C7 base powertrain
08-24-2009, 09:48 AM
#41
Burning Brakes
Corvettes should stay as a V8.Twin Turbo V6 is a waste.
A bit off topic but GM doesn't need to be putting out lower performance 'Vettes that are affordable to the average shmuck or else it will be like a Mustang.
A bit off topic but GM doesn't need to be putting out lower performance 'Vettes that are affordable to the average shmuck or else it will be like a Mustang.
08-24-2009, 07:43 PM
#42
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Actually, the scenario I outlined would probably be a little more expensive than traditional V8 methods, and performance would not suffer a tenth of a second.
08-25-2009, 02:18 AM
#43
Burning Brakes
If they start TTing engines for the owners, what else will they start slapping in for us? We probably can fnid something better out there and end up throwing it out anyway. Not worth the money then...
So if the base model is 450HP, what is the next model up going to be? Can't be a standard V8, and if it is, it'd have to be one hell of an engine to prove that its better than the base and worth the price difference...
If that's the case, I think it (the next model above base) SHOULD be better than the C6 Z06 just because of the huge leap they did from the C5Z06 and the C6Z06 performance (100 HP).
I'm sure we're all expecting something at least half way as impressive. Time for something to replace the LS7...
Last edited by ls2kev; 08-25-2009 at 02:26 AM.
08-25-2009, 07:39 AM
#44
Racer
at the end of the day, it's unlikely any TT V6 would be smaller/lighter than any LSx engine (when you add up the weight of the turbo manifolds, piping, etc)
and in the corvette's case, you have to have a very low profile engine (from the crank centerline to the top of the intake or cylinder head). hard(er) to do with large/tall DOHC
08-25-2009, 11:27 AM
#45
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Given that the C7 is supposed to compete with lower and mid range super cars - cars that have v8s, v10s, and sometimes v12s - I think a v6 just wont seem cool enough against those type of cars. With that said, direct injection seems to have made Porsche engines more efficient and powerful compared to previous engines and I'm sure the basic architecture has remained the same (with an increase of displacement to boot) just as many hope happens with the "small block" v8.
Edit: Comparison with a 2001 911 and 2009 911 S (both have 6 speed manuals) ...Just for demonstrative purposes.
Year:............................2001 /// 2009
Displacement:.................3.4 /// 3.8
Power:..........................300 /// 385
Torque:.........................258 /// 310
Mileage:..15 city, 23 highway /// 18 city, 25 highway
All this while gaining 130 pounds and almost half a liter in displacement, not that we want to see a weight gain of course.
Edit: Comparison with a 2001 911 and 2009 911 S (both have 6 speed manuals) ...Just for demonstrative purposes.
Year:............................2001 /// 2009
Displacement:.................3.4 /// 3.8
Power:..........................300 /// 385
Torque:.........................258 /// 310
Mileage:..15 city, 23 highway /// 18 city, 25 highway
All this while gaining 130 pounds and almost half a liter in displacement, not that we want to see a weight gain of course.
Last edited by PaintballaXX; 08-25-2009 at 11:42 AM.
09-04-2009, 02:23 PM
#46
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With GM already getting a large knowledge base of supercharging, I would guess a supercharged DI V6 to be the next engine for the vette. It would be a smaller footprint engine allowing the overall length to be decreased.
09-07-2009, 08:39 AM
#48
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Acar
Looked at All Corvettes Are Red for the pumteenth time last night. During the C5 design process, a 5.2lt pushrod was threatened when the weight wasn't coming in properly. Dropped when the weight problems were solved. The Northstar was also a contender but dropped because of the very strong customer view that the Corvette was powered by a pushrod, two valve V8 engine that could hold its own on performance.
The Corvette is about power to weight ratio and low end torque.
The next Corvette will have a V8 whose power and displacement will be matched to whatever weight reduction improvements can be made to provide the necessary power to weight ratio - no take-aways on performance. The ultimate combination will be the most cost effective trade between weight and engine technology that GM can construct. Likely be smaller displacement, possibly DFI, maybe be variable valve timing, not likely variable displacement unless they can solve the vibration problems, although they could limit this to the auto. Look at the L99 in the Camero for clues. With DFI and variable valve timing added to weight reduction, there maybe no need to reduce displacement but that needs to play out; look at what Porsche did when they introduced DFI. See above paintballax
The new Corvette GT2 will have a 5.5lt engine next year "based on a production block". That displacement was chosen for racing rules purposes. May not mean anything for the road car or in a FI form could be the performance engine
The Corvette is about power to weight ratio and low end torque.
The next Corvette will have a V8 whose power and displacement will be matched to whatever weight reduction improvements can be made to provide the necessary power to weight ratio - no take-aways on performance. The ultimate combination will be the most cost effective trade between weight and engine technology that GM can construct. Likely be smaller displacement, possibly DFI, maybe be variable valve timing, not likely variable displacement unless they can solve the vibration problems, although they could limit this to the auto. Look at the L99 in the Camero for clues. With DFI and variable valve timing added to weight reduction, there maybe no need to reduce displacement but that needs to play out; look at what Porsche did when they introduced DFI. See above paintballax
The new Corvette GT2 will have a 5.5lt engine next year "based on a production block". That displacement was chosen for racing rules purposes. May not mean anything for the road car or in a FI form could be the performance engine
Last edited by I Bin Therbefor; 09-07-2009 at 08:46 AM. Reason: spelling
09-13-2009, 09:38 PM
#49
Le Mans Master
You know, smaller displacement only makes sense if you're going to shrink the external dimensions... or if the engine isn't sturdy enough at its current displacement, which we know ain't so...
Could the next-generation small block actually get smaller? Would you change the bore spacing, or just lower the deck and shorten the stroke?
Could the next-generation small block actually get smaller? Would you change the bore spacing, or just lower the deck and shorten the stroke?
09-19-2009, 11:32 AM
#50
Le Mans Master
That is what I'm predicting. Around 5 liters of displacement, direct injection, variable valve timing, pushrod, 16 valve V8. Maybe 24 valve??? If it makes 430-450hp in a lighter car and it revs to 7,000+rpm, I'm in. 
09-26-2009, 02:18 AM
#51
Le Mans Master
Putting a V6 in a Corvette would be like replacing the V-twin on a Harley with a single cylinder thumper, or a 911 with a flat 4. Those engines are the trademarks of their respective products. That's one formula you don't want to mess with.
They can put overhead cams, turbos, direct injection, variable intake runners, smaller displacement, and whatever else they need to, but at the end of the day, it better be a 90 degree V8 with a 90 degree crank, and it better sound like an American V8.
Michael
They can put overhead cams, turbos, direct injection, variable intake runners, smaller displacement, and whatever else they need to, but at the end of the day, it better be a 90 degree V8 with a 90 degree crank, and it better sound like an American V8.
Michael
09-28-2009, 10:30 PM
#52
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I don’t think I would like a twin turbo v6..... but I would jack the hell out of the boost just like I did on my cobalt ss tc.... It took a second off the 1/4 mile ET. Lol
09-29-2009, 03:11 PM
#54
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This TT speculation is a load of BS.. A TTV6 gets horrible fuel effeciency and spews pollution.. you will see these cars going the way of the dinosaur.. only slick factory tuning that dramatically decreases performance will get these cars to pass emissions.. hence the massive downgraded USDM GTR and 335I. Christ, the ZR1 gets better MPG then the GTR.. so what is that telling you.
They will not drop the V8, although I could see them downsizing it, as well as producing a lighter weight corvette.
They will not drop the V8, although I could see them downsizing it, as well as producing a lighter weight corvette.
09-30-2009, 07:50 PM
#55
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I'm a new member and working on getting my first Corvette still, but already do not like the V6 idea. Corvettes evolved from the V6 in the 1950's, the V8, as I'm sure many people would agree, is what made a Corvette, a Corvette.
A base model V6 would be alright, for someone who has a lower budget, and wants all the looks of a Corvette, but economy to go with it.
The whole idea just seems silly in my humble opinion though, no matter how much I try to justify it in my mind.
A base model V6 would be alright, for someone who has a lower budget, and wants all the looks of a Corvette, but economy to go with it.
The whole idea just seems silly in my humble opinion though, no matter how much I try to justify it in my mind.
10-01-2009, 02:17 AM
#58
Drifting
wow...
Ok I try to never rant on here but this thread has so many outrageous lies based on no facts that I gotta. I know I'm younger then most on here but my dad is 59, so I've gotten to see a good mix of the best and worst of older cars my dad knows, and newer cars now being produced. First, whoever said world of supras are dead, thats probably one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. Im a big american car supporter only because right now japan doesn't make much that interests me, not because i think american cars are always better, clearly there were times they weren't. Yet if me or my buddies see a supra its a cool sight, and odds are any given one we see probably makes close to 500hp and looks and is close to stock. And then there are the 3000 that make 800+hp. Sorry, my lt1 and early ls motors arn't going to hit that kinda of power without radical modifications on most days. Obviously supras are not dead. And saying the only reason porsche uses flat sixes and the GTR uses a v6 cause of heritage... well old skylines were inline sixes so so much for that idea.
To bdking57's statement turbo'd engines are not hard to deal with when it comes to emissions all the time so no, we didn't get a downgraded "USDM GTR" ours and theirs are nearly identical. If anything we get better stuff at times then japan(such as when japan had, and still kinda does, a cap on hp at 287, know about that?). The reason the ZR1 gets better gas milage is cause of gearing, both in transmission and differential. GTR's 5th is 1.1 and 6th is .796 with a 3.7 final drive ratio, zr1's 5th is .84 and 6th is .67 and a 3.42 rear. Christ now what does that tell you? Same thing as every other vette. They are light and therefore have enough power to be able to cruise at 1500 rpm's instead of 2400.
As for ls2kev, the vette was supposed to be, since its coming to, the car almost anyone could buy used after a year or two and why it was always deemed best value... for the money. Its supposed to be the working mans sports car. Oh and go price a new Mustang gt for us shmucks thats supposedly only $29,000 msrp. You wont find one because of stupid mark ups and thousands of options. I've checked. Same thing for Camero SS btw, most run around $40,000. After looking at and pricing a lot of cars recently one of the best value right now is the 370Z believe it or not. Car that with only slicks or a real good driver should break twelves for less then $35,000
Michael A, you bring up a good point... kinda. Harley air cooled v twins are supposedly where its at right? Well my dads got a 2001 screamin eagle road glide, loves it, yet me and him both agree the v rod is awesome and its engine is the future due to the EPA and due to design. Harley's big 110 motor? pretty much sucks because of the EPA. I've already heard of them overheating because they run so lean to meet EPA requirements. My dads reasonably modified unrestricted 96 makes way more power. Dont believe me I'll send you the dyno sheet. But the v-rod "doesn't sound like a harley" doesn't "look like a harley" and it truly doesn't sell too well because of that. Yet a tweeked out V-rod destroyer has set world records and always delivers in the prostock bikes. And thats exactly what will happen to vettes I believe. The new vette will be faster and perform better then anything yet most will say it broke the tradition which was a bad idea. Those same people that wanna honor the ZR1, the FIRST AND ONLY factory supercharged vette?!? We all gotta be willing to adapt these days.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a firm believer in the vette engine as a pushrod, if they can advance the technology past the extreme point they've already hit. If you look on wikipedia (and wikipedia is pretty darn accurate... most of the time) about ls series motors, it explains the ls7 was going to use a split fork lifter so it could have 2 intake valves and still retain pushrods which would have been cool. Also cool was apparently during testing the ls7 could survive at 8000 rpms, but because of heads and cam wasn't breathing and wasn't making any power. Put these on the next pushrod small block along with direct injection and you have a winner... one that still wont be what most want because of its breathing habits and high revving ability. It'll need to be in high rpms and probably loose its low torque curve, not what most of you are asking for. And don't get me started on price, almost every new car is outrageous and vette's are not much better. Granted you can beat almost any car now for 100,000 but its still not a lambo or ferrari to most people. Regardless, thats a lot of money for what used to be the "american blue collar" sports car. I for one am happy that corvettes starting to take the crown away from pretty much every car out there. So whatever they gotta do to keep it comin, I'm all for. For traditionalists, offer a 327 pushrod using original bore and stroke specs. that would be cool and very old school. But if they say the next level vette will be a 5.8 liter dohc twin turbo with direct injection then by all means, chevy work your magic. Look at mustang, the 5.0 died... and then 4v cobras came to be much to everyones anger... and then cobra owners couldn't have cared less once they saw how much better a car it was(and it was). It's come down to adapt or die people. I agree vette's have a lot of roots being one of the oldest cars in the world. So offer a base pushrod and then go crazy with the top end models. Look at every car out there truly in the upper leagues and find me another pushrod. The viper, thats it. Point blank are no other pushrods out there that can keep up. But GM isn't magic, and the limits of pushrods will run out and thats when the vette will have to change or be left behind. So you want a big block pushrod so you can say you have one, or you want a world class sports car? Me, I'll take the second thank you.
Ok I really appreciate anyone who actually read this... and if no one bans me.
To bdking57's statement turbo'd engines are not hard to deal with when it comes to emissions all the time so no, we didn't get a downgraded "USDM GTR" ours and theirs are nearly identical. If anything we get better stuff at times then japan(such as when japan had, and still kinda does, a cap on hp at 287, know about that?). The reason the ZR1 gets better gas milage is cause of gearing, both in transmission and differential. GTR's 5th is 1.1 and 6th is .796 with a 3.7 final drive ratio, zr1's 5th is .84 and 6th is .67 and a 3.42 rear. Christ now what does that tell you? Same thing as every other vette. They are light and therefore have enough power to be able to cruise at 1500 rpm's instead of 2400.
As for ls2kev, the vette was supposed to be, since its coming to, the car almost anyone could buy used after a year or two and why it was always deemed best value... for the money. Its supposed to be the working mans sports car. Oh and go price a new Mustang gt for us shmucks thats supposedly only $29,000 msrp. You wont find one because of stupid mark ups and thousands of options. I've checked. Same thing for Camero SS btw, most run around $40,000. After looking at and pricing a lot of cars recently one of the best value right now is the 370Z believe it or not. Car that with only slicks or a real good driver should break twelves for less then $35,000
Michael A, you bring up a good point... kinda. Harley air cooled v twins are supposedly where its at right? Well my dads got a 2001 screamin eagle road glide, loves it, yet me and him both agree the v rod is awesome and its engine is the future due to the EPA and due to design. Harley's big 110 motor? pretty much sucks because of the EPA. I've already heard of them overheating because they run so lean to meet EPA requirements. My dads reasonably modified unrestricted 96 makes way more power. Dont believe me I'll send you the dyno sheet. But the v-rod "doesn't sound like a harley" doesn't "look like a harley" and it truly doesn't sell too well because of that. Yet a tweeked out V-rod destroyer has set world records and always delivers in the prostock bikes. And thats exactly what will happen to vettes I believe. The new vette will be faster and perform better then anything yet most will say it broke the tradition which was a bad idea. Those same people that wanna honor the ZR1, the FIRST AND ONLY factory supercharged vette?!? We all gotta be willing to adapt these days.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a firm believer in the vette engine as a pushrod, if they can advance the technology past the extreme point they've already hit. If you look on wikipedia (and wikipedia is pretty darn accurate... most of the time) about ls series motors, it explains the ls7 was going to use a split fork lifter so it could have 2 intake valves and still retain pushrods which would have been cool. Also cool was apparently during testing the ls7 could survive at 8000 rpms, but because of heads and cam wasn't breathing and wasn't making any power. Put these on the next pushrod small block along with direct injection and you have a winner... one that still wont be what most want because of its breathing habits and high revving ability. It'll need to be in high rpms and probably loose its low torque curve, not what most of you are asking for. And don't get me started on price, almost every new car is outrageous and vette's are not much better. Granted you can beat almost any car now for 100,000 but its still not a lambo or ferrari to most people. Regardless, thats a lot of money for what used to be the "american blue collar" sports car. I for one am happy that corvettes starting to take the crown away from pretty much every car out there. So whatever they gotta do to keep it comin, I'm all for. For traditionalists, offer a 327 pushrod using original bore and stroke specs. that would be cool and very old school. But if they say the next level vette will be a 5.8 liter dohc twin turbo with direct injection then by all means, chevy work your magic. Look at mustang, the 5.0 died... and then 4v cobras came to be much to everyones anger... and then cobra owners couldn't have cared less once they saw how much better a car it was(and it was). It's come down to adapt or die people. I agree vette's have a lot of roots being one of the oldest cars in the world. So offer a base pushrod and then go crazy with the top end models. Look at every car out there truly in the upper leagues and find me another pushrod. The viper, thats it. Point blank are no other pushrods out there that can keep up. But GM isn't magic, and the limits of pushrods will run out and thats when the vette will have to change or be left behind. So you want a big block pushrod so you can say you have one, or you want a world class sports car? Me, I'll take the second thank you.
Ok I really appreciate anyone who actually read this... and if no one bans me.
10-01-2009, 03:14 AM
#59
Le Mans Master
Look at every car out there truly in the upper leagues and find me another ________.
You filled in pushrod. But I'll play your game, you rogue. Try it with:
flat six.
V6.
V10.
V12.
flat-plane V8.
See, all the players in the upper leagues have different approaches to configuration, induction, position in the chassis, transmission, you name it. The cam-in-block design is not inherently inferior or obsolete. What matters is power at the wheels through an optimally-geared transmission over the entire operating range, how much fuel must be burned to produce that power, and how much physical space and mass the engine and transmission burden the vehicle with. Judged on what matters, the Chevy smallblock is world-class.
The limits of pushrods? Bah. Direct injection is still on the shelf, along with numerous other technologies. GM Powertrain has been holding back. The Chevy smallblock is hardly at the end of the road -- in fact there's little to suggest it will be giving up anything to the competition for a long time, further than any reasonable man dare speculate.
Oh, and BTW, if you want to talk Cobra owners coming to love their 4V engines... google LS1 Mustang. Seems the relatively small, lightweight, easy-to-modify LS1 is a popular transplant for Mustangs (and damn near everything else). Now why would Ford guys put a Chevy smallblock under the hood if the Ford modular motors were so much better?
So, you're right -- Corvette owners want a world class sports car. Thing is, they won't have to give up their pushrod V8 to get it.
Maybe you're just itching to live in a world where every manufacturer adopts the same "technologically superior" approach, but I think it's far more interesting and grand to see lots of different solutions to a problem.
And about Harleys -- ain't nobody buyin' em because they're efficient or sophisticated. In fact, the Harley identity is quite the opposite. If you're really about the best, why are you touting the V-Rod as the future? Why not a Japanese-style inline-4? Or are you only a believer in One True Cam Location, not One True Cylinder Arrangement?
Outrageous lies based on no facts rant accepted. And here I thought this thread was dead.
So, anybody know what the bore spacing is on the new Corvette race engine?
You filled in pushrod. But I'll play your game, you rogue. Try it with:
flat six.
V6.
V10.
V12.
flat-plane V8.
See, all the players in the upper leagues have different approaches to configuration, induction, position in the chassis, transmission, you name it. The cam-in-block design is not inherently inferior or obsolete. What matters is power at the wheels through an optimally-geared transmission over the entire operating range, how much fuel must be burned to produce that power, and how much physical space and mass the engine and transmission burden the vehicle with. Judged on what matters, the Chevy smallblock is world-class.
The limits of pushrods? Bah. Direct injection is still on the shelf, along with numerous other technologies. GM Powertrain has been holding back. The Chevy smallblock is hardly at the end of the road -- in fact there's little to suggest it will be giving up anything to the competition for a long time, further than any reasonable man dare speculate.
Oh, and BTW, if you want to talk Cobra owners coming to love their 4V engines... google LS1 Mustang. Seems the relatively small, lightweight, easy-to-modify LS1 is a popular transplant for Mustangs (and damn near everything else). Now why would Ford guys put a Chevy smallblock under the hood if the Ford modular motors were so much better?
So, you're right -- Corvette owners want a world class sports car. Thing is, they won't have to give up their pushrod V8 to get it.
Maybe you're just itching to live in a world where every manufacturer adopts the same "technologically superior" approach, but I think it's far more interesting and grand to see lots of different solutions to a problem.
And about Harleys -- ain't nobody buyin' em because they're efficient or sophisticated. In fact, the Harley identity is quite the opposite. If you're really about the best, why are you touting the V-Rod as the future? Why not a Japanese-style inline-4? Or are you only a believer in One True Cam Location, not One True Cylinder Arrangement?
Outrageous lies based on no facts rant accepted. And here I thought this thread was dead.
So, anybody know what the bore spacing is on the new Corvette race engine?
10-01-2009, 03:33 AM
#60
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Wow, you guys really know your stuff.
As for motorcycles, the GSXR's and ZX's have completely owned almost any type of racing, including drag racing, up until the V-rods were around.
Harleys are nice, I love them, but I'd take a *** bike ANY day. Before the Suzuki Hayabusa was limited back in 2001, it was a 200+ mph superbike. Still darn near that, with a limited top speed of 186, right off of the showroom floor.
As for the ideas of Chevy adapting to this new technology, or new engines in general, I wouldn't mind at all, as long as a Vette is still a Vette. BUT pushrod engines have shown to have almost no limit. Top fuel cars for example, 8,000+ horsepower, from a 500 cubic inch engine.
But anyway guys, no need to get personal about this, a debate is nice, but I sense this thread getting out of hand. Chevy has made the Corvette one of the absolute best track cars as of now, so I'm willing to accept changes in technology. I love Corvettes for what they are, fast, American sports cars. I think anyone would agree.
As for motorcycles, the GSXR's and ZX's have completely owned almost any type of racing, including drag racing, up until the V-rods were around.
Harleys are nice, I love them, but I'd take a *** bike ANY day. Before the Suzuki Hayabusa was limited back in 2001, it was a 200+ mph superbike. Still darn near that, with a limited top speed of 186, right off of the showroom floor.
As for the ideas of Chevy adapting to this new technology, or new engines in general, I wouldn't mind at all, as long as a Vette is still a Vette. BUT pushrod engines have shown to have almost no limit. Top fuel cars for example, 8,000+ horsepower, from a 500 cubic inch engine.
But anyway guys, no need to get personal about this, a debate is nice, but I sense this thread getting out of hand. Chevy has made the Corvette one of the absolute best track cars as of now, so I'm willing to accept changes in technology. I love Corvettes for what they are, fast, American sports cars. I think anyone would agree.