[Z06] How Many Z06 Owners Are Running Solid Stainless Exhaust Valves?
11-14-2013, 01:04 AM
#821
Team Owner
I'm not clear why some members are worried about success rates that are deemed credible because of an arbitrary milage such as 50K. Surely we all can remember numerous stock failures with half this many miles.
My "FIXED WCCH HEADS" will have 20K miles within a few days and 10 full HARD track days as well. Certainly this already is more usage than many stock failures we have seen over the last several years.
DH
My "FIXED WCCH HEADS" will have 20K miles within a few days and 10 full HARD track days as well. Certainly this already is more usage than many stock failures we have seen over the last several years.
DH
11-14-2013, 01:50 AM
#822
Team Owner
Thread Starter
I'm not clear why some members are worried about success rates that are deemed credible because of an arbitrary milage such as 50K. Surely we all can remember numerous stock failures with half this many miles.
My "FIXED WCCH HEADS" will have 20K miles within a few days and 10 full HARD track days as well. Certainly this already is more usage than many stock failures we have seen over the last several years.
DH
My "FIXED WCCH HEADS" will have 20K miles within a few days and 10 full HARD track days as well. Certainly this already is more usage than many stock failures we have seen over the last several years.
DH
Were you to even get 87,001 miles out of your current setup, you'd hear; "Well he only got one more mile out of it than he did when it was stock."
There are some of us who will never give this method it's props. You would have to run up 300,000 miles before some of us would finally relent. And then they would point out; "Well, it's only one car. Show me 30 other cars which can do the same."
11-14-2013, 06:32 AM
#823
Ah, but you got 87,000 miles and 30 track days out of your first motor my friend.
Were you to even get 87,001 miles out of your current setup, you'd hear; "Well he only got one more mile out of it than he did when it was stock."
There are some of us who will never give this method it's props. You would have to run up 300,000 miles before some of us would finally relent. And then they would point out; "Well, it's only one car. Show me 30 other cars which can do the same."
Were you to even get 87,001 miles out of your current setup, you'd hear; "Well he only got one more mile out of it than he did when it was stock."
There are some of us who will never give this method it's props. You would have to run up 300,000 miles before some of us would finally relent. And then they would point out; "Well, it's only one car. Show me 30 other cars which can do the same."
11-14-2013, 07:54 AM
#824
Burning Brakes
Ah, but you got 87,000 miles and 30 track days out of your first motor my friend.
Were you to even get 87,001 miles out of your current setup, you'd hear; "Well he only got one more mile out of it than he did when it was stock."
There are some of us who will never give this method it's props. You would have to run up 300,000 miles before some of us would finally relent. And then they would point out; "Well, it's only one car. Show me 30 other cars which can do the same."
Were you to even get 87,001 miles out of your current setup, you'd hear; "Well he only got one more mile out of it than he did when it was stock."
There are some of us who will never give this method it's props. You would have to run up 300,000 miles before some of us would finally relent. And then they would point out; "Well, it's only one car. Show me 30 other cars which can do the same."
11-14-2013, 09:42 AM
#825
Safety Car
11-14-2013, 10:19 AM
#826
Melting Slicks
) which indicate at least to me, that stock heads can be pretty damn good...YET all you guys have no problem disregarding that data, go figure 
Thus IF you ever get a 'fixed' head to exceed even just Howie's first engine (which has not been deemed as very good by himself and all of you guys) why on earth would you complain if we guys were to disregard such a success on a 'fixed' head, you've already done that with stock heads
Now imagine if you were to get numerous examples of 'fixed' heads to exceed 100,000 miles trouble free, and at least one at 230,000 miles, and I were to say, yeah well that doesn't mean anything...you'd think I was nuts. Now you know what I think
Cheers, Paul.
11-14-2013, 10:51 AM
#827
Melting Slicks
Of course the irony here is that there are many examples other than jimman's that show stock heads trouble free for more than 100,000 miles and even your very own Howie with 87,000 miles and 40 track days (NOT 30 as Rickie seems to have 'discounted' it to ) which indicate at least to me, that stock heads can be pretty damn good...YET all you guys have no problem disregarding that data, go figure
Thus IF you ever get a 'fixed' head to exceed even just Howie's first engine (which has not been deemed as very good by himself and all of you guys) why on earth would you complain if we guys were to disregard such a success on a 'fixed' head, you've already done that with stock heads
Now imagine if you were to get numerous examples of 'fixed' heads to exceed 100,000 miles trouble free, and at least one at 230,000 miles, and I were to say, yeah well that doesn't mean anything...you'd think I was nuts. Now you know what I think
Cheers, Paul.
) which indicate at least to me, that stock heads can be pretty damn good...YET all you guys have no problem disregarding that data, go figure Thus IF you ever get a 'fixed' head to exceed even just Howie's first engine (which has not been deemed as very good by himself and all of you guys) why on earth would you complain if we guys were to disregard such a success on a 'fixed' head, you've already done that with stock heads
Now imagine if you were to get numerous examples of 'fixed' heads to exceed 100,000 miles trouble free, and at least one at 230,000 miles, and I were to say, yeah well that doesn't mean anything...you'd think I was nuts. Now you know what I think
Cheers, Paul.
I don't understand why some people who got huge miles of hard track use out of a stock setup think 20K miles of hard track use is indicative of success. But the engine that got those huge miles is an utter failure that GM should be ashamed of and all the parts needed to go.
This modification, not fix, has yet to be proven yet a VERY select few on this forum are stating that they are fixed with nothing to prove it. The proof being offered is this thread with 300 people on it. So lets analyze this proof and lack of failures since this modification has been done.
Thread created 9-26-12. Roughly 14 months ago.
- By 2-28-13 there were roughly 161 cars on the list
- By 3-28-13 there were roughly 200 cars on the list
- By 10-23-13 there were under 300 cars on the list
- 11-12-13 it was announced 300 cars.
139 cars out of the 300 on this list have done this modification in the last 8 months. Even if they were putting 3K miles a month on their cars they would be barely topping 24K miles. We know most don't even come close to that. Its probably more like 1K a month for most people at MOST.
At a realistic rate 161 cars on this list would barely be hitting 14K miles at this point. The other 139 cars 8K miles.
There are literally 10's of thousands that have accomplished that with 100% stock internals with a possible factory defect from GM's head supplier.
How anyone can come to any kind of conclusion that the above numbers equal success without a shred of evidence other than "It didn't blow up yet" is beyond me.
Also what a sales pitch. "Do this modification to address your heads and hopefully you are not one of the unlucky ones who proves to the rest of us that we should start inspecting again"
No thank you.
I am sure most of the people on this list of 300 do not agree with the above statement. If you do please chime in why.
Last edited by propain; 11-14-2013 at 11:04 AM.
11-14-2013, 11:00 AM
#828
Burning Brakes
I don't understand why some people who got huge miles of hard track use out of a stock setup think 20K miles of hard track use is indicative of success. But the engine that got those huge miles is an utter failure that GM should be ashamed of and all the parts needed to go.
This modification, not fix, has yet to be proven yet a VERY select few on this forum are stating that they are fixed with nothing to prove it. The proof being offered is this thread with 300 people on it. So lets analyze this proof and lack of failures since this modification has been done.
Thread created 9-26-12. Roughly 14 months ago.
139 cars out of the 300 on this list have done this modification in the last 8 months. Even if they were putting 3K miles a month on their cars they would be barely topping 24K miles. We know most don't even come close to that. Its probably more like 1K a month for most people at MOST.
At a realistic rate the other 161 cars on this list would barely be hitting 14K miles at this point.
There are literally 10's of thousands that have accomplished that with 100% stock internals with a possible factory defect from GM's head supplier.
How anyone can come to any kind of conclusion that the above numbers equal success without a shred of evidence other than "It didn't blow up yet" is beyond me.
Also what a sales pitch. "Do this modification to address your heads and hopefully you are not one of the unlucky ones who proves to the rest of us that we should start inspecting again"
No thank you.
I am sure most of the people on this list of 300 do not agree with the above statement. If you do please chime in why.
This modification, not fix, has yet to be proven yet a VERY select few on this forum are stating that they are fixed with nothing to prove it. The proof being offered is this thread with 300 people on it. So lets analyze this proof and lack of failures since this modification has been done.
Thread created 9-26-12. Roughly 14 months ago.
- By 2-28-13 there were roughly 161 cars on the list
- By 3-28-13 there were roughly 200 cars on the list
- By 10-23-13 there were under 300 cars on the list
- 11-12-13 it was announced 300 cars.
139 cars out of the 300 on this list have done this modification in the last 8 months. Even if they were putting 3K miles a month on their cars they would be barely topping 24K miles. We know most don't even come close to that. Its probably more like 1K a month for most people at MOST.
At a realistic rate the other 161 cars on this list would barely be hitting 14K miles at this point.
There are literally 10's of thousands that have accomplished that with 100% stock internals with a possible factory defect from GM's head supplier.
How anyone can come to any kind of conclusion that the above numbers equal success without a shred of evidence other than "It didn't blow up yet" is beyond me.
Also what a sales pitch. "Do this modification to address your heads and hopefully you are not one of the unlucky ones who proves to the rest of us that we should start inspecting again"
No thank you.
I am sure most of the people on this list of 300 do not agree with the above statement. If you do please chime in why.
11-14-2013, 11:10 AM
#829
Safety Car
There is little disagreement that some LS7s have had a failure of the factory 2 piece exhaust valve, mine included. The cause of this failure seems to be up for debate and is beyond my area of expertise.
I went with WCCH's heads and the stainless exhaust valve to eliminate the chance of a two piece valve failing from the unknown cause. Could this unknown cause also result in the stainless one piece valve failing? Maybe, but I think it is less likely given equal use and track abuse. My assumption that the one piece stainless valve is less likely to fail, or less likely to fail as soon, from the unknown "cause" was enough for me to justify the WCCH expense. I really don't care if the guides end up out of spec if my valve doesn't break for a reasonable period of use. (I would be ok with 100k miles). We will just have to wait and see. Guinea pig I guess.
I went with WCCH's heads and the stainless exhaust valve to eliminate the chance of a two piece valve failing from the unknown cause. Could this unknown cause also result in the stainless one piece valve failing? Maybe, but I think it is less likely given equal use and track abuse. My assumption that the one piece stainless valve is less likely to fail, or less likely to fail as soon, from the unknown "cause" was enough for me to justify the WCCH expense. I really don't care if the guides end up out of spec if my valve doesn't break for a reasonable period of use. (I would be ok with 100k miles). We will just have to wait and see. Guinea pig I guess.
11-14-2013, 11:26 AM
#830
Safety Car
I don't understand why some people who got huge miles of hard track use out of a stock setup think 20K miles of hard track use is indicative of success. But the engine that got those huge miles is an utter failure that GM should be ashamed of and all the parts needed to go.
This modification, not fix, has yet to be proven yet a VERY select few on this forum are stating that they are fixed with nothing to prove it. The proof being offered is this thread with 300 people on it. So lets analyze this proof and lack of failures since this modification has been done.
Thread created 9-26-12. Roughly 14 months ago.
139 cars out of the 300 on this list have done this modification in the last 8 months. Even if they were putting 3K miles a month on their cars they would be barely topping 24K miles. We know most don't even come close to that. Its probably more like 1K a month for most people at MOST.
At a realistic rate 161 cars on this list would barely be hitting 14K miles at this point. The other 139 cars 8K miles.
There are literally 10's of thousands that have accomplished that with 100% stock internals with a possible factory defect from GM's head supplier.
How anyone can come to any kind of conclusion that the above numbers equal success without a shred of evidence other than "It didn't blow up yet" is beyond me.
Also what a sales pitch. "Do this modification to address your heads and hopefully you are not one of the unlucky ones who proves to the rest of us that we should start inspecting again"
No thank you.
I am sure most of the people on this list of 300 do not agree with the above statement. If you do please chime in why.
This modification, not fix, has yet to be proven yet a VERY select few on this forum are stating that they are fixed with nothing to prove it. The proof being offered is this thread with 300 people on it. So lets analyze this proof and lack of failures since this modification has been done.
Thread created 9-26-12. Roughly 14 months ago.
- By 2-28-13 there were roughly 161 cars on the list
- By 3-28-13 there were roughly 200 cars on the list
- By 10-23-13 there were under 300 cars on the list
- 11-12-13 it was announced 300 cars.
139 cars out of the 300 on this list have done this modification in the last 8 months. Even if they were putting 3K miles a month on their cars they would be barely topping 24K miles. We know most don't even come close to that. Its probably more like 1K a month for most people at MOST.
At a realistic rate 161 cars on this list would barely be hitting 14K miles at this point. The other 139 cars 8K miles.
There are literally 10's of thousands that have accomplished that with 100% stock internals with a possible factory defect from GM's head supplier.
How anyone can come to any kind of conclusion that the above numbers equal success without a shred of evidence other than "It didn't blow up yet" is beyond me.
Also what a sales pitch. "Do this modification to address your heads and hopefully you are not one of the unlucky ones who proves to the rest of us that we should start inspecting again"
No thank you.
I am sure most of the people on this list of 300 do not agree with the above statement. If you do please chime in why.
11-14-2013, 11:42 AM
#831
Melting Slicks
There is little disagreement that some LS7s have had a failure of the factory 2 piece exhaust valve, mine included. The cause of this failure seems to be up for debate and is beyond my area of expertise.
I went with WCCH's heads and the stainless exhaust valve to eliminate the chance of a two piece valve failing from the unknown cause. Could this unknown cause also result in the stainless one piece valve failing? Maybe, but I think it is less likely given equal use and track abuse. My assumption that the one piece stainless valve is less likely to fail, or less likely to fail as soon, from the unknown "cause" was enough for me to justify the WCCH expense. I really don't care if the guides end up out of spec if my valve doesn't break for a reasonable period of use. (I would be ok with 100k miles). We will just have to wait and see. Guinea pig I guess.
I went with WCCH's heads and the stainless exhaust valve to eliminate the chance of a two piece valve failing from the unknown cause. Could this unknown cause also result in the stainless one piece valve failing? Maybe, but I think it is less likely given equal use and track abuse. My assumption that the one piece stainless valve is less likely to fail, or less likely to fail as soon, from the unknown "cause" was enough for me to justify the WCCH expense. I really don't care if the guides end up out of spec if my valve doesn't break for a reasonable period of use. (I would be ok with 100k miles). We will just have to wait and see. Guinea pig I guess.
Except you have this example:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-z...post1584068005
This is a SS valve failure with stock guides. In the presence of guide wear SS valves will not save you. Also the theory of the two piece design is also debatable. When a valve fails due to guide wear it almost always breaks off at the head. One piece of two piece.
Guinea pig is fine as long as you recognize that you are and take the proper maintenance steps during the trail phase of the study. You seem to have a good head on your shoulders and you have indicated that you will inspect as you go along. Its completely sensible to do so. This modification might turn out to be the right thing to do and net many worry free miles for future owners. Sadly in the stage we are at today its not time to pop the Champaign yet as others want to do prematurely. That to me is completely irresponsible and advice like that can lead to some very unfortunate owners who drank that Kool-Aid.
Good luck.
Last edited by propain; 11-14-2013 at 12:16 PM.
11-14-2013, 11:49 AM
#832
Melting Slicks
Propain a lot the numbers you listed were cars that were previously worked on and searched for on the forum. Some of those cars have been running around for years with modifications. This list is no near close to the numbers of LS7's that are modified. I know a mechanic that has done over a 100 cars in this area and that is one shop. Plus I have 3 friends with modified cylinder heads that never post on this forum or read it. Why not start your own thread to track high mileage LS7's that have never had a cylinder head problem? (80k and over to leave the garage/waxer queens out of the mix)
I can only go with the data I am provided. I would love to hear from all the owners on this list with an update on how many miles.
Maybe a real thread with people who actually post and update their status on this forum should be created. Not scrounged up to inflate the numbers. If you did that the 300 number would probably shrink to about 150.
Since we are speculating its possible that the owners who did this modification years ago have since blown up their LS7's have moved on. Do we have any way of knowing? Has each and every person on this list been verified, spoken to and updated their status? If not how can you possible use a list like this as proof of success?
We all have friends and we all know mechanics. In this instance is does nothing for this debate. This list is hardly solid data as it is. As you pointed out above many on this list are no longer even on this forum or were searched for and not verified. We don't even know if the modification they did is even still in the car. Who knows how their cars turned out. Adding even more unknown people with unknown variables is simply adding more mud to already muddy water.
Last edited by propain; 11-14-2013 at 11:52 AM.
11-14-2013, 12:00 PM
#833
Melting Slicks
Propain a lot the numbers you listed were cars that were previously worked on and searched for on the forum. Some of those cars have been running around for years with modifications. This list is no near close to the numbers of LS7's that are modified. I know a mechanic that has done over a 100 cars in this area and that is one shop. Plus I have 3 friends with modified cylinder heads that never post on this forum or read it. Why not start your own thread to track high mileage LS7's that have never had a cylinder head problem? (80k and over to leave the garage/waxer queens out of the mix)
jedblanks is on the list of 300. He has recently sold his Z06. We have no way of tracking that car now unless the new owner comes to this forum and we are able to tie them together. That member should be removed from the list as that car no longer applies to the study.
When a list like this is being used as a spearhead to prove success with a modification strict measures should be put into play. If you want to just collect a list for collection sake that is a different story.
Do you think Jed's car should remain on this list if its being used as a study car to show success with this modification?
11-14-2013, 12:15 PM
#834
Safety Car
To follow up with what I said above and this post;
jedblanks is on the list of 300. He has recently sold his Z06. We have no way of tracking that car now unless the new owner comes to this forum and we are able to tie them together. That member should be removed from the list as that car no longer applies to the study.
When a list like this is being used as a spearhead to prove success with a modification strict measures should be put into play. If you want to just collect a list for collection sake that is a different story.
Do you think Jed's car should remain on this list if its being used as a study car to show success with this modification?
jedblanks is on the list of 300. He has recently sold his Z06. We have no way of tracking that car now unless the new owner comes to this forum and we are able to tie them together. That member should be removed from the list as that car no longer applies to the study.
When a list like this is being used as a spearhead to prove success with a modification strict measures should be put into play. If you want to just collect a list for collection sake that is a different story.
Do you think Jed's car should remain on this list if its being used as a study car to show success with this modification?
11-14-2013, 12:23 PM
#835
Team Owner
Thread Starter
I think that part of what is going on here, is that different people have different thresholds for what they consider "effective".
A lot of that perspective is going to be influenced by, among other things, how the owner uses the car, how long he plans on keeping the car, etc.
If I look at how many miles I realistically put on my car over a given period of time of say, a year, and how I use it overall, then it's not as crucial for me to see 80k mile examples running with "Fixed" heads, as it would be for a person who uses his car as a daily driver and is liable to put that many miles on it during their ownership.
A lot of that perspective is going to be influenced by, among other things, how the owner uses the car, how long he plans on keeping the car, etc.
If I look at how many miles I realistically put on my car over a given period of time of say, a year, and how I use it overall, then it's not as crucial for me to see 80k mile examples running with "Fixed" heads, as it would be for a person who uses his car as a daily driver and is liable to put that many miles on it during their ownership.
Last edited by '06 Quicksilver Z06; 11-14-2013 at 07:31 PM.
11-14-2013, 12:24 PM
#836
Melting Slicks
I am not sure his exact reasons. But from what I understood even after addressing his heads with this modification or an offshoot of it he was still worried. He wasn't resting his head on his pillow every night thinking he was now fixed and out of the woods. I cant say I blame him. Regardless of his choices he is still a statistic being used on this list.
I am glad you agree he should be removed as it no longer adds to what this list is being used for.
Now it begs the question, how many others on the list have sold their cars or are unverified to still be running or using the modification?
11-14-2013, 01:18 PM
#837
Safety Car
I am not sure his exact reasons. But from what I understood even after addressing his heads with this modification or an offshoot of it he was still worried. He wasn't resting his head on his pillow every night thinking he was now fixed and out of the woods. I cant say I blame him. Regardless of his choices he is still a statistic being used on this list.
I am glad you agree he should be removed as it no longer adds to what this list is being used for.
Now it begs the question, how many others on the list have sold their cars or are unverified to still be running or using the modification?
I am glad you agree he should be removed as it no longer adds to what this list is being used for.
Now it begs the question, how many others on the list have sold their cars or are unverified to still be running or using the modification?
Back to my question earlier though, how many LS7's on this forum have over 80,000 miles on the cars with the stock heads and no internal engine modifications? Probably a very short list...
11-14-2013, 01:19 PM
#838
Melting Slicks
If I look at how many miles I realistically put on my car over a given period of time of say, a year, and how I use it overall, then it's not as crucial for me to see 80k mile examples running with "Fixed" heads, as it would be for a person who uses his car as a daily driver and is liable to put that many miles on it during their ownership.
Cheers, Paul.
11-14-2013, 01:23 PM
#839
Melting Slicks
11-14-2013, 01:26 PM
#840
Melting Slicks
No one is saying a 'fixed' head wont go over 80,000 miles, just that until they start to, you really can't say you've 'fixed' anything and thus an appropriately machined stock head has an infinitely better track record. And once you have the guide wear issue licked, there's still the issue of the additional wear and tear that a significantly heavier valve will have on spring, seats, etc.
Cheers, Paul.