NavyAirTraffic

I just joined the LS7 community about 2 months ago.... well I am really shook up about the whole valve guide issues. Enough so, I put it up for sale recently after doing sooooo much to get it to where I am happy with it.

Ok, time for my questions

1. How much does a WCCH head cost, which one do I want? (core no core)
2. How much is the labor? (well aware this will vary)
3. After the head is removed and shipped to WCCH, will the dealer/repair shop just leave my car there until it's done?
4. Can I take my car to WCCH or do they only want heads (I live about 3.5 hours away from them)?
5. If I'm getting the heads done, is it worth getting it cammed, and how much more is that?
6. Do the heads come with rockers, or is that additional? (mine is an early model 07 known to have issues)
7. Any information you have on the WCCH/head replacement experience would be great!!

^^I'm aware that several of these questions I can ask directly to WCCH but I fig'd I'd try here first.

I really don't want to sell the Z, I just put for sale to see how much interest I'd get, and I've gotten a lot. I have one serious buyer and before I get a serious offer I want to see if the cost/hassle of the new heads is worth not selling it. Appreciate your input in advance.

**Oh, almost forgot. No, I haven't gotten them checked yet. I called 2 places... the first said "ehh, don't worry about it unless you hear a ticking sound/check engine light/smoke out the back end". The second place said "I'll check into how much it'll cost to check the tolerances and I'll get back to you".... that was 2 weeks ago, not a peep yet!! So, instead of spending $400-500 to get them check, I was thinking take that money and just get the valves upgraded (possible cam if worthwhile). Ok, now I'm done. Any input would be great.

'06 Quicksilver Z06

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You got it.

You can see my own thread.

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-z...s-of-pics.html

The thread shows my spare set of heads after they got back. They started out as this:







Well, others who have had work done by them will likely chime in, but you did make a good start by looking for imput from those who have had done what you are contemplating.

No problem.

Your approach makes perfect sense to me.

Good luck and you are off to a good start. That is the most important thing.

ZedNought6

^^^Doing Heads by WCCH, Cam from Katech and Headers by Pfadt, plus a few other things. I figured if I was going to address the valve issue I might as well drop some performance parts in as well. The heads are remanned OEMS. The price is listed on their site, I did the Ti Intakes and SS exhaust. My builder suggested Trunion upgrade and new OEM rockers as well as a few other things. Labor charges for the build were super reasonable IMHO, about the cost of the heads. However, all the other upgrades I did at the same time added up to some $,$$$. If you want piece of mind and not a whole ton of performance the job is not that bad on the wallet.

I'm being vague as I'm not sure what the forum rules Quick is referring to, and I really don't feel like reading them right now . This valve issue is a social land mine though in the vette forum and I try and stay away from the discussions associated with them to be honest. But if you want some info from somebody is in process PM me. My mechanical knowledge on the subject is limited, but I'll tell you my thoughts for what they are worth as well as the research that I have done.

NavyAirTraffic

@Quicksilver, thank you for the rapid and thorough reply! I have learned a lot.

@ZedNought6, PM sent.

Dirty Howie

I only live about 40 minutes form WCCH so was just able to drive down there and pick the up and take them to my local shop CMS to have installed. So if you don't want down time just buy a used set have them shipped to Richard and then shipped back you when completed. Then you sell your original heads after they are removed in the swap. Thats what I and many other have done.

My experience has been stellar. I have met with Richard at his shop 3 times. Do a search and you will find my pictorial I did of WCCH shop.

I kept my stock cam and just did what he recommended .... SS valves, bronze guides, dual springs, valve job. 19K miles and 10 track days and all is great


DH

sublime1996525

Minkster

Before you do anything drastic, read this thread which contains the only test data on various valve train setups in controlled conditions I have seen on this forum so far:

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-z...tte-forum.html

If you're in Yuma did you check with dealers in Tucson or San Diego? Hard to believe there isn't one in those two locals that can't do a wiggle test for you.

JoesC5

I went with aftermarket PRC265 heads with Ti intakes and SS exhaust valves for $3,000 that I ordered two weeks prior to my car going into the shop. Ended up with a total bill of $5,300 including labor. Then I sold the take off GM heads to another forum member for $1,000 and shipped them to WCCH for him to have rebuilt and installed on his car. So it ended up costing me $4,300 to fix GM's crap. That included the heads and shipping, all the fluids and gaskets, new spark plugs, new pushrods, and dyno time(and sales tax).

That way, their is minimal time that the car is down. There are cheaper ways of doing it, but since I didn't want to mess with it, I turned it over to a shop and went with heads where everything, including the castings, were 100% new. Also, I got a slight improvement in torque and horsepower as the PRC265 heads flow 9% better on the intakes and 12% better on the exhaust vs the OE heads.

619grappler

Yuma huh? That's my home town brother. I'd recommend Cunningham Motorsports if you're looking to get the whole heads/cam package. And with no smog to worry about in Yuma, you can go all-out with headers and a nice, healthy cam. That said, they're a busy shop, and don't expect to get your car back for 3-4 weeks. At least that was my experience which I don't think is the norm. They had some issues with parts coming in late on my build; namely my headers.

I'm running WCCH stage II heads and have complete faith in them. CMS recommended them and their builds are dead reliable. Don't sell it, fix the heads. I read all the debates back and forth between the cause and the real "fix". I decided to not be a fence-rider and do something about it. I was out of warranty and didn't want to drop a valve. I think it's a real issue; there's a thread every week on another engine failure. And that's not counting the failures that haven't been reported here. I know of a couple. Yes, there's also been a couple of SS valves that failed. But from what I've read they were both from the same shop; not WCCH. To the naysayers, point me to a failed WCCH set of reworked heads.

MTIRC6Z

Stop, take a breath and think about what you're about to do...for starters you are talking about 'fixing' something you are not even sure has a problem. Secondly, the 'fix' itself can be somewhat debatable but that notwithstanding, IF you have something that actually has a high potential of breaking (ie. heads with very excessive valve guide clearance) then you need to do something. Thing is, you don't KNOW if you have a problem and yet here you are getting all kinds of details about spending upwards of $5000!

I find it amazing that no one has asked you anything about the history of your car and your particular situation...like for all we know you have a 2 month old 2013 with 200 miles on it and a 10 year warranty! Or you could have an '06 with 500,000 track miles of it. Think about why these guys wouldn't be asking you for this kind of information, information which is very important in helping you to analyse your situation.

Consider further that no one has yet mentioned there is some risk associated with doing this kind of work, like my friend who fell pray to the same fears you are now having immediately after getting his Z06 and visiting this forum. He went to one of the largest most reputable dealers in the province, asked about the head issue, was happily sold a new set of heads (without ever determining IF they were needed) and then on the way home spun a bearing and subsequently had to replace the whole engine...ended up spending way more than $5000 for a problem he may likely have never had in the first place!!!

RULE # 1...don't fix what's not broke, so at least make sure you need heads before spending all that money. There are Z06s on this forum that have as much as 200,000 trouble free miles.

RULE # 2...be very careful about hype on the internet. Virtually everybody that ever has a problem comes to the forum and screams about the world of injustice, while the thousands and thousands and thousands who never have a problem don't even know this forum exists...but if they ever have a problem you can be sure they find it in no time flat.

Cheers, Paul.

Achilles97

I followed the popular approach of getting the exhaust valves replaced with stainless steel valves by WCCH. I cut the costs down by not getting the heads ported.

1. How much does a WCCH head cost, which one do I want? (core no core)
   I went through a local speed shop. They charged me $850 for the WCCH valve job. Add another $75 or so for fluids and gaskets.
   
2. How much is the labor? (well aware this will vary)
   8 hours x $95 per hour.
   
3. After the head is removed and shipped to WCCH, will the dealer/repair shop just leave my car there until it's done?
   My speed shop had some cores in stock from other customers so they were able to send those off to WCCH. They then installed those WCCH heads on my car and kept my heads when they pulled them off. This resulted in only 2 days of downtime.
   
4. Can I take my car to WCCH or do they only want heads (I live about 3.5 hours away from them)?
5. If I'm getting the heads done, is it worth getting it cammed, and how much more is that?
   I got my car cammed while the heads were getting replaced. I was able to save $300 by combining the jobs. The cam install (+tune) was $1,800 on top of the head install. Total price for cam install, tune, and head replacement was around $3,800.
   
6. Do the heads come with rockers, or is that additional? (mine is an early model 07 known to have issues)
   My heads came with stock rockers and dual valve springs.
   
7. Any information you have on the WCCH/head replacement experience would be great!!
   The WCCH heads are just fine. You can feel confident in their work. You should look around for a good shop that has in-house cores so you can avoid downtime.

Good luck!

Unreal

Doing the swap yourself isn't hard if you have tools.

$800-900 for WCCH to rebuild the heads. $150-200 in gaskets/fluids. Labor will be free to $1000 or so depending on the shop.

Personally I've never seen a set of heads "in spec". I know of two local AZ people that just had theirs done and both were in horrible shape. Neither of them wiggle tested but they were happy as hell when the got it taken care of. One was 4x the service limit and had a cracked exhaust valve. Trying to get pictures and more info because that is very interesting. Maybe he caught it just in time. If the crack is proprogating around the weld that would be very very interesting.

If you are out of warranty and have >20k miles I would just pull the heads and get them refreshened. If it is in warranty then just keep it stock and hope for the best until it isn't in warranty anymore.

Bill Dearborn

OP, you didn't say what year car you have and whether or not the 5 yr/100K powertrain warranty is in effect. If the warranty is in effect you have little to worry about other than some inconvenience if a valve drops. As long as your powertrain remains stock and there is no evidence of a tune GM is very good about honoring that warranty even though the car might see heavy duty track use. The other thing you need to think about is how you are using the car. Most dropped valve cases are in cars that see heavy duty track use. I purchased my Z with 13K miles and put on another 10K miles (including 4K track miles) before the valve dropped. GM covered me. I personally know of 9 engines (including mine) that had valve drops. All involved cars that were heavily tracked. 1 out of the 9 dropped an intake valve. The only one not covered by GM was the dropped intake valve and that was because the owner didn't ask them. You may or may not have excessively worn guides but what is the likelihood you will drop a valve if you aren't tracking the car? Probably not that likely.

Just two years ago the forum mood was there wasn't a problem but now the mood has changed into a "the sky is falling" mood. Let's just say there is a problem but the sky isn't falling. However, the constant drum beat of threads and posts about fixing the guides makes it seem like the problem is worse than it is. We don't even know for sure that loose guides are the actual cause of the problem. GM indicated they found from investigating returned engines and heads the problem was due to a supplier incorrectly machining heads during a certain time period. Supposedly that problem was resolved in Feb. 2011.

Bill

MTIRC6Z

Why would you ask for such relevant information...please just tell the man what he needs to do. IE. go to WCCH, spend at least $5000, and do it right now before he dies in a huge ball of fire taking hundreds of innocents with him

Cheers, Paul.

NavyAirTraffic

First, thanks for everyone for chiming in. Although I am not an active participant in my own thread, I check the thread on the hour for updates. Also thanks for the PM's that have been helpful as well.

3 hours away, that'll be problematic if I decide to get the work done. However a reputable shop 3 hours away is better than garbage local work.

2007, 19000 miles. I purchased the car from a exotic rental shop in Las Vegas. I'm 100% sure this thing was ridden hard.... nobody rents a Z06 for $500 a day to drive slow. Also, I drove the car HARD before becoming fully aware of the valve issues.

My whole theory again: why spend $400-500 to see if it's out of spec when I could just allocate that money for a permanent fix? It's a theory, and I love being proved wrong.

I am out the warranty. I drive the car regularly (I've put 1500mi on it in the last 2 months). No track time, but I like to rip on it once in a while.

I'm a decision disaster.... sell *or* get them check *or* hell with it, just get the work done and over with already. I rotate between these three thoughts constantly. Also, I don't know of anyone on this forum (again my time here is minimal) who had their valve guides checked and they were within spec. I'm sure some of the naysayers would jump at the opportunity to start a "Just had my valve guides checked and they are fine" thread.

Vette @ 71

Having a pretty clear understanding of how the car was likely driven prior to your ownership and if you want to be able to reasonably fall asleep without fears of a possible significant engine problem, (due to worn guides) get the heads re-worked. Sounds like you have already decided on doing it so just do it!!

NavyAirTraffic

I haven't decided anything.... well I 100% decide on a course of action for 1-2 hours, then I change my mind.

To all the people PM'ing me, I AM reading them, I TRULY appreciate them, I will write all of you back with Q's and thanks but..... I have my son all by myself today (2.5 months old), leisure time is nonexistent!

RedZ4me

Power of the internet..............amazing

Dirty Howie

Very interesting would be an understatement


DH

Unreal

It was posted on a local board. Copy and pasted from there:
"Just wanted to say that all my valve guides were worn beyond spec and 1 exhaust valve was cracked! I opted for the stage 2 heads that includes ss valves springs and port and polished ports."