Wing42

[QUOTE=Les;1583428842]

If you're out of warranty you'll need to find what makes you most comfortable, whatever that might be including nothing- I'm not going to get involved in that debate. If you're still covered by any type of warranty, I suggest you find a dealer with a reputation that even approaches the one that Rich (and Abel Chev.) has. I realize that's a big challenge and I wish all you guys well with it. The inspection should take less than 2 hours to do at whatever their shop rate is. For me it would have been $238 IIRC. I'm choosing my route because the work is covered under warranty and I will maintain that coverage. Based on what I heard today, they don't seem concerned about the valves themselves. I trust them- you folks can take that for what it's worth to you. I'm hopeful that these fresh heads have corrected whatever the problem is. GM's statement describing a machining error and Jason at Katech's recent statement regarding a concentricity issue could be consistent with one another. I'm hoping so and also that it has been resolved.



QUOTE]

I know this is a little off topic but... does anyone know of a dealership within a few hours of the Fort Gordon/Augusta GA area that has a reputation close to that of Rich/Abel Chevrolet???

PeteZO6

Good question. If you enter the p/n for the heads, 12578450 at, say, GM Parts Direct, you will see that in addition to the list price of $1250, and a "price" of $892.50, there is a core charge of $75. Not much of a core charge, but why does GM want them back? To recycle the aluminum?

Pete

RichieRichZ06

First off, thanks for the kind words and for being a loyal customer of mine for years. Hopefully the car is well and you are getting to enjoy it.

Last time you were in here (approx 6 months ago) GM had not released the bulletin on how to "deal" with the valve guide issue that's been beaten to death on the internet. To date, we have only had TWO stock LS7's fail due to an exhaust valve failure. Keep in mind the rather large number of Corvettes we see on a monthly basis. We have seen a couple additional failures that related to a valve failing, but they were in heavily modified engines (mine being one of them) or track use cars only.

Now that GM published a bulletin on how to handle the issue, we have a clear path to proceed down if a customer has a valvetrain noise, excessive oil consumption, oil smoke at start up etc. It is clear cut that IF the customer has a concern listed above, a valid warranty on an un-modified car and they are willing to pay the inspection fee if nothing is out of spec, then we are to proceed as directed in the bulletin. I tell every customer that comes in for an inspection that a guide that's out of spec does not mean the valve is going to drop the next time you hit the start button. I still stand by my original belief that the issue is still considerably over blown on the forum.

We've recorded measurements of .016 on a 2006 Z06 that had seen over 30 track days and had 80k miles on it. No noise, no oil consumption and still running strong. The customer wanted to check the guides and after seeing the results, decided to repair the heads. That car was at a two day track event at Thunderhill the day before he dropped it off here. That is almost 5 times the limit and no signs of failure. Contrary to what the dozen or so of the common posters on this issue woud have you believe, having a guide measure .005 does not mean your car is going to blow.

I find the most entertaining part of all these threads are the people who have recently had their heads repaired and are now on a quest to push it on everyone else in the world.

Call it awareness or whatever you want, but it certainly is at an all time high. However, I'm still not jumping on the band wagon. We have indeed witnessed a high percentage of LS7 engines that measure out of the serviceable limit, but as I stated above, I still do not feel that means the engine is about to grenade. If we are talking failures and using that as a measurement of how wide spread it is, then we are still very low. I wish that I could run a report on the number of LS7 powered cars we've serviced since their debut in late 2005, but I don't have a way to seperate one Corvette from the next in our system.

I will say that 2 stock engine failures related to a valve failure is a remarkably low number when you consider the number of cars that I've serviced in our dealership in the last 7 years.

Thanks Jimmy. I wish that I could open satellite dealerships all over the US so that we could take care of all Corvette owners and change their mind about GM dealers.


We are required to hold them here for up to 15 days after the warranty repair has been paid from GM. If they want, GM can request the parts sent back to their Warranty Parts Center for inspection. To date, we have only been asked for 1 set to be sent back. All of the others are sent back to GM's core processing facility and we receive our $150 core credit back that GM recently added to the heads. As of now, I have a stack of 16 heads that have been paid and are waiting to be sent back as cores.

Rock36

I still don't think it is likely that a set of heads that were delivered to Wixom prior to the Feburary 2011 100% inspections somehow sat untouched in inventory at Wixom for 3+ months.

Regardless of how many heads the vendor built ahead of time, assuming a J.I.T. model, GM would only order in limited quantaties from the vendor each time based on an optimization of demand, shipping/delivery costs, and inventory/carrying costs. So any heads ordered and delivered prior to the Feb 2011 inspections would quickly be installed, and GM would have to place a new order, likely well before May 2011.

Does anyone even know at what point in the process the heads were supposedly inspected? At delivery? By the engine builder? Somewhere in between? Because if the heads are inspected immediately prior to being bolted to the block during engine assembly, then there should be no problem past Feb 2011 period.

'06 Quicksilver Z06

Good information.

But to you part in bold above, well, I haven't seen such.

What I have seen though, is those who have recently had their heads repaired, myself included, take the approach that anyone else, well they can do whatever the heck they want with their personal property. The outcome, only affects them and their wallets. Not me and my wallet.

It they want to put their old valves, springs and retainers into a new set of stock castings, then that's their business.

That is hard to believe. You're talking 90+ days. If they had a 90 day supply of heads for the engines they were planning to build, then that would seem like a lot.

And that is what is also intriguing about this matter.

When a lot number of pharmaceuticals is found to be bad, or to have bad apples in it, then the company sends out a letter requesting the return of any of your inventory, and they are shipped back to the manufacturer, before being unleashed on the public.

It is beyond belief that known potentially bad heads, still on the shelves, would be allowed to go onto upcoming engine builds.

The other thing(s) that just won't go away is, what exactly did they supposedly fix in these "new" heads?

The real sticking point, is they say 2008-2011.

Well, we know for a fact, that heads were going bad, and guide wear has shown up in currently very low mileage cars, built well before 2008.

There are some low mileage 2006 and 2007 cars out there with the same problem.

Yet the bulletin said between 2008-2011.

OK, well what about the 2006 and 2007s which are low mileage and had guides out of spec inside of just a few miles?

There is just too much about this that just stinks.

And having as part of their fix, the reinstallation, and reuse of parts which have been operating inside of known out of spec heads, for who knows how many miles, doesn't make it smell any better.

LMB-Z

Thanks to Rich for the post. My problem is my local Chevy dealer is not a Corvette person. They sell very few Corvettes a year. My car is an early 06, out of warranty. I would truly love to have it looked at, and if needed, have the heads replaced. As of right now, I do not hear any unusual noises. The car is stock as far as I know. I do not race, track, or abuse it at all. It has seen red line once since I bought it Nov. 2011. I don't mind spending the money to have it looked at, just dont know who to take it to.

RichieRichZ06

Come on Ricky, you know that I luv ya, but you are guilty of the above. Every valve thread in the last couple months has been bumped to the top with your unparralleled quest to make people feel inferior if they do not immediately pull their heads and send them in. I know that it's human nature to justify ones expense on modifications to their car, but you have recently taken it to a whole new level.

I agree that people should do whatever makes them sleep better at night, but I don't think people should stop enjoying their cars because of this issue.

FrankTank

Rich I always appreciate your comments, and I think what you have stated is a reasonable approach or thoughts... I would just say this though.. those folks like me who have no warranty at all , and see cars that drop valves that have 11k miles on them, or cars with 15k miles on them wtih guides way out of spec , it's concerning... also, there is no pattern really.. like you pointed out , that car wtih Guides way out of spec with 80k miles on it that did fine at a track event , no issues...but yet we see cases of other cars bone stock, no track time , with 25k miles on them blow up cruising down the street

I typically don't get on band wagons that easily, however in this case the risk IMO is just too big, I'd rather spend 2,000 bucks on re-built heads, pick up some HP, than be trying to figure out how to come up with say 13,000 bucks for a new engine. I am not one to say "go out everyone and buy heads or your motor will blow" but I am looking at this very cautiously

Actually, anyone who has warranty, I would just say enjoy the car and don't worry about it, thats what warranty is for.

To each his own.

RichieRichZ06

I would ask around the regional sections of the forum and see if there are any dealers or even performance shops in your area. If you're out of warranty, the work does not have to be done at a dealer.

Rock36

Likewise, you could also say it is human nature to rationalize and justify why you shouldn't spend this kind of money on a possible mitgation.

'06 Quicksilver Z06

With all due respect Rich, and you know I love you too bro, but how are your own heads done?

Go ahead and tell us.

If getting a new set of castings and installing previously used exhaust valves, which have been running in out of spec guides for God only knows how long, is OK for these other folks, well then why not in your own car?

And especially for those out of warranty, what would you suggest that they do?

I'll say this again. Nobody in here is on any type of mission to make others follow the same route as they. But there are others in here who don't have warranties, and who are a considerable distance from Abel Chevrolet, and need to know just as badly, just what their options are.

Amen.

You know this goes a whole lot deeper when you are talking about that portion of our membership which is out of warranty, or headed out of warranty and considering aftermarket warranties, and news like this, that one more warranty option which they once had, from a supposedly reputable company, is no longer going to be available, comes out.

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-z...one-sales.html

It's easy to talk about how you "find the most entertaining part of all these threads are the people who have recently had their heads repaired and are now on a quest to push it on everyone else in the world", when your own heads are fixed and have been running strong and for a period of YEARS, and in a different manner than GM's current recommended fix, while there are others out there out of warranty , and with aftermarket warranty options diminishing, who want and need to know, what their options are.

zcarbon

HIS ORDEAL,Put him out of his MISERY

jedblanks

My 2007 was built in 2006, so I'll check when I get them back if the stamp is 05 or 06.

Either way they will be 100% inspected when I get them back.

I partially agree with the statement that out of spec != dropped valve.
Out of spec --> more out of spec --> way out of spec --> maybe dropping a valve

Much like changing the oil at 3000 and 70% DIC, 5000 50% , or 10000 0%

I'm a 3000 or less guy, so I pulled my heads.
Total cost with the labor being done myself is about $970
Gaskets/Bolts $140
Guides/Valves $200
Dual Springs $220
Machine work $410

I didn't include oil or coolant, both are due for me anyway.

I don't consider 950 a big spend for the Z. It is well worth it for the piece of mind. Much like the extra $200 every 10000 miles is worth it to be a 3k oil changer.

I am, however, still bitter. Until that bitterness fades, the avatar will be a Ford product.

andy82

Good move! Abel changed my heads 2 weeks ago.

1981turbota

Les, I'm glad you caught it before it got ugly. It was a jaw dropper...Good luck with your repairs!

Les

Good for you Andy.
Thanks! Between your thread and some other info I gathered recently, I actually would have been more surprised if my valve guides were within spec. Best of luck to you too.

RichieRichZ06

I think that you know my real story behind that because it's posted in one of your threads regarding the solid valves.

My original engine, when it blew, left no salvagable pieces to use on a new build. I had to buy two new head castings, block etc... Those castings were sent to WCCH per Jason's recommendation, while my shortblock was being built by Katech. There was a misunderstanding between WCCH and myself and somehow my heads were assembled with stainless valves. I was under the impression they were going to be assembled with new hollow valves. I wanted the lighter weight valvetrain and I will be building a new set of heads with Ti intake and exh valves to put on the car soon.



I knew that was coming.... Vehicle One has always required an inspection as part of selling their warranties. Obviously, when you break the rules, it will only last so long before you have your hand slapped.

I had warned people about purchasing extended warranties from out of state dealers multiple times on here. We have had customers be denied claims because of that very reason and our rep had told us the internet dealers were going to be stopped.

You shouldn't use me as an example because my failure was my fault for heavily modding a car with a cam, headers, coil overs, sway bars, better brakes, Hoosiers etc and then expecting it to last multiple days on a road course.

Believe me, I do feel bad for those with stock cars out of warranty that have a failure. I work with my customers to find the most economical way to "prevent" or fix a failure on a daily basis. While I know the problem seems to be very wide spread from what you read on here, I have to go off my personal (and somewhat professional) experience that I've gathered in the real world. It's fairly compelling to me that in 7 years managing a dealership and literally thousands of repair orders on Corvettes, we've only seen 2 failures on stock LS7's that can be related to a valve issue.

TapOut

Hey Rich, thanks for chiming in....but in a later post in this same thread I mentioned exactly what you just stated. I said it was before the whole GM announcement and that at that time it was what you guys knew, and that there were only about 2 modified cars that popped. Anyway, the car has been great thanks to your team! And thanks to the warranty, I drive it without a care in the world when it comes to all this head drama!

tigertank

back to the age of the heads i kno i have to pay a inventory tax on anything stock i have on my shelves or inmy case on the ground so y wud GM want to pat a tax for 18 months on heads?

'06 Quicksilver Z06

I was unaware that it was a "misunderstanding" but I do appreciate the clarification.

When I read your prior post from back in 2011, it just didn't come accross as a misunderstanding, was all.

This, and what you have to say below about the warranty situation, was actually of some significance when I made my own decision:

Understood, and I certainly don't blame you for really really not wanting to do it again any time soon.

But Rich, if you tell me that these valves ended up in your heads by accident, well then I'll take you at your word for that.

Yeah, I hear ya, and it was one of those warnings which was influential in my own decision making process, as I also had a warranty and had no formal inspection.

It was actually after reading more than one warning in your prior posts, that I began to become uncomfortable with whether or not my warranty would cover me should the worst happen.

At that point, I ultimately cashed it in and went the same way that you had on the heads.

The thing here though, is that even guys who would now go about getting the formal inspection in order to get a good warranty, have now lost one of what was considered one of the stronger warranty companies, as an option.

Well, I'm glad that your dealership has not seen any more failures come in than that Rich.