less than the base 911. I don't think they need to "equal" something that they are already superior to!
The C6 is already a world class car. I'm sure the C7 will be even better.
The base C6 weighs less than, is shorter than, accelerates quicker than, has more power than, gets better fuel economy than, and costs less than the base 911. I don't think they need to "equal" something that they are already superior to!The C6 is already a world class car. I'm sure the C7 will be even better.
Reading the Autocar article, it's pretty obvious GM execs aren't smug in their "superiority" when they say the Corvette isn't a global competitor and that its interior is a disappointment. To be a truly world class car, the Corvette has to be competitive against perceived competitors in all world markets, not barely outpunching Porsche sports car sales on home market where it has a natural price advantage. This means: No shortcuts in quality and interior materials for the sake of bang-for-buck. The world market, and indeed much of the US market, demands more than this.
For fuel economy, the Corvette isn't better than the base 911. It gets 16/26 city/hwy where the 911 gets 18/25, even without a Skip-Shift bandaid that infuriates many Corvette owners. In the UK/Euro market, the Corvette is worse in their standardized testing.
Corvette C6 coupe
CO2 emissions 317 g/km
Overall economy, imperial units: 21.1 mpg
UK Tax band: M (£435.00 per 12 months)
Estimated fuel cost: £2896
Metric consumption, avg: 13.4L/100km
911 Carrera
CO2 emissions 225 g/km
Overall economy, imperial units: 29.4 mpg
Tax band: K (£245.00 per 12 months)
Estimated annual fuel cost: £2078
Metric consumption, avg: 9.6L/100km
07-11-2011, 10:09 AM
#14
Drifting
I think the issue a lot of people are having is, many of us former/current/potential future owners of corvettes are borderline on the affordability...meaning, we can JUST barely make this dream car a reality. Making more like Porsche and Ferrari in order to compete with those in a global market, while maybe being good for GM, is NOT good for those of us who would then no longer be in the running for corvette ownership. Right or wrong doesn't come into it, it is just one more aspect of the dying middle class in this country.
On a PERSONAL note from me, however...I think it's dead wrong. I think that goes against what the damn car is all about in the first place...that is, being an affordable super car.
I'm not going to argue if making the car more appealing world wide is a good move for GM, financially. But if doing so puts the car that much closer in price range to it's competition, it relegates the car to a more exotic status, and in my opinion, we have WAY too many wall calender exotics already. Think about it.
On a PERSONAL note from me, however...I think it's dead wrong. I think that goes against what the damn car is all about in the first place...that is, being an affordable super car.
I'm not going to argue if making the car more appealing world wide is a good move for GM, financially. But if doing so puts the car that much closer in price range to it's competition, it relegates the car to a more exotic status, and in my opinion, we have WAY too many wall calender exotics already. Think about it.
07-11-2011, 10:40 AM
#15
Instructor
If you read alot of the comments about the more recent Corvette's, what I personally see is what GM's actual problem is.
PERCEPTION.
They can make a great car, but there is a general perception that it's not as good as Import Brand X. The Corvette is in that category, and they only have themselves to blame. Like almost every single GM car I've ever owned / driven, they had a good idea, and failed to execute. They cheaped out on the "interface" at every chance, and even if it looks great, and goes fast, and gets great gas mileage, with excellent reliability, as soon as you sit in it you are immediately let down.
So the new C7 HAS to fix that, or else forget it. It can't have an interior "as nice as" a P car, it has to be better. Because if the perception is that they are just playing catch-up, then they will always be perceived as being a "less than" type of car. And being the premiere car for GM, the company image follows right along.
IMHO they could have fixed it all for GM in 1997 had they given the buyer a little more credit and made an interior that matches an exotic car. They didn't, and maybe it's GM arrogance, maybe it's bean counters, but they've had an opportunity to fix it every year and put it all behind them, and they continue to fail. Every year.
I sincerely hope they start to get it right with the C7, but I won't hold my breath. I'll bet that there will be a whole bunch of things that if they had one single regular guy sit in the car for a couple hours pre-production he'd tell them he can't stand about the car. But they'll have employees, on their payroll, afraid to complain about it, sit there and tell them it's great...
PERCEPTION.
They can make a great car, but there is a general perception that it's not as good as Import Brand X. The Corvette is in that category, and they only have themselves to blame. Like almost every single GM car I've ever owned / driven, they had a good idea, and failed to execute. They cheaped out on the "interface" at every chance, and even if it looks great, and goes fast, and gets great gas mileage, with excellent reliability, as soon as you sit in it you are immediately let down.
So the new C7 HAS to fix that, or else forget it. It can't have an interior "as nice as" a P car, it has to be better. Because if the perception is that they are just playing catch-up, then they will always be perceived as being a "less than" type of car. And being the premiere car for GM, the company image follows right along.
IMHO they could have fixed it all for GM in 1997 had they given the buyer a little more credit and made an interior that matches an exotic car. They didn't, and maybe it's GM arrogance, maybe it's bean counters, but they've had an opportunity to fix it every year and put it all behind them, and they continue to fail. Every year.
I sincerely hope they start to get it right with the C7, but I won't hold my breath. I'll bet that there will be a whole bunch of things that if they had one single regular guy sit in the car for a couple hours pre-production he'd tell them he can't stand about the car. But they'll have employees, on their payroll, afraid to complain about it, sit there and tell them it's great...
07-11-2011, 12:20 PM
#17
Le Mans Master
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07-11-2011, 04:12 PM
#18
Race Director
Corvette gives one a choice!
.....and that its interior is a disappointment. To be a truly world class car, the Corvette has to be competitive against perceived competitors in all world markets, not barely outpunching Porsche sports car sales on home market where it has a natural price advantage. This means: No shortcuts in quality and interior materials for the sake of bang-for-buck. The world market, and indeed much of the US market, demands more than this.
Well, in case you hadn't noticed, you can go upmarket on the Corvette interior if you want to spend the money. Just order the 4LT option and get all the leather and linen you want. Those who do want the "bang for the buck" - like me - don't have to spend that kind of money to have world class performance! Me - I'm perfectly happy with my 3LT option.
07-11-2011, 06:00 PM
#19
Regarding affordability, I suppose there could always be a decontented version to sastisfy the more traditionalist market. Before Infiniti (largely aimed at US market) started its current campaign into the heart of Europe, it upgraded its interior quality to suit that market. This had zero effect on the pricing of Infinitis for the US market. Whether Infiniti succeeds there goes beyond just the interior: They have to convince the Europeans that their car is every bit as good in terms of driving dynamics on European roads, with an array of engine choices (including diesel) that people in that market take for granted. In the end, they'll probably find what Cadillac have found: To truly make "an equal," your pricing advantage all but deteriorates. Those cars cost more because people are willing to pay more, and people are only willing to pay more if you deliver a truly equal product in most/all areas.
4LT is step up, but in terms of quality, choice of colors, and customization, it's nowhere near what you can specify in a Porsche. I mean, just look at the options in Leather you can get for the Boxster (which starts out almost $1k less than the base Corvette coupe):
Soft Ruffled Leather on Seats
Three-Spoke Multi-Function Steering Wheel
SportDesign Steering Wheel
Steering Wheel Rim with Deviating Stitching
Steering Column Casing in Leather
Additional Interior Package in Leather
Door Finishers in Leather
Door Opener in Leather
Instrument Surround in Leather
Defroster Air Vents in Leather
Defroster Trim in Leather
A-Pillar Leather Interior Package
Interior Package in Cayman Look Leather
Sun Visors in Leather
Sun Visors in Leather, Two-Tone
Rear View Mirror in Leather
Gear Lever / PDK Selector Trim in Leather
Switch Panel Trim Strip in Leather
Gear Lever Trim in Leather
PDK Gear Selector Gate Surround in Leather
PCM Package in Leather
Porsche Crest Embossed on Headrests
Center Console in Leather
Seat Belt Buckles in Leather
Storage Bin Lid in Leather with Porsche Crest
Clothes Hook on Seat Backrest in Leather
Fuse Box Cover in Leather
Inner Door Sill Guards in Leather
Floor Mats with Leather Edging
Floor Mats with Colored Logo and Leather Edging
Leather is just one of the trim options. There are also options in wood, Alcantara, aluminum, and carbon fiber. And the CF that Porsche uses is leagues ahead of the 2D print that GM uses.
Obviously, GM won't need such options as listed above. A perfectly happy middle ground exists (BMW 3-Series or Z4 level) that would edge the Corvette closer to a truly world-class level in terms of the overall package. The CTS-V seems much closer to its class competitors in this regard.
Another factor in what constitutes a "world class" car is the subjective feel of the components, the feeling of precision. The '08 Corvette got revisions to address some of this, but still isn't quite up there yet. Which is a shame because the foundation of the Corvette appears to be leagues ahead of class competitors in some key areas: it's got the lightest base weight for cars with similar power, likely lower CoG than anything from the likes of BMW/Jaguar/Mercedes, and years of magnetic suspension tuning over the competition. Then there is the natural pricing advantage due to the weaker US dollar.
Well, in case you hadn't noticed, you can go upmarket on the Corvette interior if you want to spend the money. Just order the 4LT option and get all the leather and linen you want. Those who do want the "bang for the buck" - like me - don't have to spend that kind of money to have world class performance! Me - I'm perfectly happy with my 3LT option.
Soft Ruffled Leather on Seats
Three-Spoke Multi-Function Steering Wheel
SportDesign Steering Wheel
Steering Wheel Rim with Deviating Stitching
Steering Column Casing in Leather
Additional Interior Package in Leather
Door Finishers in Leather
Door Opener in Leather
Instrument Surround in Leather
Defroster Air Vents in Leather
Defroster Trim in Leather
A-Pillar Leather Interior Package
Interior Package in Cayman Look Leather
Sun Visors in Leather
Sun Visors in Leather, Two-Tone
Rear View Mirror in Leather
Gear Lever / PDK Selector Trim in Leather
Switch Panel Trim Strip in Leather
Gear Lever Trim in Leather
PDK Gear Selector Gate Surround in Leather
PCM Package in Leather
Porsche Crest Embossed on Headrests
Center Console in Leather
Seat Belt Buckles in Leather
Storage Bin Lid in Leather with Porsche Crest
Clothes Hook on Seat Backrest in Leather
Fuse Box Cover in Leather
Inner Door Sill Guards in Leather
Floor Mats with Leather Edging
Floor Mats with Colored Logo and Leather Edging
Leather is just one of the trim options. There are also options in wood, Alcantara, aluminum, and carbon fiber. And the CF that Porsche uses is leagues ahead of the 2D print that GM uses.
Obviously, GM won't need such options as listed above. A perfectly happy middle ground exists (BMW 3-Series or Z4 level) that would edge the Corvette closer to a truly world-class level in terms of the overall package. The CTS-V seems much closer to its class competitors in this regard.
Another factor in what constitutes a "world class" car is the subjective feel of the components, the feeling of precision. The '08 Corvette got revisions to address some of this, but still isn't quite up there yet. Which is a shame because the foundation of the Corvette appears to be leagues ahead of class competitors in some key areas: it's got the lightest base weight for cars with similar power, likely lower CoG than anything from the likes of BMW/Jaguar/Mercedes, and years of magnetic suspension tuning over the competition. Then there is the natural pricing advantage due to the weaker US dollar.
07-11-2011, 07:11 PM
#20
Safety Car
Regarding affordability, I suppose there could always be a decontented version to sastisfy the more traditionalist market. Before Infiniti (largely aimed at US market) started its current campaign into the heart of Europe, it upgraded its interior quality to suit that market. This had zero effect on the pricing of Infinitis for the US market. Whether Infiniti succeeds there goes beyond just the interior: They have to convince the Europeans that their car is every bit as good in terms of driving dynamics on European roads, with an array of engine choices (including diesel) that people in that market take for granted. In the end, they'll probably find what Cadillac have found: To truly make "an equal," your pricing advantage all but deteriorates. Those cars cost more because people are willing to pay more, and people are only willing to pay more if you deliver a truly equal product in most/all areas.
4LT is step up, but in terms of quality, choice of colors, and customization, it's nowhere near what you can specify in a Porsche. I mean, just look at the options in Leather you can get for the Boxster (which starts out almost $1k less than the base Corvette coupe):
Soft Ruffled Leather on Seats
Three-Spoke Multi-Function Steering Wheel
SportDesign Steering Wheel
Steering Wheel Rim with Deviating Stitching
Steering Column Casing in Leather
Additional Interior Package in Leather
Door Finishers in Leather
Door Opener in Leather
Instrument Surround in Leather
Defroster Air Vents in Leather
Defroster Trim in Leather
A-Pillar Leather Interior Package
Interior Package in Cayman Look Leather
Sun Visors in Leather
Sun Visors in Leather, Two-Tone
Rear View Mirror in Leather
Gear Lever / PDK Selector Trim in Leather
Switch Panel Trim Strip in Leather
Gear Lever Trim in Leather
PDK Gear Selector Gate Surround in Leather
PCM Package in Leather
Porsche Crest Embossed on Headrests
Center Console in Leather
Seat Belt Buckles in Leather
Storage Bin Lid in Leather with Porsche Crest
Clothes Hook on Seat Backrest in Leather
Fuse Box Cover in Leather
Inner Door Sill Guards in Leather
Floor Mats with Leather Edging
Floor Mats with Colored Logo and Leather Edging
Leather is just one of the trim options. There are also options in wood, Alcantara, aluminum, and carbon fiber. And the CF that Porsche uses is leagues ahead of the 2D print that GM uses.
Obviously, GM won't need such options as listed above. A perfectly happy middle ground exists (BMW 3-Series or Z4 level) that would edge the Corvette closer to a truly world-class level in terms of the overall package. The CTS-V seems much closer to its class competitors in this regard.
Another factor in what constitutes a "world class" car is the subjective feel of the components, the feeling of precision. The '08 Corvette got revisions to address some of this, but still isn't quite up there yet. Which is a shame because the foundation of the Corvette appears to be leagues ahead of class competitors in some key areas: it's got the lightest base weight for cars with similar power, likely lower CoG than anything from the likes of BMW/Jaguar/Mercedes, and years of magnetic suspension tuning over the competition. Then there is the natural pricing advantage due to the weaker US dollar.
4LT is step up, but in terms of quality, choice of colors, and customization, it's nowhere near what you can specify in a Porsche. I mean, just look at the options in Leather you can get for the Boxster (which starts out almost $1k less than the base Corvette coupe):
Soft Ruffled Leather on Seats
Three-Spoke Multi-Function Steering Wheel
SportDesign Steering Wheel
Steering Wheel Rim with Deviating Stitching
Steering Column Casing in Leather
Additional Interior Package in Leather
Door Finishers in Leather
Door Opener in Leather
Instrument Surround in Leather
Defroster Air Vents in Leather
Defroster Trim in Leather
A-Pillar Leather Interior Package
Interior Package in Cayman Look Leather
Sun Visors in Leather
Sun Visors in Leather, Two-Tone
Rear View Mirror in Leather
Gear Lever / PDK Selector Trim in Leather
Switch Panel Trim Strip in Leather
Gear Lever Trim in Leather
PDK Gear Selector Gate Surround in Leather
PCM Package in Leather
Porsche Crest Embossed on Headrests
Center Console in Leather
Seat Belt Buckles in Leather
Storage Bin Lid in Leather with Porsche Crest
Clothes Hook on Seat Backrest in Leather
Fuse Box Cover in Leather
Inner Door Sill Guards in Leather
Floor Mats with Leather Edging
Floor Mats with Colored Logo and Leather Edging
Leather is just one of the trim options. There are also options in wood, Alcantara, aluminum, and carbon fiber. And the CF that Porsche uses is leagues ahead of the 2D print that GM uses.
Obviously, GM won't need such options as listed above. A perfectly happy middle ground exists (BMW 3-Series or Z4 level) that would edge the Corvette closer to a truly world-class level in terms of the overall package. The CTS-V seems much closer to its class competitors in this regard.
Another factor in what constitutes a "world class" car is the subjective feel of the components, the feeling of precision. The '08 Corvette got revisions to address some of this, but still isn't quite up there yet. Which is a shame because the foundation of the Corvette appears to be leagues ahead of class competitors in some key areas: it's got the lightest base weight for cars with similar power, likely lower CoG than anything from the likes of BMW/Jaguar/Mercedes, and years of magnetic suspension tuning over the competition. Then there is the natural pricing advantage due to the weaker US dollar.