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our famous TI automotive fuel pumps that come with the fore innovations stuff actually make a brushless pump. L5M
with that or a different cheaper controller it can even be put on the CAN network on other cars. Can't see why not on ours.
Even if the reflex controller for the port injection can send out a PWM you may be able to run the pump slower and faster as needed to keep the flow up - maybe even enough to not have to do a return system.
DSX Tuning is developing a brushless, in-tank pump for a returnless setup. I’ve been waiting on this and their port controller to be released so start my port setup.
DSX Tuning is developing a brushless, in-tank pump for a returnless setup. I’ve been waiting on this and their port controller to be released so start my port setup.
I heard a whiff of this. Been a while. I will try and call him then because the hat from FORE is very nice - could just use that maybe to hold the brushless.
Idea of course is that with Brushless and proper control one would not need a return system.
I heard a whiff of this. Been a while. I will try and call him then because the hat from FORE is very nice - could just use that maybe to hold the brushless.
Idea of course is that with Brushless and proper control one would not need a return system.
I also spent a considerable amount of time discussing this with Deatschwerks. They have a 650il external brushless pump with integrated PWM controller. Dave at DSX quickly let me know that DW is sketchy which steered me away. I have nothing to compare so I’ve been taking him for his word on that one.
I also spent a considerable amount of time discussing this with Deatschwerks. They have a 650il external pump with controller. Dave at DSX quickly let me know that DW is sketchy which steered me away. I have nothing to compare so I’ve been taking him for his word on that one.
That may be true, however the components are not the real problem from what I can tell. Brushless pump (or two) and a brushless pump controller.
Since we are adding a piggy back we can take CAN or other and control that.
That may be true, however the components are not the real problem from what I can tell. Brushless pump (or two) and a brushless pump controller.
Since we are adding a piggy back we can take CAN or other and control that.
Yep. The 650il is a brushless pump with integrated PWM controller. My original plan was to utilize the Reflex+ to control this DW external pump via PWM output (as you had eluded to in your original post.) After I heard that DSX was coming out with a “more integrated” ECU control for port injection, I decided to just wait. Dave also mentioned his plan for a drop in brushless pump for Z06 which was icing on the cake.
Also found this - seems Injector Dynamics also has a Ti auto Brushless pump controller: https://injectordynamics.com/id-bpc1...rating%20range.
Seems a bit pricey for a controller. Idea of the controller on Brushless seems to be to gain PWM input but have some pretty big power sources on the box to send to the pump as needed for the appropriate flow.
Does the C7 have CAN control of the pump at all times? The OEM controller has multiple wires and I think I remember that it is indeed on the CAN BUS, but the controller may be just PWM.
I have emailed FORE as he had some really good descriptive explanations for using single or dual FPR systems with DI + Port. Wanted to get an opinion on what he thought about the single Brushless on his hanger that can flow 1100LPH up to 150psi.
Since the car will need a port injection controller anyway, the conversation may be just about DSX, but more about which controller works or is most reliable. Port injection controller is the Reflex or a Holley depending on who I can find that will tune the car with the attention to detail I use for the rest of the build. I will have to better understand how the Reflex acts on the CAN BUS and what signals the OEM controller takes in and puts out.
Of course, that now means I would have OEM ECU, Port injection controller, Pump Controller (should be transparent though). Pump controller is more of a slave of of either the E92 and/or the port injection controller.
Emailed back and forth with FORE and while they are aware of the design needs for a brushless pump hanger module they do not have any timing info for when they may do that.
I think I am going to take the saddle tank out and pump assembly out and stare at this a bit. Other than tuning, this and the fuel line routing is the big wall between me and getting the car back on the road.
The question is what is the benefit from adding about 2500 to the fuel system completed costs, all else being the same in the areas of plumbing a two regulator system.
One can buy the cookie-cutter dual pump (Brushed) from Fore, trigger the second pump at X parameter, and just have some pretty hot fuel all the time. A single (or dual?) E5LM would run up to 1100 LPH which is plenty for most needs, and would idle down to 300lph or below as needed. You would still be running the pump faster before you actually needed it because you don't want flow to lag behind the pedal obviously.
The question is what is the benefit from adding about 2500 to the fuel system completed costs, all else being the same in the areas of plumbing a two regulator system.
One can buy the cookie-cutter dual pump (Brushed) from Fore, trigger the second pump at X parameter, and just have some pretty hot fuel all the time. A single (or dual?) E5LM would run up to 1100 LPH which is plenty for most needs, and would idle down to 300lph or below as needed. You would still be running the pump faster before you actually needed it because you don't want flow to lag behind the pedal obviously.
I wish I was an expert on this. I bet two of these TI E5LM brushless pumps could be implemented/staged as you have you described if one was savvy enough to try. Looking at the EL5M data sheets, that pump flows 500 lph at 70psi (13.5v) which I believe is the factory ECM commanded rate under “high flow.” That’s still a potential of 1,000 lph which I believe is plenty based on my previous conversations with Chris Crawford. He’s definitely someone I consider an expert with this platform and fueling strategy but he also sells his own port system.That is all structured on Holley products/harnesses, including the terminator/dominator ECUs which gets very pricey. I’m all for a cheaper method but not savvy enough to venture out on my own. I like the idea of a DSX dual in tank pump that hopefully is just plug/play. I myself would be willing spend some extra money just for that aspect and the R&D they put into vetting a system that works before marketing for sale.
I finally finished designing the C7 bucket system and 3D printed the whole thing to validate my fitment and get a sense of scale before trying to machine any of it. The reality is it's a little more complex than the Camaro/CTS-V one that I did since the factory electronics won't natively control a brushless pump. I have to mount the TI controllers and then develop a CAN converter to deal with running the three phase controllers, not to mention you need a pressure relief to compensate for the fact that these have a minimum flow rate (which I built into my bucket). There's quick and dirty ways to do it, and sure, you could use some external crap to "make it work" and be done, but that's not my style. My bucket (keep in mind I keep saying bucket because I'm not just going to hang a pump out in a tank so it can starve on a hard launch or hard turn) will be a drop in replacement. Plug everything in, don't cut any wires, run the HPT template I provide for the tune, and move on with your life. No external regulators, no monster fuel lines to run... just simplicity. Brushless pumps add another level of difficulty to integration, but I've already got it handled. I only have so many hours in a day, though, and everyone is already up my butt about the Camaro/V3 bucket that's headed into production as well as the port controller that's almost done.
An option exists to use a single pump and the Injector Dynamics controller, but it's going to be significantly cheaper to use two pumps and the TI Auto 3-phase controllers. FWIW, the factory fuel pump (well, using the 2019 as an example) peaks out around 290LPH which is a far cry from 500LPH. It is also worth noting pumps are rated with NO restrictions or losses in place (ie: no consideration of frictional fluid loss from fuel lines, no consideration for flow loss from jet siphons, etc).
I'll take a minute to toot my own horn and make the statement that I don't believe anyone will be able to integrate to factory electronics on near the level of completion that I will. The options that have been put out to date are lackluster IMO and are the result of just making what's available work instead of working from the ground up. My port controller is a prime example of how things can be so much better when you take off the handcuffs of working inside somebody else's constraint system and architecture.
Thanks for the updates. I'm the one who called yesterday specifically about these ruminations.
The intriguing thing is that with the much wider (obviously) range of the brushless pumps like the E5LM is that then you are not heating the fuel when you don't need to.
The issues I don't clearly understand yet is when you have the two physical outputs that need different pressures - (port and DI) when you are ramping up demand - without at least one FPR how how would that be done? A simplistic thought possibly but Port pressure will need to ramp up not only for the additional fuel demand but also for the increased pressure (boost) against the injector. DI needs a constant number I know, but obviously more needs to be pumped to keep that number consistent.
The great thing that was demonstrated by the different controllers was when they are able to take more amps and drive the pump much harder when needed at the same or similar voltage - demonstrated by the straight line LPH/pressure graph Above.
I finally finished designing the C7 bucket system and 3D printed the whole thing to validate my fitment and get a sense of scale before trying to machine any of it. The reality is it's a little more complex than the Camaro/CTS-V one that I did since the factory electronics won't natively control a brushless pump. I have to mount the TI controllers and then develop a CAN converter to deal with running the three phase controllers, not to mention you need a pressure relief to compensate for the fact that these have a minimum flow rate (which I built into my bucket). There's quick and dirty ways to do it, and sure, you could use some external crap to "make it work" and be done, but that's not my style. My bucket (keep in mind I keep saying bucket because I'm not just going to hang a pump out in a tank so it can starve on a hard launch or hard turn) will be a drop in replacement. Plug everything in, don't cut any wires, run the HPT template I provide for the tune, and move on with your life. No external regulators, no monster fuel lines to run... just simplicity. Brushless pumps add another level of difficulty to integration, but I've already got it handled. I only have so many hours in a day, though, and everyone is already up my butt about the Camaro/V3 bucket that's headed into production as well as the port controller that's almost done.
An option exists to use a single pump and the Injector Dynamics controller, but it's going to be significantly cheaper to use two pumps and the TI Auto 3-phase controllers. FWIW, the factory fuel pump (well, using the 2019 as an example) peaks out around 290LPH which is a far cry from 500LPH. It is also worth noting pumps are rated with NO restrictions or losses in place (ie: no consideration of frictional fluid loss from fuel lines, no consideration for flow loss from jet siphons, etc).
I'll take a minute to toot my own horn and make the statement that I don't believe anyone will be able to integrate to factory electronics on near the level of completion that I will. The options that have been put out to date are lackluster IMO and are the result of just making what's available work instead of working from the ground up. My port controller is a prime example of how things can be so much better when you take off the handcuffs of working inside somebody else's constraint system and architecture.
Factory integration is certainly what I was after. Also saw the FB post on E92 controller progress. I’ve been holding off on implementing port injection as a whole while DSX implements their own solutions, so I personally am super excited. Thanks for the feedback Dave.
Thanks for the updates. I'm the one who called yesterday specifically about these ruminations.
The intriguing thing is that with the much wider (obviously) range of the brushless pumps like the E5LM is that then you are not heating the fuel when you don't need to.
The issues I don't clearly understand yet is when you have the two physical outputs that need different pressures - (port and DI) when you are ramping up demand - without at least one FPR how how would that be done? A simplistic thought possibly but Port pressure will need to ramp up not only for the additional fuel demand but also for the increased pressure (boost) against the injector. DI needs a constant number I know, but obviously more needs to be pumped to keep that number consistent.
The great thing that was demonstrated by the different controllers was when they are able to take more amps and drive the pump much harder when needed at the same or similar voltage - demonstrated by the straight line LPH/pressure graph Above.
Since when did you need different pressures? That's not true at all. You also don't need port pressure to ramp up or anything unless you have a really archaic low-tech port controller incapable of using pressure correction.
Driving the E5LM harder is nothing new. Torqbyte boosts voltage to 24V and ID boosts voltage to 36V. ID's biggest advantage is they use true speed control, so incoming voltage to the controller and pressure don't phase it; it's going to deliver the same pump rpm being asked for.
Not heating fuel is a huge advantage of returnless systems. With technology today, there is almost no reason to ever run a regulator. My Camaro/V3 setup delivers exactly what you ask of it without any extra which is great, but those are turbine style pumps which function a little differently. I say almost because the E5LM in standard form has a minimum flow rate of 150lph, so you need to bleed that off when you're not actually consuming it. In my C7 bucket, this is done with a relief in the bucket itself, so while fuel is recirculated, it doesn't go through the engine bay.
01-17-2024, 10:22 PM
Brushless fuel pumps and controlling them
