[Z06] Z06 to have alloy frame, weight reduced by 230 lbs.
07-12-2004, 06:11 PM
#1
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
Z06 to have alloy frame, weight reduced by 230 lbs.
While out at at Top Vette in upstate NY this weekend Iwas told the new Z will have an alloy frame replacing the standard steel one used in the new C6 coupe. Doing so will reduce the weight by 230 lbs. Also the engine will be a 7 liter (427 CI) with 500 ponies.
Sorry if this is a dupe!
Sorry if this is a dupe!
07-12-2004, 06:28 PM
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this sounds much more believable than just plain aluminum. Although i dont know what other than aluminum they would want to use.....titanium is FAR too expensive....
I believe it. It'd put the Z06 right at 3000 pounds.
I believe it. It'd put the Z06 right at 3000 pounds.
07-12-2004, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Miaugi
While out at at Top Vette in upstate NY this weekend I was told ...Doing so will reduce the weight by 230 lbs.
230 pounds is a pretty precise number....
Ranger
07-12-2004, 07:36 PM
#4
Burning Brakes
07-12-2004, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Miaugi
While out at at Top Vette in upstate NY this weekend Iwas told the new Z will have an alloy frame replacing the standard steel one used in the new C6 coupe. Doing so will reduce the weight by 230 lbs. Also the engine will be a 7 liter (427 CI) with 500 ponies.
Sorry if this is a dupe!
Sorry if this is a dupe!
And 230 lbs reduction from the current Z06 3,118 weight or from the C6 3,179 lbs weight?
07-12-2004, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Miaugi
While out at at Top Vette in upstate NY this weekend Iwas told the new Z will have an alloy frame replacing the standard steel one used in the new C6 coupe. Doing so will reduce the weight by 230 lbs. Also the engine will be a 7 liter (427 CI) with 500 ponies.
Some time ago we went through a calculation of the weight of the hydroformed side rails, and I recall we figured no more than about 75 pounds each. Add the bumper bars, central sheet metal backbone, and the aluminum alloy front and rear cross members and the entire weight of chassis structure is probably no more than 230 pounds, so it would be interesting to see how substituting aluminum for steel structural components will reduce structural weight by nearly 100 percent.
Yeah, I'd like to hear what the "source" is, too!
Duke
07-13-2004, 12:28 AM
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Yeah, the carbon fiber hood panel on the Z-16 saved a whopping ten pounds for about three thousand bucks.
Duke
Duke
07-13-2004, 03:14 AM
#9
Burning Brakes
Well, at the risk of getting embroiled in another CF pissing
contest, here's some thoughts on the 2006 Z06 weight.
The base C6 Coupe weighs 3179 pounds. How will the C6 Z06 drop weight?
ENGINE:
=> LS2 has a dressed weight of about 201kg = 443 pounds.
=> Z06 engine likely has titanium connecting rods
=> Z06 engine likely has titanium valves (TiAl exhaust valves), springs, and retainers
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/zerothread?id=764419
=> 3V heads look about an inch wider than 2V heads
=> At 6.3L and 500hp, one has 79hp/L. I don't think that GDI
is needed to get the level of specific output. The LS6 does
71.5 and the 3V should add 10%-15% to that. The SAE paper
said the 6.3L could make it to 8000rpm. I bet that makes DoD
less appealing. GDI would still be nice, at least to me. It would
make 535hp more likely.
I suspect that the weight loss due to the titanium and the lighter
crankshaft will be balanced by the heavier heads. I'd guess the
engine will weigh 195-205kg dressed. Who knows what the VVT will
add.
TRANSMISSION, DRIVESHAFT, DIFFERENTIAL, HALF-SHAFTS:
=> If the transmission is a T56 variant -> little weight change
http://www.ttcautomotive.com/English/products/T-56.asp (Maybe TUET-1806)
=> Titanium half-shafts might save 1/3 over steel (10 pounds ??)
http://www.sae.org/automag/material/03-2001/timet.htm
=> Driveshaft might need to be fortified.
BRAKES AND WHEELS:
=> Ceramic brake rotors could save a lot of weight. ( 30 pounds ??)
=> Larger tires and rims are likely heavier. Maybe magnesium rims.
P275/35ZR18 (Front), P325/30ZR19 (Rear)
FRAME & BODY:
=> Switching the 4 perimeter rails from mild steel to aluminum: ( 110 pounds )
=> A carbon fiber hood in 2004 saved about 11 pounds.
=> Some body panels and wheel wells might save another 25 pounds
OTHER:
=> A polycarbonate rear hatch has got to be worth 20 pounds.
=> Titanium exhaust: 20 pounds (18 pounds in C5)
=> Remove cushy stuff and remove sound deadening ( 20 pounds )
So,
3179 - 10 - 30 - 110 - 35 - 20 - 20 - 20 = 2934 (that's a 245 pound weight loss )
I don't realistically see this car going much under 2950 pounds. I'd be
happy with 2999!! Obviously, the final weight depends on which ones of
these speculations comes true (or others).
contest, here's some thoughts on the 2006 Z06 weight.
The base C6 Coupe weighs 3179 pounds. How will the C6 Z06 drop weight?
ENGINE:
=> LS2 has a dressed weight of about 201kg = 443 pounds.
=> Z06 engine likely has titanium connecting rods
=> Z06 engine likely has titanium valves (TiAl exhaust valves), springs, and retainers
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/zerothread?id=764419
=> 3V heads look about an inch wider than 2V heads
=> At 6.3L and 500hp, one has 79hp/L. I don't think that GDI
is needed to get the level of specific output. The LS6 does
71.5 and the 3V should add 10%-15% to that. The SAE paper
said the 6.3L could make it to 8000rpm. I bet that makes DoD
less appealing. GDI would still be nice, at least to me. It would
make 535hp more likely.
I suspect that the weight loss due to the titanium and the lighter
crankshaft will be balanced by the heavier heads. I'd guess the
engine will weigh 195-205kg dressed. Who knows what the VVT will
add.
TRANSMISSION, DRIVESHAFT, DIFFERENTIAL, HALF-SHAFTS:
=> If the transmission is a T56 variant -> little weight change
http://www.ttcautomotive.com/English/products/T-56.asp (Maybe TUET-1806)
=> Titanium half-shafts might save 1/3 over steel (10 pounds ??)
http://www.sae.org/automag/material/03-2001/timet.htm
=> Driveshaft might need to be fortified.
BRAKES AND WHEELS:
=> Ceramic brake rotors could save a lot of weight. ( 30 pounds ??)
=> Larger tires and rims are likely heavier. Maybe magnesium rims.
P275/35ZR18 (Front), P325/30ZR19 (Rear)
FRAME & BODY:
=> Switching the 4 perimeter rails from mild steel to aluminum: ( 110 pounds )
=> A carbon fiber hood in 2004 saved about 11 pounds.
=> Some body panels and wheel wells might save another 25 pounds
OTHER:
=> A polycarbonate rear hatch has got to be worth 20 pounds.
=> Titanium exhaust: 20 pounds (18 pounds in C5)
=> Remove cushy stuff and remove sound deadening ( 20 pounds )
So,
3179 - 10 - 30 - 110 - 35 - 20 - 20 - 20 = 2934 (that's a 245 pound weight loss )
I don't realistically see this car going much under 2950 pounds. I'd be
happy with 2999!! Obviously, the final weight depends on which ones of
these speculations comes true (or others).
07-13-2004, 07:12 AM
#10
Race Director
Originally Posted by Runge_Kutta
Well, at the risk of getting embroiled in another CF pissing
contest, here's some thoughts on the 2006 Z06 weight.
The base C6 Coupe weighs 3179 pounds. How will the C6 Z06 drop weight?
ENGINE:
=> LS2 has a dressed weight of about 201kg = 443 pounds.
=> Z06 engine likely has titanium connecting rods
=> Z06 engine likely has titanium valves (TiAl exhaust valves), springs, and retainers
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/zerothread?id=764419
=> 3V heads look about an inch wider than 2V heads
=> At 6.3L and 500hp, one has 79hp/L. I don't think that GDI
is needed to get the level of specific output. The LS6 does
71.5 and the 3V should add 10%-15% to that. The SAE paper
said the 6.3L could make it to 8000rpm. I bet that makes DoD
less appealing. GDI would still be nice, at least to me. It would
make 535hp more likely.
I suspect that the weight loss due to the titanium and the lighter
crankshaft will be balanced by the heavier heads. I'd guess the
engine will weigh 195-205kg dressed. Who knows what the VVT will
add.
TRANSMISSION, DRIVESHAFT, DIFFERENTIAL, HALF-SHAFTS:
=> If the transmission is a T56 variant -> little weight change
http://www.ttcautomotive.com/English/products/T-56.asp (Maybe TUET-1806)
=> Titanium half-shafts might save 1/3 over steel (10 pounds ??)
http://www.sae.org/automag/material/03-2001/timet.htm
=> Driveshaft might need to be fortified.
BRAKES AND WHEELS:
=> Ceramic brake rotors could save a lot of weight. ( 30 pounds ??)
=> Larger tires and rims are likely heavier. Maybe magnesium rims.
P275/35ZR18 (Front), P325/30ZR19 (Rear)
FRAME & BODY:
=> Switching the 4 perimeter rails from mild steel to aluminum: ( 110 pounds )
=> A carbon fiber hood in 2004 saved about 11 pounds.
=> Some body panels and wheel wells might save another 25 pounds
OTHER:
=> A polycarbonate rear hatch has got to be worth 20 pounds.
=> Titanium exhaust: 20 pounds (18 pounds in C5)
=> Remove cushy stuff and remove sound deadening ( 20 pounds )
So,
3179 - 10 - 30 - 110 - 35 - 20 - 20 - 20 = 2934 (that's a 245 pound weight loss )
I don't realistically see this car going much under 2950 pounds. I'd be
happy with 2999!! Obviously, the final weight depends on which ones of
these speculations comes true (or others).
contest, here's some thoughts on the 2006 Z06 weight.
The base C6 Coupe weighs 3179 pounds. How will the C6 Z06 drop weight?
ENGINE:
=> LS2 has a dressed weight of about 201kg = 443 pounds.
=> Z06 engine likely has titanium connecting rods
=> Z06 engine likely has titanium valves (TiAl exhaust valves), springs, and retainers
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/zerothread?id=764419
=> 3V heads look about an inch wider than 2V heads
=> At 6.3L and 500hp, one has 79hp/L. I don't think that GDI
is needed to get the level of specific output. The LS6 does
71.5 and the 3V should add 10%-15% to that. The SAE paper
said the 6.3L could make it to 8000rpm. I bet that makes DoD
less appealing. GDI would still be nice, at least to me. It would
make 535hp more likely.
I suspect that the weight loss due to the titanium and the lighter
crankshaft will be balanced by the heavier heads. I'd guess the
engine will weigh 195-205kg dressed. Who knows what the VVT will
add.
TRANSMISSION, DRIVESHAFT, DIFFERENTIAL, HALF-SHAFTS:
=> If the transmission is a T56 variant -> little weight change
http://www.ttcautomotive.com/English/products/T-56.asp (Maybe TUET-1806)
=> Titanium half-shafts might save 1/3 over steel (10 pounds ??)
http://www.sae.org/automag/material/03-2001/timet.htm
=> Driveshaft might need to be fortified.
BRAKES AND WHEELS:
=> Ceramic brake rotors could save a lot of weight. ( 30 pounds ??)
=> Larger tires and rims are likely heavier. Maybe magnesium rims.
P275/35ZR18 (Front), P325/30ZR19 (Rear)
FRAME & BODY:
=> Switching the 4 perimeter rails from mild steel to aluminum: ( 110 pounds )
=> A carbon fiber hood in 2004 saved about 11 pounds.
=> Some body panels and wheel wells might save another 25 pounds
OTHER:
=> A polycarbonate rear hatch has got to be worth 20 pounds.
=> Titanium exhaust: 20 pounds (18 pounds in C5)
=> Remove cushy stuff and remove sound deadening ( 20 pounds )
So,
3179 - 10 - 30 - 110 - 35 - 20 - 20 - 20 = 2934 (that's a 245 pound weight loss )
I don't realistically see this car going much under 2950 pounds. I'd be
happy with 2999!! Obviously, the final weight depends on which ones of
these speculations comes true (or others).
Thanks
07-13-2004, 07:37 AM
#11
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Ranger
Anything you can say about the source of this information?
230 pounds is a pretty precise number....Ranger
230 pounds is a pretty precise number....Ranger
As for the question by "ivan111" - ...reduction from the current Z06 3,118 weight or from the C6 3,179 lbs weight?
Good question and although I didn't ask that question I was told the final weight would be in the 2,890 range, so it would have been compared to the current Z06.
Sorry I don't have more details guys.
07-13-2004, 01:30 PM
#12
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Originally Posted by Runge_Kutta
Well, at the risk of getting embroiled in another CF pissing
contest, here's some thoughts on the 2006 Z06 weight.
The base C6 Coupe weighs 3179 pounds. How will the C6 Z06 drop weight?
ENGINE:
=> LS2 has a dressed weight of about 201kg = 443 pounds.
=> Z06 engine likely has titanium connecting rods
=> Z06 engine likely has titanium valves (TiAl exhaust valves), springs, and retainers
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/zerothread?id=764419
=> 3V heads look about an inch wider than 2V heads
=> At 6.3L and 500hp, one has 79hp/L. I don't think that GDI
is needed to get the level of specific output. The LS6 does
71.5 and the 3V should add 10%-15% to that. The SAE paper
said the 6.3L could make it to 8000rpm. I bet that makes DoD
less appealing. GDI would still be nice, at least to me. It would
make 535hp more likely.
I suspect that the weight loss due to the titanium and the lighter
crankshaft will be balanced by the heavier heads. I'd guess the
engine will weigh 195-205kg dressed. Who knows what the VVT will
add.
TRANSMISSION, DRIVESHAFT, DIFFERENTIAL, HALF-SHAFTS:
=> If the transmission is a T56 variant -> little weight change
http://www.ttcautomotive.com/English/products/T-56.asp (Maybe TUET-1806)
=> Titanium half-shafts might save 1/3 over steel (10 pounds ??)
http://www.sae.org/automag/material/03-2001/timet.htm
=> Driveshaft might need to be fortified.
BRAKES AND WHEELS:
=> Ceramic brake rotors could save a lot of weight. ( 30 pounds ??)
=> Larger tires and rims are likely heavier. Maybe magnesium rims.
P275/35ZR18 (Front), P325/30ZR19 (Rear)
FRAME & BODY:
=> Switching the 4 perimeter rails from mild steel to aluminum: ( 110 pounds )
=> A carbon fiber hood in 2004 saved about 11 pounds.
=> Some body panels and wheel wells might save another 25 pounds
OTHER:
=> A polycarbonate rear hatch has got to be worth 20 pounds.
=> Titanium exhaust: 20 pounds (18 pounds in C5)
=> Remove cushy stuff and remove sound deadening ( 20 pounds )
So,
3179 - 10 - 30 - 110 - 35 - 20 - 20 - 20 = 2934 (that's a 245 pound weight loss )
I don't realistically see this car going much under 2950 pounds. I'd be
happy with 2999!! Obviously, the final weight depends on which ones of
these speculations comes true (or others).
contest, here's some thoughts on the 2006 Z06 weight.
The base C6 Coupe weighs 3179 pounds. How will the C6 Z06 drop weight?
ENGINE:
=> LS2 has a dressed weight of about 201kg = 443 pounds.
=> Z06 engine likely has titanium connecting rods
=> Z06 engine likely has titanium valves (TiAl exhaust valves), springs, and retainers
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/zerothread?id=764419
=> 3V heads look about an inch wider than 2V heads
=> At 6.3L and 500hp, one has 79hp/L. I don't think that GDI
is needed to get the level of specific output. The LS6 does
71.5 and the 3V should add 10%-15% to that. The SAE paper
said the 6.3L could make it to 8000rpm. I bet that makes DoD
less appealing. GDI would still be nice, at least to me. It would
make 535hp more likely.
I suspect that the weight loss due to the titanium and the lighter
crankshaft will be balanced by the heavier heads. I'd guess the
engine will weigh 195-205kg dressed. Who knows what the VVT will
add.
TRANSMISSION, DRIVESHAFT, DIFFERENTIAL, HALF-SHAFTS:
=> If the transmission is a T56 variant -> little weight change
http://www.ttcautomotive.com/English/products/T-56.asp (Maybe TUET-1806)
=> Titanium half-shafts might save 1/3 over steel (10 pounds ??)
http://www.sae.org/automag/material/03-2001/timet.htm
=> Driveshaft might need to be fortified.
BRAKES AND WHEELS:
=> Ceramic brake rotors could save a lot of weight. ( 30 pounds ??)
=> Larger tires and rims are likely heavier. Maybe magnesium rims.
P275/35ZR18 (Front), P325/30ZR19 (Rear)
FRAME & BODY:
=> Switching the 4 perimeter rails from mild steel to aluminum: ( 110 pounds )
=> A carbon fiber hood in 2004 saved about 11 pounds.
=> Some body panels and wheel wells might save another 25 pounds
OTHER:
=> A polycarbonate rear hatch has got to be worth 20 pounds.
=> Titanium exhaust: 20 pounds (18 pounds in C5)
=> Remove cushy stuff and remove sound deadening ( 20 pounds )
So,
3179 - 10 - 30 - 110 - 35 - 20 - 20 - 20 = 2934 (that's a 245 pound weight loss )
I don't realistically see this car going much under 2950 pounds. I'd be
happy with 2999!! Obviously, the final weight depends on which ones of
these speculations comes true (or others).
When you mentioned the side rails that includes the backbone center tunnel?
07-13-2004, 01:41 PM
#13
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I would be very suprised if the Zo6 had titanium connecting rods. Aluminum maybe. Aluminum rods are in some cases just as good as steel rods. Eitherway I think that will result in unnecessary machining of internal parts.
The titanium valvetrain is exceedingly more likely.
The titanium valvetrain is exceedingly more likely.
07-13-2004, 01:54 PM
#14
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Originally Posted by Guru_4_hire
I would be very suprised if the Zo6 had titanium connecting rods. Aluminum maybe. Aluminum rods are in some cases just as good as steel rods. Eitherway I think that will result in unnecessary machining of internal parts.
The titanium valvetrain is exceedingly more likely.
The titanium valvetrain is exceedingly more likely.
Ti is the ideal material for Rods........I won't be surprised at all if they use them, if they really want to reduce reciprocating mass and increase the RPM's that is the way to go......
Will see what happens......
07-13-2004, 02:22 PM
#15
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Aluminum has poor fatigue resistance and aluminum connecting rods are totally unsuitable for a OE engine.
Assuming GM wants to keep the Z06 base price under $60K there is only very limited budget for light weight material technology.
The $3K for a ten pound savings in the Z16 hood is certainly nothing to write home about.
Titanium rods in the engine and exhaust system isn't a bad bet, but more aluminum in the stucture and ceramic rotors are - dare I say it - a pipe dream.
Duke
Assuming GM wants to keep the Z06 base price under $60K there is only very limited budget for light weight material technology.
The $3K for a ten pound savings in the Z16 hood is certainly nothing to write home about.
Titanium rods in the engine and exhaust system isn't a bad bet, but more aluminum in the stucture and ceramic rotors are - dare I say it - a pipe dream.
Duke
07-13-2004, 03:12 PM
#16
☠☣☢ Semper Ebrius ☢☣☠
Originally Posted by SWCDuke
Titanium rods in the engine and exhaust system isn't a bad bet, but more aluminum in the stucture and ceramic rotors are - dare I say it - a pipe dream.
Careful, you're going to get attacked again by certain self-declared omniscient types.
07-13-2004, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by SWCDuke
Aluminum has poor fatigue resistance and aluminum connecting rods are totally unsuitable for a OE engine.
Assuming GM wants to keep the Z06 base price under $60K there is only very limited budget for light weight material technology.
The $3K for a ten pound savings in the Z16 hood is certainly nothing to write home about.
Titanium rods in the engine and exhaust system isn't a bad bet, but more aluminum in the stucture and ceramic rotors are - dare I say it - a pipe dream.
Duke
Assuming GM wants to keep the Z06 base price under $60K there is only very limited budget for light weight material technology.
The $3K for a ten pound savings in the Z16 hood is certainly nothing to write home about.
Titanium rods in the engine and exhaust system isn't a bad bet, but more aluminum in the stucture and ceramic rotors are - dare I say it - a pipe dream.
Duke
steel rods and forged aluminum pistoms if balanced well will make a nice revvy motor.
We shall see wont we.
I think titanium is cost prohibitive
07-13-2004, 03:52 PM
#18
☠☣☢ Semper Ebrius ☢☣☠
Originally Posted by Guru_4_hire
I think titanium is cost prohibitive
If they use titanium, it would probably be as an alloy of steel.
07-13-2004, 05:43 PM
#19
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Originally Posted by Guru_4_hire
I will defer to your superior knowledge, but I think that titanium rods is as much a pipe dream as a lighter alloy frame is.
steel rods and forged aluminum pistoms if balanced well will make a nice revvy motor.
We shall see wont we.
I think titanium is cost prohibitive
steel rods and forged aluminum pistoms if balanced well will make a nice revvy motor.
We shall see wont we.
I think titanium is cost prohibitive
The list of current Ti rod engines includes the F355 and F360, NSX, and I think the Honda S2000 also has Ti rods.
Given the long stroke to achieve 6.4L, Ti rods would go a long way toward reducing dynamic loading, and I don't think they are beyond the call of a limited production premium high output engine.
Duke
07-13-2004, 06:23 PM
#20
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Originally Posted by SWCDuke
Probably over a year ago there was what appeared to be a credible report on this forum of something on the order of 100 sets of Ti rods being shipped to GM. The price of Ti has dropped drastically ever since the fall of the Soviet Union. They have the biggest stockpile and the most proven ore reserves. I think I posed a question once of how many rod sets could be built from an idle ex-Soviet titantium hulled submarine!
The list of current Ti rod engines includes the F355 and F360, NSX, and I think the Honda S2000 also has Ti rods.
Given the long stroke to achieve 6.4L, Ti rods would go a long way toward reducing dynamic loading, and I don't think they are beyond the call of a limited production premium high output engine.
Duke
The list of current Ti rod engines includes the F355 and F360, NSX, and I think the Honda S2000 also has Ti rods.
Given the long stroke to achieve 6.4L, Ti rods would go a long way toward reducing dynamic loading, and I don't think they are beyond the call of a limited production premium high output engine.
Duke
To add to your list of cars with Ti rods:
Lamborghini Murcielago
Gallardo (maybe i don't know)
Porsche GT3
Carrera GT
And basically all Ferraris use them (360, 575M, Enzo etc).
So the list is pretty short!!!!!!
Last edited by ivan111; 07-13-2004 at 06:33 PM.