jsbella

I'm curious as to how you all would feel about a base C7 (so, the LT models) equipped with a ~450hp Twin Turbo V6, instead of a V8.

There's some speculation along those lines, I believe Popular Mechanics mentioned it, and claimed to have "sources". The only fact here is that nobody knows for sure, but I wondered how you all would feel about it.

02MillenniumVette

I would be extremely dissapointed if GM put a 6 cylinder back in the Corvette period. I personally wouldnt buy one. I like the sound of the V8 too much. Remember the old saying, "theres no replacement for displacement".

marinehacker202

There is no replacing the experience of a high output v8, however, I don't think a TT V6 would keep me from getting a C7 (assuming, of course, I could afford one :P) That setup seems to be working for Nissan GT-R.
I know wat you're thinking:
"Gasp! Did he just take the side of Nissan's GT-R?"
No, Corvette all the way, but you can't deny the performance of the GT-R

Jinx

Why would GM use a more complicated and probably more expensive motor in the base car? Is there really a legion of potential Corvette buyers who would hop on board if only there was a slightly lower-end version that maybe got slightly better fuel economy?

When C7 debuts, there will be only one engine under the hood. It will be a pushrod V8. Following years might see a significantly higher-end model a la Z06 or ZR1 with a more powerful engine derived from the base V8.

The standard Corvette will have something other than a pushrod V8 when GM can't justify building one for any other vehicle (including trucks) and the current design becomes cost prohibitive to update for Corvette-only use -- and not one minute sooner.

marinehacker202

That's certainly true Jinx, a TT V6 wouldn't be feasible for a Corvette, but what if? I mean, look at Ford, there is a lot of talk about their EcoBoost line getting put in the Mustang.
I suppose though the Camaro would probably be more likely to get a Twin Turbo setup first, since the base model is V6.

Jinx

I don't see it happening for Camaro either. Maybe my perception of the relative economics of a turbo DOHC V6 and the pushrod V8 are incorrect, but it seems reasonable that the latter powerplant is cheaper to build and support... and would remain so even if you added direct injection and cylinder deactivation (the latter is already on the AT Camaro), at which point fuel economy differences probably aren't much -- not enough to make a difference to the target buyer.

I could see Ford doing it in the Mustang, to cater to a different market that fancies such a powerplant. Mustang has the 84 SVO as a historical reference point, and Ford has a big investment in the EcoBoost brand. But they still have trucks and have built a new motor for them, and it'll fit the Mustang, so they'll keep building V8 Mustangs. As for the same thing happening to Camaro, I don't think GM has the motivation, interest, or frankly the daring to offer it, nevermind the engine on the shelf in the first place.

I think until somebody makes the case that forcefed V6s make more economic sense than naturally-aspirated V8s in pickup trucks (which remain huge volume sellers), we'll continue to see those V8s in rear-drive performance cars too. I think recent market pressure has, if anything, made powerplant priorities for pickup trucks MORE like that for cars (i.e. a little more cost for lighter weight and better efficiency is justified), so I don't think the truck V8s will be allowed to fall far behind the advances applied to front-drive car engines, and those V8s will remain the best choice for the kinds of cars we love.

Unless some jacka$$ on Capitol Hill decides that displacement-based taxes/limits makes sense, and then we're all screwed.

All that said... "what if?" I'd rather have an equivalently-modern and powerful V8. Only way a turbo V6 is better in my book is if the available V8 is a stagnant design by comparison -- and that doesn't mean the turbo V6 is good so much as the V8 is bad.

.Jinx

marinehacker202

Well said.

02MillenniumVette

Why would Camaro get it first? Their base model has always been a V6. Corvettes has always been a V8 since '56. The 6 cylinder is what almost killed Corvette to begin with so why would you even want to put a V6 or a TT V6 in one? I know a lot has changed since the beginning of the Vette but I dont see it happening.

marinehacker202

First, I guess I should set this straight so I don't end up getting flamed. I love the GM V8. I think we all would agree that a modern V6 Corvette would be a wrong move for GM. But someone has to play on that side of the fence, or this thread would be filled with
"yeah, I would never buy a V6 Corvette"
The fact that the Camaro's base engine is V6 is exactly why I think that if any model were to get a Twin Turbo V6 setup, it would be the Camaro. Not for the base, of course, but for the higher trims. It wouldn't be such as ridiculous to add Turbos to an engine that is already being used in the vehicle, than to offer it in a platform not designed for it. If the Camaro survives long enough to have another body style, what if GM builds it on a smaller platform? A TT V6 option wouldn't be unreasonable at all. It would just end up the Saturn Sky's big brother

02MillenniumVette

I understand what your saying but at the same time, Camaro has always shared the V8 that Corvette got. So again I dont see it happening. If the C7 did come with a TT V6 then yea the Camaro would probably get it also for the SS model.

jsbella

Thanks for the responses...I really don't want a Turbo V6 instead of a pushrod 8. I apologize for not making tha clearer. In fact, there's not a single engine on the planet right now that I'm more interested in than the Gen V Chevy Small Blocks.....This is just a hypothetical scenario that a few --and I stress the quotations-- "sources" have mentioned, and I figured would make for a good debate.

Ford intends to put a Turbo V6 in their trucks, this has been documented. And there's serious talk of the adding an 'Ecoboost' Mustang model in between the 2011 base V6 and GT, too. Further our Camaro 'sources' on Camaro5.com have told us of a 3.8L turbocharged V6 engine that's undergoing research and testing for that car, too. I only mention this as indirect evidence that the prospect of a Twin-Turbo sports car is not impossible.

Again, don't construe anything I'm about to say as though I'd rather have a Boosted V6 instead of a good OHC V8s. I don't.

In the spirit of continuing this conversation, please consider these points.

--Turbocharged V6s give nothing up in torque to their V8 counterparts.

--They are much more easily modified for more power. As with manufacturer tunes for the Solstice and Cobalt turbo models, you can just "turn up the boost" for 20% + more power (and keep your warranty!!).

--They are more easily packaged into smaller vehicles, due to the turbochargers not inherently "attached" to the engine. You can plumb around things and move them with more flexibility.

--They have the potential to be FAR more fuel efficient than equivilant powered V8s. Notice I said potential. As in the case of the Cobalt, it's base 30mpg rating (before 'XFE') was maintained in the turbo SS version, but it gained 100 hp and ft/lbs. So, it's not unreasonable to expect an coupe and convertible model of the C7 get a 30+ mpg rating, while maintaining it's 400+ hp/torque.

I see the last point as the primary rationale behind this move, if ever the Corvette team decided to do it.

Thoughts?

ANTIVNOM

I will not buy a Corvette (or a Mustang for that matter) that does not have a V8 engine. I don't care if it makes 1000HP, if it does not have 8 cylinders I do not want it.

LIVetteFan

I think you are correct on all of your points re: the advantages of a tt-v6 and I'm sure the c7 powertrain team is considering it. I would never admit it outside the forum but 911 Turbo and GT-R prove you can have world-class performance with a V6. Having said that I think the chance of a v6 in the C7 is slim to none. Changing over would be a chancy move for GM, and they are simply not going to mess with the success they have had with the vette, or alienate the loyal customer base by turning its back on it's long V8 history. The C7 will be an evolution from the current car. GM doesn't have the money or need to take the car in a new directrion. Clearly the C7 will lbe slightly smaller, probably a few hundred pounds lighter, about the same $, and powered by a new smaller displacement V8. The E85 5.5L engine that will power the 2010 C6R GT2 car should be able to make the mid 400 hp that would give the C7 an improved power to weight ratio while still improving MPG enough to keep the C7 clear of gas-guzzler taxes. GM does not need the C7 to get Prius MPG, it does not account for enough sales to effect it's CAFE numbers.

Racer X

They can provide the power. However, I wonder what is the fuel economy of those cars versus the Corvette? Real world, everyday use.

I think I already know the answer

Jinx

jsbella: My thought is that the "sources" for anything but a pushrod V8 in Corvette are morons, clinging to those few desperate days months ago when somebody actually floated the idea that the next Corvette could be a Kappa. Everything else you've put forth is interesting but more pie-in-the-sky than C7 at this point.

Ford intends a lot of things... but the F150 doesn't have an EcoBoost V6 yet. It's reasonable to believe such a beast will see the light of day, because Ford has a lot invested in the EcoBoost brand, but it's quite another thing to think it'll still be around five years later or it'll have killed the V8.

As for the potential to be FAR more fuel efficient than EQUIVALENT V8 powertrains, we're years from even seeing that scenario put to the test. Remember, the current rash of turbo sixes (and turbo four underhood of the departed Cobalt SS, Sky, and Solstice) have had technology applied to them that hasn't yet been applied to the domestic V8s.

"Turbo V6s give nothing up in torque to their V8 counterparts." Are you sure? I say there's insufficient sample size. You're not comparing Ford's cutting-edge EcoBoost to its long-in-the-tooth 4.6L, are you? Or Godzilla's motor to the base Vette?

"They are much more easily modified for more power." You don't really think nobody's going to notice that you've turned up the boost when you attempt to use that warranty on your damaged motor, do you? There's no such thing as a free lunch. The Turbo V6s that give nothing up in torque to their V8 counterparts will be highly tuned from the factory, and those guys are wise to warranty shenanigans. The days of the Eclipse GSX and Supra Turbo are behind us. And you can get big power boosts out of NA V8s too, if you don't care about longevity. Nitrous, anyone? And don't forget, for really serious power, the NA V8 can still take a turbo or supercharger and go where that smaller V6 can't follow...

"They are more easily packaged into smaller vehicles" -- often, but not always. A pushrod V8 is longer but vertically compact. And the turbo plumbing has *some* packaging flexibility but it still takes up space. And this is only an issue for the next generation anyway; present Camaro and Mustang are designed for V8s. You don't really think a next-generation Camaro or Mustang is coming soon, do you? One that's been designed with an engine bay too stubby for a V8? That implies a serious change in mission, not to mention styling. Camaro will disappear before it's built that way. Seriously, if Chevrolet's going to build an I4/V6-only 2+2 sporty car, they'll give it a different name, or go dark for five years first. As for Mustang... Ford has no suitable donor chassis, unless you think Probe Take Two is imminent, and I doubt they're going to invest big bucks in radical changes to the Mustang's unique platform as long as it still sells.

So, yeah, all this Turbo V6 action is interesting, but the case for dropping the V8 from Camaro and Mustang in the near future just isn't there.

And the Corvette's identity is so firmly planted in the V8 that, as I said before, it'll lose its V8 only when GM can't afford to maintain the design. Your suggestion that fuel economy might push the issue ignores the fact that Corvette is already a fuel-economy star among its peers... and its sales volume isn't significant enough to cause a CAFE panic, even if it does have to sacrifice a little efficiency in the name of keeping its identity.

The only scenario where I see the death of domestic V8 performance in the nearer-than-flights-of-fancy future is one in which the government flat-out mandates minimum fuel economy per vehicle (not fleet average) at absurd levels with no gas-guzzler-tax exceptions...

...which the People's Republic of California is certainly going to try, but those Birkenstock-bedecked a$$hats forget there's still serious car-loving and prestige-loving contingents to the culture, and once folks realize the impact of ratcheting down consumption limits there's going to be riots in the streets.

So, not to be hostile, but until there's some evidence that pickup trucks are going to lose their V8s or the ponycars are going to be replaced by small-sedan-platform-sharing coupes -- and before you start posting links, keep in mind that most talk of future product plans in this age of instablogging is outsider conjecture heaped upon the back of the faintest sliver of real news -- all this V8-bowing-to-turbo-V6 talk for domestic performance cars is either Ford FlavorAid consumption or fear-mongering.

And BTW, the Porsche doesn't have a turbo V6. That's a flat-six, and it's there because it's part of the 911 DNA. The Turbo V6 in Godzilla? Same story. It's not that geeks with a clean sheet of paper chose a blown six for inherent superiority; those cars have those motors because that's what they had to work with.

Still, I think an EcoBoost V6 Mustang "welterweight" could be cool. Import buyers might cross the line for it.

.Jinx

jsbella

Again...I want a V8 C7, and I agree with you wholeheartedly -- that's what it'll be!. Like I said -- the mere mention of this sort of powertrain in the C7 was worth the effort, in my opinion, to discuss it and 'test the waters'.

Just a few things, though...

I agree, there' aren't enough to make such an absolute statement like I did. I was looking at aftermarket turbocharged applications, and I noticed that the systems almost never lacked in the torque dept as compared to the net hp increase. I was basically generalizing the "nature of the turbo".


To be fair, how is that different from adding a supercharger, or aggressive cam...everything has the potential to blow up the engine...I just mentioned the ease of increasing hp on a vehicle of this nature...not the actual ability....though I must mention, GM came out with a $600 tune for the LNF vehicles that bumped power well over stock numbers...I forget details, but the warranty was maintained.


Well...I can't speak for Mustang...but in ~5-8 years when the Camaro is due for an update (which if sales keeps up, will be a guarantee)...the only platform suitable will likely be Alpha. Which is a "baby" Zeta. This platform intends to compliment Zeta as a lighter, smaller vehicle. I didn't design the thing, but rumor has it that a V8 won't fit very easily at all. That, and recent trends indicate younger buyers are going for Camaro, as opposed to nostalgic old-timers...this leaves the door open for a non-traditional powertrain. So I suspect it won't disappear before at least "trying on" a non-V8 powertrain lineup. Though....I have absolutely no idea...this is nothing more than conjecture.

I agree with this more absolutely than anything else said.


Oh, and please, call me Joe.

DaddySS

Put a V6 in it and call it a Chevette, Corvettes are V8s period!

tomzarbo

I have only owned a C6 Vette for just over 3 months, but I am already amazed at the power of the LS2 engine. It has torque down low that I've never felt before.

It also achieves excellent gas mileage -- on a recent trip to Ohio from NJ, Dad and I (close to 600 lbs between us) achieved 27.5 mpg to, and 31.5 mpg from, including many hills -- and this was with the air on, and the top down/windows up. Astounding. And even in 6th gear, the car still pulled away from all other cars up the steep hills at over 65 mph without downshifting to 5th.

Although smaller displacement turbo engines have the capacity to achieve excellent mileage, most don't seem to, at least in Car and Driver tests -- with the exception of some BMW turbo'd cars. I think for me, the Vette's V-8 has so much torque down low, that I don't have to goose it as much to get the "Push in the back" feel.

If GM could make the smaller powerplant have a similar feel to what the vette has now, I'd be okay with it. I have a late model Altima with the VQ V-6 and it sounds nice ripping along, so I'm cool with that.

But I don't think there is much to be gained by going to a 6 cyl. model in terms of MPG, other than having more compact packaging options.

Hopefully, GM continues to have their minds in the right place with the continued development of the Vette - it has always been GM's bright spot. If you ask me -- they have made excellent choices regarding the Vette.

TomZ

john_uk

I just noticed on some vids posted in this forum of the concept car, on the engine 'Hybrid' can be seen clearly. There's now strict emission rules in Europe, all car manufactures that run large powertrains are heading down the Hybrid route including; Audi, Merc, BMW. They are still using V8's but having Electric motors too, thus keeping down the emissions.

My guess it will be a Hybrid so we can hang on to our V8's!! This also ties in with GM's move with Volt etc (also GM's quest to sell more Vetts in Europe).

Audi have avery clever Hybrid system where the electric motors are build into the gearbox & lightweight slim batteries under the centre of the car keeping the weigh distribution balanced.

jsbella

It most likely won't be a hybrid...the concept's "hybrid" system consists of badging only...to display an ultra-futuristic powertrain setup. I don't think the technology is inexpensive enough yet to make the mainstream Corvette a hybrid. Plus, a C7 Vette with a Direct-Injection engine has a fighting chance to escape those emissions rules, or at least not be heavily penalized by them. One of the major benefits almost never mentioned about Direct Injection is the drastic reduction in harmful emissions.

That Hybrid system of Audi's you mention sounds incredibly similar to GM's dual-mode Hybrid system it co-developed with BMW...