SSMOKE

"06 Quicksilver Z06 I have a question for you. I would like to keep the light OEM valves, but you have got me 90% + convinced to go one piece SS and bronze guides.

While I am at it, I am adding a TORQUER 110 and C5R timing chain. Do I need anything more than WCCH's Stage 2 for $1518.84? I am not too sure, and while I will ultimately call Richard, I figured you are the guy to ask. I am not too clear on porting and milling either.

Thanks for your help. My other option and smarter route is to just post my beloved Z in the FOR SALE section.

X25

LS7 has bigger valves than LS2/3. To offset the weight increase of bigger valves and to let it rev higher (redline is 7000+ on LS7 v.s. 6600(?) RPM on LS2/3), GM had to go with lighter alloy (and more expensive) valves. This is documented, and is also mentioned during the introduction of LS7 and C6 Z06. I thought you had better reasons, but if this is your basis for your reasoning, that it is just a marketing gimmick, I believe you are grossly underestimating the engineering, design, and manufacturing that go into these cars. In other words, I don't think they needed to say 'it has Ti valves' to ask $68K at its introduction

'06 Quicksilver Z06

My car and several others in here with solid stemmd stainless exhaust valves revs just fine to 7K. Furthermore, there is the video of AzZ06Mike's car going well beyond that and with an aftermarket cam in it possibly making control of his valve train just that more tricky.

So it can be done. Safely and successfully with a heavier valve. And is done.

What's your point?

I never said that it was "just a marketing gimmick".

I said that part of their motivation may have been in marketing.

If you don't believe that marketing can and does play a role in the selection of components in vehicles as well as other consumer products, well that's fine. I do believe that it can.

Well, we're talking about the exhaust valve choice here. The exhaust valves are not "Ti".

BTW, I asked in a prior post in response to your inquiry as to why I again made mention of the 400 mile 9/12 build LS7, if you thought that the install of a new crate motor at the dealership, could have played a role in the valve guide wear that owner saw in terms of out of spec guide(s) at just 400 miles.

You never answered. I wonder why not.

Ozer? You there?

'06 Quicksilver Z06

Well, about the valves, it really comes down to horse sense and kitchen table logic.

Risk vs benefit.

You have to ask yourself, and in so doing, give yourself an honest answer as to if the light OEM valves are giving you any practical advantage, that you can discern, benefit from, feel, or appreciate, on the street or the track, which makes them worth the risk of you potentially experiencing having one of them do the same thing that others have done in here, and that's fail.

Now I'm not "poo pooing" a lighter valve train. I like the idea of a light valve train just as much as the next guy.

But personally, using my car like I use it, getting the results thus far from it that I have gotten and knowing that it has more in it, planning to keep it for a few more years, I am simply not willing to trade the durability and ruggedness of my current exhaust valves, for lighter valves which have a record of having failed in here and outside of here.

I don't see that as an equitable trade, because I see nothing that the stock OEM valves offer me, on the street or the track, in any way that I use my car, over and above what I currently have, aside from the potential for breakage. But now some will see it differently, and I acknowledge that.

Some will either knowingly assume, justify, or outright refuse to accept the prospect of increased risk, of running the stock exhaust valves, for whatever "benefit" they perceive, and feel that it was worth it. Even in the face of past and current failures.

People are of course free to do with their personal property, what they wish.

Now that we have that out of the way.

If you are considering WCCH heads, then definitely give Richard a call and tell him what you are trying to do.

State your goals to him, tell him what you are trying to do, and he will make suggestions and recommendations for you, and most importantly tell you why he recommends what he does.

My goals were.

1. Address the LS7 valve train issue.

2. Increase power but remain normally aspirated.

3. Cam, but nothing too aggressive that it would kill my car's street manners. I wasn't trying to build a race car.

4. Dependability. Above all else the package we completed, had to be dependable. It had to fire up when I hit the start button, my air conditioner and everything else had to still work same as before.

Your goals may differ.

Good luck though with whatever you decide on.

azZ06Mike

My car is doing just fine with the WCCH head upgrade to SS valves and guides. The small amount of added weight to me is not a concern. In fact once we modify these cars we are not sure what the weight effect has if any. The mods we do are not calculated and designed like a GM factory car is.

People have been changing valve trains for years and i doubt they HAVE THE DATA!

azZ06Mike

only THING I DON'T LIKE IS THE ticking noise i hear from the engine bay but that's the nature of the beast i guess with the ls7.

'06 Quicksilver Z06

I think it's those springs.

Other thing I wanted to ask you was, do you have an aluminum flywheel?

Less rotating mass.

Great video and pass BTW, and you did the forum an even greater service than perhaps you even realized when you made the pass with the HP Tuners Pro logging the pass, and showing what the car was doing, and GoPro camera.

You actually show, where you car, will not only reach to it's 7K redline, but safely go beyond that. So the statements are no longer anecdotal. People can now actually see it being done. I believe that I saw a little over 7300 RPM at about 0:39 seconds of the video.

And with a higher lift cam too, where keeping the valve train together can be even more difficult.

That video has already gone, and is going to go, a long way toward disproving the fallacy that a slightly heavier exhaust valve kills the car's stock redline capabilities.

Vette @ 71

Are you suggesting Katech would use them if they could get some?

Random84

I wish katech would finish up their valvetrain float/stability testing already, so we can put this "heavy vs light" valve thing to rest!

'06 Quicksilver Z06

Interesting. I wonder why do you think that it would be to anyone's "dismay", just what Katech was doing with regard to this matter?

Katech isn't the only game in town. There are several other vendors in here whose packages are successful, and whose experience, and experiences, just as valid and valuable to us.

A lot of people in here are, well, apathetic, as to what Katech advocates or does with regard to this matter, and instead choose to seek the advice and services of other very qualified professionals available to them in here.

In all sincerity, you really need to do a little more research on what has been said in these discussions.

So if they can get stock guides from LPE, then why wouldn't they have those sent to WCCH and have WCCH use them in the heads that they do for them?

X25

You can also put a supercharger on an LS3 and make 650HP; it can be done, seemingly safely and successfully. Too bad, GM went crazy and they created a $20K motor (LS9).. The marketing must have played a role :P

Did you get my point?

You basically said GM might have slapped in exotic parts possibly as a show off for their marketing purposes. That doesn't make sense to me at all. There are many other places mostly inside and outside the car where you can invest to attract more buyers; certainly not a valve-train!

I'm sorry if you were waiting for an answer; you talk a lot, and I don't always have time

That motor did not come with the car, and is rather installed by the dealer. Who knows what happened; something may have been installed wrong. Let me give you an example: when you replace the turbocharger with a new one, you need to make sure the turbo is well-lubricated before ever starting the car. To do so, you usually have to crank the engine without ever starting it for some time. When we installed such a new turbo to my Subaru STi that I owned at the time, we cranked it for 15 seconds but apparently it was not enough. The turbocharger died after the first 100 miles. I can easily see something like this happening here. They might not have primed the oiling system, and running the engine without oil even for a few seconds can substantially damage the engine. I don't want to elaborate on what exactly happened to this engine, because I just don't know. However, I have seen dealers install things wrong way too many times, and I would not be surprised if it played a role here. It should not be too hard for you to consider this possibility, either?

Long story short, I would much rather comment on concrete facts, but we don't have much. Just because an LS7 revs to 7000 RPMs with heavier valve-train with no apparent issues doesn't mean it is a viable solution for a manufacturer who needs to back it up with a long warranty.

Mark2009

You took that quote out of context. He is referring to the need to use bronze guides with the ti-mo exhaust valves, in a conversation unrelated to the first 4 quotes you posted.
.

'06 Quicksilver Z06

Doesn't the LS9 have a few other items in it than just a blower which differentiates it from the LS3?

You want to go over into the ZR1 section and tell them that their LS9s are nothing more than an LS3 with a blower on it?

Why not?

Weren't their competitors at the time, among them the Dodge Viper, using hollow stemmed sodium filled valves?

Didn't the prior rendition of the Z06 use the highly touted "lightweight" hollow stemmed valve?

I wonder what impact it would have had amongst the Corvette faithful, waiting with baited breath, if they had built this car with solid stemmed exhaust valves in it.

And while we are talking about competition.....didn't the Ferrari F355s, which also used a hollow stemmed exhaust valve, have some of the same valve and guide issues many of us in here are facing?

Was it the 308 or the 355?
http://www.ferrarilife.com/forums/pr...e-rebuild.html

Perhaps, but I think that it was more a case of you not getting the answer you expected.

I don't think you ever expected me to be able to point to a case of a 3rd quarter LS7 build with bad guides in it.

When I did, all that you could do was grasp at straws and imply that something must have gone wrong at the install of the crate motor at the dealership.

Like you are doing below.

Yes, the dealer removed the heads, took a fluted drill bit, and reamed out that intake guide and then put everything back together.


Never mind.

You want so badly to believe that this matter has been taken care of, that when someone shows you proof of not one but TWO cars which had the problem which GM says they took care of in February of 2011, that you start grasping at straws.


Are you forgetting that the first C6 Z06s had 3 y/36K mile powertrain warranties?

They could just as easily kept it that way.

Furthermore, out of all of the warranty claims on these cars which they have denied, for "racing", after they marketed the car as being track capable, I think they still probably make out OK.

'06 Quicksilver Z06

I make it a point to leave the post numbering in whomever's post I quote.

This way the reader can go back and read the post in it's entirety or the whole thread in it's entirety if he wishes and decide for himself what "context" the quote is in.

But it is interesting that you brought this up Mark200X.

Because I wonder why, if they can get stock guides from Lingenfelter, why they wouldn't just send them to WCCH with instructions to use them for their cylinder head rebuilds which WCCH does for them instead of having them use bronze.

Using the bronze guides in their head rebuilds, requires the use of the more expensive Ti/Mo coated intake valves which cost about $160.00 apiece. While OTOH, A stock intake valve, Part number 12591644, costs about $75.00 at GM Parts Direct.

So if they can get the stock powdered metal guides from Lingenfelter, why not just send 16 of them along with the heads they want redone, to Richard, tell him to use the enclosed powdered metal guides they're sending him, and both stock hollow stemmed exhaust valves, which he was going to use for them anyway, and stock titanium intake valves at $75.00 apiece, as opposed to using his bronze guides, which require the use of Ti/Mo coated intake valves at $160.00 apiece?
http://store.katechengines.com/titan...alve-p290.aspx

Yes, but there is no need to use the more expensive Ti/Mo coated intake valves if the stock guides are used.

So if they can get the stock guides from Lingenfelter, then why not use them, instead of Richard's bronze guides which require the owner to upgrade to the $160.00 Ti/Mo coated intake valves.
http://store.katechengines.com/titan...alve-p290.aspx

I think he spells out the reason why they don't stick with the stock guides in the head rebuilds WCCH does for them in the posts he put up before, where he says:

So what exactly, is it that you are arguing is out of context?

Random84

I'll leave it up to you two to argue over Katech's intent (it was off topic for my purposes).

Besides, my comment - as quoted - was simply orientated to "I wish Katech would publish their valvetrain testing..." so we all KNOW whether or not there are stability issues with using heavier valves. I'd really like to know if there's any stability issues with OEM or the torquer cam and heavier valves... if only for ***** and giggles.

Instead of just guessing and arguing that it's right (from the same guy who dismissed a 25% increase in valve stem thickness as negligible because it could be measured with pubic hairs...); my comment was really a genuine request for the information that would help those considering solid valves feel more confident in their choice.

But... same old, same old.

X25

OK, once again, you turned the discussion into personal attacks; sad. I'll certainly not play your game.

After all, there is a difference between a political debate and a scientific one: in one of them, personal attacks is the part of the game and truth and/or reason is less important than looking right.

'06 Quicksilver Z06

That was funny though wasn't it?

I won't argue their "intent" Radon.

But this much we know from what we have seen posted.

If you have your heads done through them and get bronze guides, well then you will need $160.00 intake valves.

If you have your heads done using the stock guides, which Jason said that they can get through Lingenfelter, well then you can still use the $75.00 stock intake valves.

Mark2009

There's no decision to make. You quoted out of context, and it had nothing to do with the specific discussion you were quoting. Period, end, finis. The only way you got caught is because I took the time to check (the quote, as presented, even sounded out of context); those less wary may have taken your relation of the conversation as gospel, and they would have then been misled.

I'm not going to get into why someone, who is not participating in the thread, does this or that since the odds of misrepresenting their position or putting words into their mouth is too great. Of course if I was intending to misrepresent their position or put words into their mouth then perhaps I would have a different take on interpreting their words, motives, or posing hypothetical questions that they are not here to answer.

I figure if I can't make my argument based upon my own reasoning, perhaps buttressed by facts sourced from elsewhere -- facts, not opinions -- then I shouldn't bother to make that argument. Somebody might show up and start asking me questions that I couldn't answer, then I'd look the fool

As to my own opinion on the questions you posed, it seems that the moly coating running on bronze is a slicker solution than steel (or CrN) running on the 'iron' (powdered metal formulation), and when it comes to guides and guide wear I think everyone would agree that slicker is better, even if everyone can't afford it. If a metallurgist knew the exact composition of the OEM guide he could probably give you an intelligent answer instead of my shadetree guess.

'06 Quicksilver Z06

"personal attack"????

Woah, slow down..... what personal attack??? Where???

What, because I said that you were grasping at straws with your last comments? You have to be kidding me.

Well if I recall, you said:

But did I cry foul and holler "personal attack"????

Honestly, is it that every time that someone disagrees with some of you in here, or effectively counters your point, that you take it as a "personal attack"???

Sheesh.

azZ06Mike

Plain and simple if you have a z06 and do not fix the valve guides you will blow your motor.

If you can't afford $1800.00 to fix the fact because GM sucks as a company then please sell your z06 because you can't afford it!