[Z06] What should it Cost?
07-25-2014, 01:08 PM
#42
Supporting Vendor
Member Since: Sep 2013
Location: Harbor City California
Posts: 2,815
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I'm not arguing with you AT ALL!!!! But can you explain or show me something that says the PM guides you use are really that much better than bronze? I'm seriously just trying to make an educated decision on this. I'm in the midst of getting ready to have a set of heads re-worked and I find what you said about the PM guides very interesting. Meaning, it makes sense that PM guides would last longer but, I always like to know why when I can. Thanks!! You're welcome to PM me if you prefer to take this "offline", sir.
07-25-2014, 01:11 PM
#43
Le Mans Master
Sad how a guy (DH) who is regularly testing, racing, and really running his Z how it should be (with many videos for proof) is getting cut up.
07-25-2014, 01:58 PM
#44
Melting Slicks
07-25-2014, 02:01 PM
#45
Le Mans Master
Lazer took care of my glasses many years ago....thanks for caring
07-25-2014, 02:09 PM
#46
Melting Slicks
07-25-2014, 02:12 PM
#47
Le Mans Master
Nice....time to un-subscribe. have fun
07-25-2014, 03:23 PM
#49
Team Owner
I think that we will, as more of all types, all options of non stock setups start to go in for maintenance or other work.
The first mention of one of the recent alternative setups that we see discussed on this forum as of late, and that I have been able to find, dates back about 8 months
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-z...d-special.html
So in terms of long term, I'd like to see more examples of alternative setups, including this one, as well.
However since Hib Halverson wrote the following posts, it indicated to me right away that "valvetrain weight" just might not the be all and end all, and using a valve with what Hib claims is the "worst" in terms of heat transfer capabilities of all available aftermarket choices, doesn't seem to me to be any "better" of an idea, and the way I look at it, might be an even worse idea, than using a "heavier" SS valve to address the issue were I in a decision making process on managing the issue.
On a side note some may find the following interesting as well when I asked about how far the history of using SS exhaust valves in the LS7 goes back. "Heavy" SS valves exhaust valves have been in use in these cars since 2005, and the earliest mention that I can find of it was done by forum vendor LG Motorsports. Same people whom I believe that 79inSD mentions in his earlier post. This was the response I got:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-z...post1582632612
When I see this following offering from the same outfit and the SS exhaust valves they elected to use in it, to me it ties in with some of their comments in the above, and makes me feel fine about "long term" use of SS exhaust valves in my car:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/auto...e-package.html
The first mention of one of the recent alternative setups that we see discussed on this forum as of late, and that I have been able to find, dates back about 8 months
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-z...d-special.html
So in terms of long term, I'd like to see more examples of alternative setups, including this one, as well.
However since Hib Halverson wrote the following posts, it indicated to me right away that "valvetrain weight" just might not the be all and end all, and using a valve with what Hib claims is the "worst" in terms of heat transfer capabilities of all available aftermarket choices, doesn't seem to me to be any "better" of an idea, and the way I look at it, might be an even worse idea, than using a "heavier" SS valve to address the issue were I in a decision making process on managing the issue.
On a side note some may find the following interesting as well when I asked about how far the history of using SS exhaust valves in the LS7 goes back. "Heavy" SS valves exhaust valves have been in use in these cars since 2005, and the earliest mention that I can find of it was done by forum vendor LG Motorsports. Same people whom I believe that 79inSD mentions in his earlier post. This was the response I got:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-z...post1582632612
When I see this following offering from the same outfit and the SS exhaust valves they elected to use in it, to me it ties in with some of their comments in the above, and makes me feel fine about "long term" use of SS exhaust valves in my car:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/auto...e-package.html
You just can't go wrong with an outfit like LG who has been around this forum for so many years and also participating in world class racing. They have quite a long track record !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
They are also a great sponsor of our 2014 Corvett Challenge and have been for the last 4 years.
DH
07-25-2014, 03:45 PM
#50
Team Owner
It may not have been my best bet at humor directed towards you. I was trying to say that I would trust you. I apologize for not making that clear.
But I do find it interesting that AH feels the need to mention a non supporting vendor who he feels is a direct threat to him. He should go to bed every night wishing he could have the succesful track record that the other vendor has with heads fixed in the SS valve protocol.
And don't you also want to know the usage and actual specs, not to mention the CF member who the car might belong to.
DH
07-25-2014, 03:53 PM
#51
Team Owner
I'm not arguing with you AT ALL!!!! But can you explain or show me something that says the PM guides you use are really that much better than bronze? I'm seriously just trying to make an educated decision on this. I'm in the midst of getting ready to have a set of heads re-worked and I find what you said about the PM guides very interesting. Meaning, it makes sense that PM guides would last longer but, I always like to know why when I can. Thanks!! You're welcome to PM me if you prefer to take this "offline", sir.
DH
07-25-2014, 04:07 PM
#53
Melting Slicks
Propain
It may not have been my best bet at humor directed towards you. I was trying to say that I would trust you. I apologize for not making that clear.
But I do find it interesting that AH feels the need to mention a non supporting vendor who he feels is a direct threat to him. He should go to bed every night wishing he could have the succesful track record that the other vendor has with heads fixed in the SS valve protocol.
And don't you also want to know the usage and actual specs, not to mention the CF member who the car might belong to.
DH
It may not have been my best bet at humor directed towards you. I was trying to say that I would trust you. I apologize for not making that clear.
But I do find it interesting that AH feels the need to mention a non supporting vendor who he feels is a direct threat to him. He should go to bed every night wishing he could have the succesful track record that the other vendor has with heads fixed in the SS valve protocol.
And don't you also want to know the usage and actual specs, not to mention the CF member who the car might belong to.
DH
I think we got that answer. As good of an answer as anyone else who posts on this forum. 20K miles. No track use and only headers and I would imagine a tune. Just bolt on's no internal mods except for the head work. Bronze/SS/Dual Springs. As far as if they belong to this forum who knows. Who cares really other than to ask more questions.
I think its fair that he mentions WCCH as the head supplier. Why not? He is a paying vendor and WCCH gets plenty of recommendations on this forum without paying a dime. I think its fair game.
As far as track records there is no question WCCH is a good head shop and I have used them many times.
Any conclusion on how this modification is doing though comes from a very small sample set. This report from AH, your report on your tear down I think are the only two I have seen on this forum. When we see 100's of cars going 25-50K miles and inspecting with minimal wear and still in spec we can start calling it a successful track records with this mod.
07-25-2014, 05:39 PM
#54
Supporting Vendor
Member Since: Sep 2013
Location: Harbor City California
Posts: 2,815
Received 1,012 Likes
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533 Posts
Sent our guides and a competitor bronze guide out to get harness tested.
Our aftermarket AHP hardened PM guide: HRC40 (c scale)
popular aftermarket bronze guide used by competitors: HRC25 (c scale)
YES OUR HARDENED AFTERMARKET PM GUIDE IS SUPERIOR TO THE COMPETITIONS BRONZE GUIDE.
Data kinda spells that one out clearly.
stock roller rocker produce alot of valve side loading, the softer the guide the more it will wear when exposed to valve side loading.
We have over 30 sets of LS7 heads with our aftermarket AHP hardened PM guides. All happy customers.
Our most popular is our package #4 with the hollow Ferrea valves and our PM guides.
Starts at just $1,228
http://www.americanheritageperformance.com/
We also have core sets ready to go, for those that dont want any down time.
We stand behind every head we sell and offer support to those DIY guys.
Our aftermarket AHP hardened PM guide: HRC40 (c scale)
popular aftermarket bronze guide used by competitors: HRC25 (c scale)
YES OUR HARDENED AFTERMARKET PM GUIDE IS SUPERIOR TO THE COMPETITIONS BRONZE GUIDE.
Data kinda spells that one out clearly.
stock roller rocker produce alot of valve side loading, the softer the guide the more it will wear when exposed to valve side loading.
We have over 30 sets of LS7 heads with our aftermarket AHP hardened PM guides. All happy customers.
Our most popular is our package #4 with the hollow Ferrea valves and our PM guides.
Starts at just $1,228
http://www.americanheritageperformance.com/
We also have core sets ready to go, for those that dont want any down time.
We stand behind every head we sell and offer support to those DIY guys.
07-25-2014, 07:14 PM
#55
Team Owner
I have thick skin which is more than I can say for some vendors .....
One of the worst business tactics is to attack your competitors. Most professionals (this is how we do it in the medical world) will not bad mouth their peers but instead place a call (which I actually recommended in this case) and discuss issues as necessary. Most perceptive consumers will see this as a big red flag when evaluating a vendors integrity.
And look for some new video after tommorows track day
DH
07-25-2014, 07:33 PM
#56
Supporting Vendor
Member Since: Sep 2013
Location: Harbor City California
Posts: 2,815
Received 1,012 Likes
on
533 Posts
Thanks.
I have thick skin which is more than I can say for some vendors .....
One of the worst business tactics is to attack your competitors. Most professionals (this is how we do it in the medical world) will not bad mouth their peers but instead place a call (which I actually recommended in this case) and discuss issues as necessary. Most perceptive consumers will see this as a big red flag when evaluating a vendors integrity.
And look for some new video after tommorows track day
DH
I have thick skin which is more than I can say for some vendors .....
One of the worst business tactics is to attack your competitors. Most professionals (this is how we do it in the medical world) will not bad mouth their peers but instead place a call (which I actually recommended in this case) and discuss issues as necessary. Most perceptive consumers will see this as a big red flag when evaluating a vendors integrity.
And look for some new video after tommorows track day
DH
Then you asked me if our guides were superior to other vendors bronze guides (im not sure if it was this thread or another that you asked this). I responded to this by posting that our guides have a hardness of hrc40 and the competitors bronze guide has a hardness of hrc25. This means that our guide is harder than the competitors guide. We feel that this alone makes our hardened PM guide superior.
I see no bashing or bad business tactics in that at all, just posting up our viewpoint. I see that you have an issue with it because it differs from your view point. While i respect your professional opinion in this matter, we feel that you are incorrect and misleading alot of CF member when you consistently tell members to go bronze and solid SS. I wonder why GM didn't use bronze and a heavy SS valves, it most certainly would have been cheaper.
How do your track videos prove that a bronze guide is superior to a PM guide, that SS valves is superior to the F2042P valves? There are plenty of track videos on this forum from members running our heads. I believe we even have a member on this forum with a sub 8 second nurburging time with our heads.
Last edited by American Heritage; 07-25-2014 at 07:47 PM. Reason: wording
07-25-2014, 07:58 PM
#57
Burning Brakes
All we did was post up a fact: that we had a Z in the shop with wcch heads (bronze guides and SS valves) that failed its wiggle test.
Then you asked me if our guides were superior to other vendors bronze guides (im not sure if it was this thread or another that you asked this). I responded to this by posting that our guides have a hardness of hrc40 and the competitors bronze guide has a hardness of hrc25. This means that our guide is harder than the competitors guide. We feel that this alone makes our hardened PM guide superior.
I see no bashing or bad business tactics in that at all, just posting up our viewpoint. I see that you have an issue with it because it differs from your view point. While i respect your professional opinion in this matter, we feel that you are incorrect and misleading alot of CF member when you consistently tell members to go bronze and solid SS. I wonder why GM didn't use bronze and a heavy SS valves, it most certainly would have been cheaper.
How do your track videos prove that a bronze guide is superior to a PM guide, that SS valves is superior to the F2042P valves? There are plenty of track videos on this forum from members running our heads. I believe we even have a member on this forum with a sub 8 second nurburging time with our heads.
Then you asked me if our guides were superior to other vendors bronze guides (im not sure if it was this thread or another that you asked this). I responded to this by posting that our guides have a hardness of hrc40 and the competitors bronze guide has a hardness of hrc25. This means that our guide is harder than the competitors guide. We feel that this alone makes our hardened PM guide superior.
I see no bashing or bad business tactics in that at all, just posting up our viewpoint. I see that you have an issue with it because it differs from your view point. While i respect your professional opinion in this matter, we feel that you are incorrect and misleading alot of CF member when you consistently tell members to go bronze and solid SS. I wonder why GM didn't use bronze and a heavy SS valves, it most certainly would have been cheaper.
How do your track videos prove that a bronze guide is superior to a PM guide, that SS valves is superior to the F2042P valves? There are plenty of track videos on this forum from members running our heads. I believe we even have a member on this forum with a sub 8 second nurburging time with our heads.
07-25-2014, 07:59 PM
#58
Burning Brakes
Propain
It may not have been my best bet at humor directed towards you. I was trying to say that I would trust you. I apologize for not making that clear.
But I do find it interesting that AH feels the need to mention a non supporting vendor who he feels is a direct threat to him. He should go to bed every night wishing he could have the succesful track record that the other vendor has with heads fixed in the SS valve protocol.
And don't you also want to know the usage and actual specs, not to mention the CF member who the car might belong to.
DH
It may not have been my best bet at humor directed towards you. I was trying to say that I would trust you. I apologize for not making that clear.
But I do find it interesting that AH feels the need to mention a non supporting vendor who he feels is a direct threat to him. He should go to bed every night wishing he could have the succesful track record that the other vendor has with heads fixed in the SS valve protocol.
And don't you also want to know the usage and actual specs, not to mention the CF member who the car might belong to.
DH
07-25-2014, 08:01 PM
#59
Burning Brakes
Sent our guides and a competitor bronze guide out to get harness tested.
Our aftermarket AHP hardened PM guide: HRC40 (c scale)
popular aftermarket bronze guide used by competitors: HRC25 (c scale)
YES OUR HARDENED AFTERMARKET PM GUIDE IS SUPERIOR TO THE COMPETITIONS BRONZE GUIDE.
Data kinda spells that one out clearly.
stock roller rocker produce alot of valve side loading, the softer the guide the more it will wear when exposed to valve side loading.
We have over 30 sets of LS7 heads with our aftermarket AHP hardened PM guides. All happy customers.
Our most popular is our package #4 with the hollow Ferrea valves and our PM guides.
Starts at just $1,228
http://www.americanheritageperformance.com/
We also have core sets ready to go, for those that dont want any down time.
We stand behind every head we sell and offer support to those DIY guys.
Our aftermarket AHP hardened PM guide: HRC40 (c scale)
popular aftermarket bronze guide used by competitors: HRC25 (c scale)
YES OUR HARDENED AFTERMARKET PM GUIDE IS SUPERIOR TO THE COMPETITIONS BRONZE GUIDE.
Data kinda spells that one out clearly.
stock roller rocker produce alot of valve side loading, the softer the guide the more it will wear when exposed to valve side loading.
We have over 30 sets of LS7 heads with our aftermarket AHP hardened PM guides. All happy customers.
Our most popular is our package #4 with the hollow Ferrea valves and our PM guides.
Starts at just $1,228
http://www.americanheritageperformance.com/
We also have core sets ready to go, for those that dont want any down time.
We stand behind every head we sell and offer support to those DIY guys.
07-25-2014, 08:46 PM
#60
^This is why I went with American Heritage... it all comes down to what you believe after doing YOUR research... is right for YOU, and what allows you to sleep better at night. For me, bronze guides were used in racing application... ran 7000+RPM's for a short while then rebuilt (no real long term data). I chose PM guides for their durability vs bronze. What do I know... but I sleep great at night. Thank Khole!!