[Z06] Talked to Rich at WCCH today...
08-31-2012, 10:01 PM
#121
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I'm guessing he won't spend much time replying to you because your mind is already made up, and I doubt there is virtually any answer that will assuage your... tenacity... in arguing with a company that has exponentially more experience, knowledge and testing equipment to deal with this issue than you have.
Although you're certainly entitled to your theories as the rest of us are, I think it's a mistake to "call out" a company with the reputation that Katech has; notably given that you also believe they and GM corporate are "in on it" together to keep things hush hush.
Simply put, for a company representative to engage with you is a lose-lose proposition, and I personally given Katech_Jason major props for offering up as much as he has already in the forums. That doesn't mean there isn't more to the story, and that there might not be more than one way to skin the proverbial cat... hell, there might even be more than one issue we're all talking about depending on the details - but again, there are few people on these forums that can hold a candle to Katech's collective knowledge base, equipment and experience.
If you want an "answer," I think they would be on the short list of people to listen to. If that's not the answer you want to hear, then of course there are several other vendors you can work with also.
Although you're certainly entitled to your theories as the rest of us are, I think it's a mistake to "call out" a company with the reputation that Katech has; notably given that you also believe they and GM corporate are "in on it" together to keep things hush hush.
Simply put, for a company representative to engage with you is a lose-lose proposition, and I personally given Katech_Jason major props for offering up as much as he has already in the forums. That doesn't mean there isn't more to the story, and that there might not be more than one way to skin the proverbial cat... hell, there might even be more than one issue we're all talking about depending on the details - but again, there are few people on these forums that can hold a candle to Katech's collective knowledge base, equipment and experience.
If you want an "answer," I think they would be on the short list of people to listen to. If that's not the answer you want to hear, then of course there are several other vendors you can work with also.
08-31-2012, 10:03 PM
#122
Drifting
Manley 221435 Dual spring kit (cheap insurance) DLC is a coating/lube which is suppose to be better than the tumble polish.
I'm just not sold on the stock exhaust valves/beehive spring no matter what anyone says.
I'm just not sold on the stock exhaust valves/beehive spring no matter what anyone says.
Last edited by RWE 427; 08-31-2012 at 10:17 PM.
08-31-2012, 10:03 PM
#123
Racer
Does anybody know if the LSX454 is a direct install into the C6Z06?
When considering my alternatives, its more expensive than the headwork, but less expensive than the LS7 crate ($9.5 to $13.5) and they'll gimme a 2yr/50K warranty........
But then if I sell my 8K mile LS7 long block I could potentially end up with a net cost of only $5K....which is attractive, no?
How much can you get for a used LS7 long block?
When considering my alternatives, its more expensive than the headwork, but less expensive than the LS7 crate ($9.5 to $13.5) and they'll gimme a 2yr/50K warranty........
But then if I sell my 8K mile LS7 long block I could potentially end up with a net cost of only $5K....which is attractive, no?
How much can you get for a used LS7 long block?
08-31-2012, 10:07 PM
#124
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Does anybody know if the LSX454 is a direct install into the C6Z06?
When considering my alternatives, its more expensive than the headwork, but less expensive than the LS7 crate ($9.5 to $13.5) and they'll gimme a 2yr/50K warranty........
But then if I sell my 8K mile LS7 long block I could potentially end up with a net cost of only $5K....which is attractive, no?
How much can you get for a used LS7 long block?
When considering my alternatives, its more expensive than the headwork, but less expensive than the LS7 crate ($9.5 to $13.5) and they'll gimme a 2yr/50K warranty........
But then if I sell my 8K mile LS7 long block I could potentially end up with a net cost of only $5K....which is attractive, no?
How much can you get for a used LS7 long block?
08-31-2012, 10:11 PM
#125
Safety Car
Jason states exactly what they ask WCCH to do - and that's what he posted here on the forum as their preferred fix. Richard's solution is similar (bronze guides), but he also has his opinion and recommends using "tumbled" intake valves versus the more expensive moly coated valves is probably good enough - but not fail safe depending on your application. You just have to decide who you'd rather trust your engine to. But again, that's not what you want to hear.
As far as my interest, well... I'll have another Z soon enough - and I'd like to have a good idea on what to do when the warranty expires. So yeah, I still care.
09-01-2012, 06:12 AM
#129
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And they also specify what they want WCCH to do to those heads.
Jason states exactly what they ask WCCH to do - and that's what he posted here on the forum as their preferred fix. Richard's solution is similar (bronze guides), but he also has his opinion and recommends using "tumbled" intake valves versus the more expensive moly coated valves is probably good enough - but not fail safe depending on your application. You just have to decide who you'd rather trust your engine to. But again, that's not what you want to hear.
As far as my interest, well... I'll have another Z soon enough - and I'd like to have a good idea on what to do when the warranty expires. So yeah, I still care.
Jason states exactly what they ask WCCH to do - and that's what he posted here on the forum as their preferred fix. Richard's solution is similar (bronze guides), but he also has his opinion and recommends using "tumbled" intake valves versus the more expensive moly coated valves is probably good enough - but not fail safe depending on your application. You just have to decide who you'd rather trust your engine to. But again, that's not what you want to hear.
As far as my interest, well... I'll have another Z soon enough - and I'd like to have a good idea on what to do when the warranty expires. So yeah, I still care.
in bold. but you left out Richard tells ppl to use ss valves. because their seeing heating issues with the stock valves and worn guides. me to 6 sets right now...jason said their was a problem...well the only thing left to do is for gm to recall them and fix them..I love my z06 great car..But I'm not running an ls7...now I think ppl that are will be fine as long as they research the issue...same part brakes over and over you change them..putting the same parts in and thinking there will be a differnt outcome is insanity.
09-01-2012, 06:29 AM
#130
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Here is what you need to know right now to assess whether you are individually at risk. If you have excessive valvetrain noise or oil consumption you should have it looked at. If you are in warranty and your engine is not modified it will be covered. If you have an aftermarket cam it will not be covered. I'm not sure of what other aftermarket modifications dictate whether or not it will be covered, but we should know more about that soon. Further info is coming soon.
The proper fix if the vehicle is out of warranty or modified is bronze guides with Ti/Mo intake valves and OEM exhaust valves such as Katech has been doing all along. It was our experience in the C5-R and C6.R racing programs and the bronze guide/molybdenum coated intake valve which brought us to this conclusion. C5-R heads with 15,000 race miles showed virtually no measurable wear on the valve guide.
The proper fix if the vehicle is out of warranty or modified is bronze guides with Ti/Mo intake valves and OEM exhaust valves such as Katech has been doing all along. It was our experience in the C5-R and C6.R racing programs and the bronze guide/molybdenum coated intake valve which brought us to this conclusion. C5-R heads with 15,000 race miles showed virtually no measurable wear on the valve guide.
Last edited by chadyellowz06; 09-01-2012 at 06:52 AM.
09-01-2012, 07:52 AM
#131
Race Director
ahh yeah...you were right...you denied that there was even a problem at all untill a few months ago...make fun of me call me out....lol
...wonder why jason wont address me..I'm offering 2 sets of heads from bone stock cars that failed under 30k miles...so he can test...i already have
...wonder why jason wont address me..I'm offering 2 sets of heads from bone stock cars that failed under 30k miles...so he can test...i already have
never denied a problem , have been debating just how wide spread the problem may be.How many times Have I told you that, in how many threads? I lost count. I can't wait to see GM's response, I am sure whatever it is, you will disagree or not be satisfied, Your on this noble crusade to save us all from this "flawed motor". You've turned this into your full time job so you'll never let it go.
I mean you can't accept a solution recommended by one of the top shops in the country who has more knowledge of engines than anyone here practically , and certainly you. Your only arguement is to state they are in bed with GM just because they work together.
If anything, I bet Jason and Katech are the reason GM is going to actually come out with the information for us to begin with, vs this massive "cover up" you seem to think is going on. If Katech were wrong, why would they warranty their work? All the knowledge they have from years of experience racing, and building cars, and you've decided you know better. Sure they are not perfect, but I tell ya, between listening to them, or you... 90% of the people are going to listen to them.
Last edited by FrankTank; 09-01-2012 at 12:32 PM.
09-01-2012, 08:49 AM
#132
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09-01-2012, 12:47 PM
#133
Race Director
You can't even read basic English never denied a problem , have been debating just how wide spread the problem may be.
How many times Have I told you that, in how many threads? I lost count. I can't wait to see GM's response, I am sure whatever it is, you will disagree or not be satisfied, Your on this noble crusade to save us all from this "flawed motor". You've turned this into your full time job so you'll never let it go.
I mean you can't accept a solution recommended by one of the top shops in the country who has more knowledge of engines than anyone here practically , and certainly you. Your only arguement is to state they are in bed with GM just because they work together.
If anything, I bet Jason and Katech are the reason GM is going to actually come out with the information for us to begin with, vs this massive "cover up" you seem to think is going on. If Katech were wrong, why would they warranty their work? All the knowledge they have from years of experience racing, and building cars, and you've decided you know better. Sure they are not perfect, but I tell ya, between listening to them, or you... 90% of the people are going to listen to them.
never denied a problem , have been debating just how wide spread the problem may be.How many times Have I told you that, in how many threads? I lost count. I can't wait to see GM's response, I am sure whatever it is, you will disagree or not be satisfied, Your on this noble crusade to save us all from this "flawed motor". You've turned this into your full time job so you'll never let it go.
I mean you can't accept a solution recommended by one of the top shops in the country who has more knowledge of engines than anyone here practically , and certainly you. Your only arguement is to state they are in bed with GM just because they work together.
If anything, I bet Jason and Katech are the reason GM is going to actually come out with the information for us to begin with, vs this massive "cover up" you seem to think is going on. If Katech were wrong, why would they warranty their work? All the knowledge they have from years of experience racing, and building cars, and you've decided you know better. Sure they are not perfect, but I tell ya, between listening to them, or you... 90% of the people are going to listen to them.
09-01-2012, 02:10 PM
#134
Safety Car
in bold. but you left out Richard tells ppl to use ss valves. because their seeing heating issues with the stock valves and worn guides. me to 6 sets right now...jason said their was a problem...well the only thing left to do is for gm to recall them and fix them..I love my z06 great car..But I'm not running an ls7...now I think ppl that are will be fine as long as they research the issue...same part brakes over and over you change them..putting the same parts in and thinking there will be a differnt outcome is insanity.The heat issue you reference may or may not be something else entirely - or it might be resolved with proper guide tolerances. A heat issue is not necessarily a "valve" specific issue either. Again.... The fact that both Katech, WCCH and others are changing the guides is probably key. The SS versus OEM may not be important beyond personal preference in a typical instillaton.
I'll wait and see what GM says in the near future.
09-01-2012, 02:32 PM
#135
Le Mans Master
well gm should recall them...95% of the time there is a hole in the block when the valve head drops.I had one big enough to put my fist in...my wife was sliding in her own oil. oil all over the road car ect. z06 owners shouldn't have to do this to there stock z06's warranty or not.
This is a problem with the way you post. Your sentence above reads as if your experience was with a stock motor. Your engine was modified and it dropped a valve, blew up, and spit out oil. The safety issue is due to whoever (improperly) modified your engine. Period.
GM is not going to do a recall because a modified engine blows. No manufacturer ever has or ever will as far as I know. And not just in the auto industry. Recalls are based on stock parameters failing. You crack open that seal and start hot rodding on anything iPhone, Laptop Xbox and your warranty is void.
I think you need to quantify your scenario of failures to be more accurate so people know what really happened to your 3 blown motors.
09-01-2012, 04:52 PM
#136
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Chad
This is a problem with the way you post. Your sentence above reads as if your experience was with a stock motor. Your engine was modified and it dropped a valve, blew up, and spit out oil. The safety issue is due to whoever (improperly) modified your engine. Period.
GM is not going to do a recall because a modified engine blows. No manufacturer ever has or ever will as far as I know. And not just in the auto industry. Recalls are based on stock parameters failing. You crack open that seal and start hot rodding on anything iPhone, Laptop Xbox and your warranty is void.
I think you need to quantify your scenario of failures to be more accurate so people know what really happened to your 3 blown motors.
This is a problem with the way you post. Your sentence above reads as if your experience was with a stock motor. Your engine was modified and it dropped a valve, blew up, and spit out oil. The safety issue is due to whoever (improperly) modified your engine. Period.
GM is not going to do a recall because a modified engine blows. No manufacturer ever has or ever will as far as I know. And not just in the auto industry. Recalls are based on stock parameters failing. You crack open that seal and start hot rodding on anything iPhone, Laptop Xbox and your warranty is void.
I think you need to quantify your scenario of failures to be more accurate so people know what really happened to your 3 blown motors.
09-01-2012, 05:01 PM
#137
Le Mans Master
I have explained my blown motors until I am blue in the face....my intial motor is the one I am referencing....it was stock with a cai and headers only....it was covered under warranty and replaced by Stingray Chevy...the second motor was replaced before the car even came home from Stingray because they failed to flush out the oil system from the first motor that popped. When they started up the motor the main bearing failed. So yes I am referring to my original motor with 30k that failed with yes I will say it again to help you understand a STOCK motor and it was covered under WARRANTY!!!!!! Hope this clears things up for you
09-01-2012, 05:19 PM
#138
Safety Car
09-01-2012, 06:28 PM
#139
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Lets be realistic here, headers and a cai with a tune won't cause valves to drop. It sounds like gm replaced his "modded" engine because they agree. If the heads/ valve train were stock, then the failure resulted in something amiss from the factory. Probably incorrect valve guide specs as we have seen with many completely stock engines.
09-01-2012, 09:47 PM
#140
Melting Slicks
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St. Jude Donor '12
let's be even more realistic. the stock motors that have dropped a valve do the same thing as a modded one does. they window the block quite often when it happens. its the actual number that is hard to factually substantiate. people want exact numbers before they will be convinced there is a real problem or will agree that something should be done. the fact is the real numbers will never be known. i bet the ones that dont think its a big deal would change their tune if they lost a family member due to loss of control from a failure. a dropped valve from a stock motor or from a modded one could create such a situation. has it happened yet? can you prove it hasn't or couldn't? it all really boils down to money and where gm feels the risk is at. what is the cheapest route? admit a problem and pay millions or take their chances and see if someone dies. if they do, just roll the dice in court. chances are court will be cheaper for them. just something to think about and debate some more uselessly.
Last edited by 2000FRCZ19; 09-01-2012 at 10:04 PM.