[Z06] GM response to LS7 valve guide issue summary confirmed
08-31-2013, 12:14 PM
#1961
Le Mans Master
What bothers me most about this whole mess, is GM KNOWS there's a problem (and I'm sure they KNOW what the cause of the problem is), and while they "may" fix it under warranty, if you're out of warranty, then they could care less, even though the customer had nothing to due with the cause of the issue!
08-31-2013, 12:28 PM
#1962
Burning Brakes
Perhaps mental anguish should be part of the lawsuit. I know for myself this whole situation has taken a portion of the enjoyment out of owning a Z. My 11 Z motor was built 1 month after GM said the problem was "contained". I wish I could feel confident that this is the case. I guarantee you that I don't. A detailed explanation from GM explaining the "machining error in the valve guide" and why it only "affects a small, number of '08, 09 ’10 and ’11 Z06’s" would go a long way in restoring confidence. Mistakes can and will happen. What really matters in my mind is how we as individuals or in this case a large corporation handle the issue. GM is acting like a big child and trying to point the issue at paranoid consumers instead of owning up to the issue. At the very least GM should at no cost to the consumer inspect each LS7 that falls within the 08,09,10,11 window. They should also provide justification as to why they feel there was not an issue in 06, 07, and also later 11, 12, and 13 motors. I am still blown away that GM can say you may have a problem but if we inspect it and you don't you'll have to pay. WTH kinda customer service is that. That is downright CRIMINAL.
I guarantee there will be no C7 for me or for that matter another new GM vehicle until GM steps up and takes care of this issue in a manner that respects us "the customer". I have two other vehicles that are due to be replaced in the next year. They are both GM and will not be replaced with a new GM vehicle. I'm looking elsewhere.
Point anybody that you know of looking to buy a new vehicle to this thread. If a company won't properly stand behind their product and customers, why would anybody want to buy their products.
If GM starts losing some Malibu and Impala sales they might wake up.
I guarantee there will be no C7 for me or for that matter another new GM vehicle until GM steps up and takes care of this issue in a manner that respects us "the customer". I have two other vehicles that are due to be replaced in the next year. They are both GM and will not be replaced with a new GM vehicle. I'm looking elsewhere.
Point anybody that you know of looking to buy a new vehicle to this thread. If a company won't properly stand behind their product and customers, why would anybody want to buy their products.
If GM starts losing some Malibu and Impala sales they might wake up.
08-31-2013, 12:39 PM
#1963
At this point, because nobody knows the "root cause" of it, or if they do know, then they aren't saying, there appears to be no "one size fits all" management for this problem.
We're all shooting in the dark.
Yes, it is.
08-31-2013, 07:57 PM
#1964
Instructor
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As I posted elsewhere in this forum:
Regardless of the debate on the various causes and factors, if GM went on record and said the problem was fixed after MY 2011 - and if there are a significant number of documented similar related low-milage failures after they said it was fixed - it's class-action lawsuit time. Simple as that.
We are customers - it's not our job to re-engineer this car. I have a 2013 427 and will be watching here VERY closely. Since GM drew a line in the sand and said the problem was fixed after a certain date - it really starts at that point - that's the whole ballgame. All the prior and ongoing debate as to causes and factors is comparatively trivial (except to vendors selling upgrades). If it's not truly fixed as GM stated, it is then consumer fraud - hello FTC.
And any LS7 owner, regardless of failure incidence with their particular car, could be part of damages awarded due to diminished resale value associated with a reputation for an unreliable engine if GM is found to have mislead consumers about defects found in that engine.
There should be a sticky thread titled: "LS7 FAILURES AFTER GM's ANNOUNCED FIX DATE" It's either fixed or it's not - game, set, match.
Regardless of the debate on the various causes and factors, if GM went on record and said the problem was fixed after MY 2011 - and if there are a significant number of documented similar related low-milage failures after they said it was fixed - it's class-action lawsuit time. Simple as that.
We are customers - it's not our job to re-engineer this car. I have a 2013 427 and will be watching here VERY closely. Since GM drew a line in the sand and said the problem was fixed after a certain date - it really starts at that point - that's the whole ballgame. All the prior and ongoing debate as to causes and factors is comparatively trivial (except to vendors selling upgrades). If it's not truly fixed as GM stated, it is then consumer fraud - hello FTC.
And any LS7 owner, regardless of failure incidence with their particular car, could be part of damages awarded due to diminished resale value associated with a reputation for an unreliable engine if GM is found to have mislead consumers about defects found in that engine.
There should be a sticky thread titled: "LS7 FAILURES AFTER GM's ANNOUNCED FIX DATE" It's either fixed or it's not - game, set, match.
08-31-2013, 11:35 PM
#1965
Melting Slicks
Wear was ~ .009 @ 43K miles.
Last edited by 2k Cobra; 12-26-2013 at 04:27 PM.
09-01-2013, 09:17 PM
#1967
Burning Brakes
2006 model here; bad guides. Heads redone before any catastrophies.
I'm no lawyer, but it seems it would be criminal to knowingly market a flawed product for over seven model years, and then publicly lie about the range of models affected, and lie about it having been corrected.
No further new GM products for me either. Ever!
I forsee a quick return to bankruptcy for these clowns.
I'm no lawyer, but it seems it would be criminal to knowingly market a flawed product for over seven model years, and then publicly lie about the range of models affected, and lie about it having been corrected.
No further new GM products for me either. Ever!
I forsee a quick return to bankruptcy for these clowns.
09-02-2013, 08:05 PM
#1972
09-02-2013, 08:15 PM
#1973
Team Owner
and kudos for said (herculean) effort !
09-03-2013, 05:00 PM
#1976
Gents, I've made it about 50 pages through this post and read the last few pages as well. I'm having a hard time finding a recommended solution that's fairly standardized. I found 8 needle bearings and small fragments from the roller rocker end cap on my aft magnetic oil plug. The last owner had a head swap on the driver side after some noise. I pulled off both valve covers and there are none missing which leads me to believe they've been in there prior to the left head swap, 5k miles at a minimum. This means GM did a head swap, but didn't take the time to remove the old needle bearings from the oil pan. I called them and they said it's been past a year so the work is not warrantied. This seems pretty ****** since they didn't do the job correctly the first time around. Now I'm forced to lift the engine, pull that pan, inspect everything etc on my own dime.
Here is my planned course of action... please advise.
1. pull engine and inspect for damage from the bottom up.
2. check valve guide measurements
3. have the heads reworked if necessary
4. SS exhaust valves
5. bronze valve guides
6. roller rocker upgrade
7. Cam and headers
Anything I'm missing other than oil, gaskets, etc?
Thanks
Here is my planned course of action... please advise.
1. pull engine and inspect for damage from the bottom up.
2. check valve guide measurements
3. have the heads reworked if necessary
4. SS exhaust valves
5. bronze valve guides
6. roller rocker upgrade
7. Cam and headers
Anything I'm missing other than oil, gaskets, etc?
Thanks
09-03-2013, 07:16 PM
#1977
Gents, I've made it about 50 pages through this post and read the last few pages as well. I'm having a hard time finding a recommended solution that's fairly standardized. I found 8 needle bearings and small fragments from the roller rocker end cap on my aft magnetic oil plug. The last owner had a head swap on the driver side after some noise. I pulled off both valve covers and there are none missing which leads me to believe they've been in there prior to the left head swap, 5k miles at a minimum. [...]
As to the valve guide issue, while you're changing the rockers would be a great time to do the wiggle test (see http://forums.corvetteforum.com/1582871091-post151.html -- conventional wisdom is to divide the dial indicator reading by two to get reasonable approximation of actual guide clearance). If the guides are worn then be prepared to go ahead and pull the heads (plan in advance accordingly). If the guides are in good shape then I can see no reason to not simply put the new rockers on and button 'er up.
You can spend a lot more money on aftermarket parts for either issue if you so desire, including even if you find no anomalies, but there is no technical data indicating that it is of any benefit.
As some mentioned in the other sticky thread, I also think there is no real cause for alarm in finding the old needle bearings in the pan. If they haven't hurt anything by now they are unlikely to, I would think. I can understand any concern about the rest of the rockers since they seem to be in the suspect date range.
09-03-2013, 07:30 PM
#1978
Thanks, Mark200X, for the good info... I'll try to get my hands on a micrometer and see how bad they are after reading through that link you included. If I don't see issues there that will probably drastically change my course of action. I've been looking forward to a cam and headers install down the road, but go back and forth on that after everything I'm reading on here.
09-03-2013, 11:36 PM
#1979
Burning Brakes
But the FTC fraud would seem to be to:
1) acknowledge existence of the problem - which GM did for '08-'11 cars
2) claim (assure) consumers they had found and fixed the problem
3) then continue selling cars with the same problem ('12-'13 cars)
So if a good number of '12-'13 cars have the same problems (as we might document here), then GM is really vulnerable to a suit.
I know that many on this forum have focused on fixes for '08s etc, but if you're after a mobster, and you can't get 'em on theft, but you can on tax evasion, don't you put 'em away any way you can?
Last edited by VETTEMANN; 09-03-2013 at 11:38 PM.
09-05-2013, 09:56 AM
#1980
Drifting
I know I have stated this before, but my car is a 2006 with 56k miles and I had an exhaust valve drop that totaled my LS7. I have no warranty, car was bought used. I had not even made one payment on it before it grenaded. The car is still sitting on jack stands in my garage, so im making payments on a car since the end of last year that I cant even drive.