[Z06] Joe Gibbs LS30 motor oil
05-26-2012, 10:39 PM
#1
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Joe Gibbs LS30 motor oil
Is anyone using this oil? I called joe Gibbs racing but missed their call back.
They claim higher zinc levels and better lubrication from their specifically designed 5w-30 synthetic oil made for the modified LS motors. Does anyone know what ppm of zinc are in their oil ?
The zinc in the Mobil 1 0w-40 is 1100ppm which is almost 30% greater than the GM recommended 5w-30.
They claim higher zinc levels and better lubrication from their specifically designed 5w-30 synthetic oil made for the modified LS motors. Does anyone know what ppm of zinc are in their oil ?
The zinc in the Mobil 1 0w-40 is 1100ppm which is almost 30% greater than the GM recommended 5w-30.
05-27-2012, 07:44 AM
#2
Le Mans Master
Higher zinc and phosphate levels are really only needed in older flat tappet(valve lifter) engines to help with wear to the cam lobe contact, and really not needed for newer roller tappet engines. In fact, the government now limits these components in newer oils, as is claimed to harm cat converters, when oil is blowing by piston rings. If oil is marketed for racing, the government tends to look away for now. For more information on this, check the C3 section for member "Billla's" flat tappet oil list.
05-27-2012, 06:10 PM
#4
Melting Slicks
Street Use
Check with them I think it is not used for street because of the cats. Like the guy said above the zinc does something over a long period of time.
05-27-2012, 06:22 PM
#5
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Right, higher levels of antiwear additives have long term bad effects on the converters.
I'm not running cats so I believe it was the right choice for me.. Or even better would be just to use an actual race oil with 1800ppm zinc, but i'm not really wanting to pay the premium and have to change the oil every 500-1000 miles.
I'm not running cats so I believe it was the right choice for me.. Or even better would be just to use an actual race oil with 1800ppm zinc, but i'm not really wanting to pay the premium and have to change the oil every 500-1000 miles.
05-27-2012, 08:42 PM
#6
Safety Car
Realistically, converters last a LONG time. Reducing one's lifespan by some minor amount because of 30% more zinc in an otherwise healthy, well-running engine? The blow by won't change, and what DOES make it through the converters probably doesn't have a linear relationship on cat lifespan (ie a 30% increase in zinc will not correlate to a 30% reduction in converter lifespan - it's likely a fraction of this).
I'd rather have a 30% increase in valuable anti-wear protection to hopefully keep a motor longer, knowing I'm either going to sell off the car before it's an issue or be replacing two converters (that I'll have to replace anyway) if I keep the car until I die. Doing an exhaust swap a few years early is a negligible cost, when we're all worried about valves, guides and bearing life - IMHO, naturally.
As for Global Warming and the environment...
Sound familiar? Yeah, this was 1974. I'm personally still waiting for the Ice Age:
IMHO, buy the 0w40 and don't worry about catalytic converters - and if your engine consumes enough oil that it's a problem, then the extra zinc probably is going to be wasted anyway.
I'd rather have a 30% increase in valuable anti-wear protection to hopefully keep a motor longer, knowing I'm either going to sell off the car before it's an issue or be replacing two converters (that I'll have to replace anyway) if I keep the car until I die. Doing an exhaust swap a few years early is a negligible cost, when we're all worried about valves, guides and bearing life - IMHO, naturally.
As for Global Warming and the environment...
In Africa, drought continues for the sixth consecutive year, adding terribly to the toll of famine victims. During 1972 record rains in parts of the U.S., Pakistan and Japan caused some of the worst flooding in centuries. In Canada's wheat belt, a particularly chilly and rainy spring has delayed planting and may well bring a disappointingly small harvest. Rainy Britain, on the other hand, has suffered from uncharacteristic dry spells the past few springs. A series of unusually cold winters has gripped the American Far West, while New England and northern Europe have...
IMHO, buy the 0w40 and don't worry about catalytic converters - and if your engine consumes enough oil that it's a problem, then the extra zinc probably is going to be wasted anyway.
Last edited by Random84; 05-27-2012 at 08:45 PM.
05-30-2012, 10:54 AM
#8
Former Vendor
This is a good thread. Very relevant info, actually.
What we have been experiencing is some abnormal cam lobe wear on cars using the Mobil 1. The new oil, is garbage from a performance standpoint. Stock cars? No problem.
I have had this discussion with our valvetrain engineers on more than one occasion, and with aftermarket higher lift cams with more aggressive cam profiles, added Zinc is very much a requirement. We are including a bottle of additive from Comp, to help prevent premature failure with lifters and camshafts.
We are working on a technical writeup that lays all of this out and why things have drastically changed in the oil industry in the last 12-24 months.
Louis
What we have been experiencing is some abnormal cam lobe wear on cars using the Mobil 1. The new oil, is garbage from a performance standpoint. Stock cars? No problem.
I have had this discussion with our valvetrain engineers on more than one occasion, and with aftermarket higher lift cams with more aggressive cam profiles, added Zinc is very much a requirement. We are including a bottle of additive from Comp, to help prevent premature failure with lifters and camshafts.
We are working on a technical writeup that lays all of this out and why things have drastically changed in the oil industry in the last 12-24 months.
Louis
05-30-2012, 01:03 PM
#11
Former Vendor
The Rotella has been used in the Supra community for a long time. I know the Cummins engines have a flat tappet, mechanical lifter in the light duty 6.7 diesel engines, and that is one of the oils of choice.
We are still doing our due diligence for you guys as to which oils have the right amount of additives that these high performance engines need, and like I said, Redline has all the additives we want, as well as Joe gibbs and the Small ZDDP bottle from Comp.
Louis
We are still doing our due diligence for you guys as to which oils have the right amount of additives that these high performance engines need, and like I said, Redline has all the additives we want, as well as Joe gibbs and the Small ZDDP bottle from Comp.
Louis
05-31-2012, 12:27 AM
#12
Team Owner
This is a good thread. Very relevant info, actually.
What we have been experiencing is some abnormal cam lobe wear on cars using the Mobil 1. The new oil, is garbage from a performance standpoint. Stock cars? No problem.
I have had this discussion with our valvetrain engineers on more than one occasion, and with aftermarket higher lift cams with more aggressive cam profiles, added Zinc is very much a requirement. We are including a bottle of additive from Comp, to help prevent premature failure with lifters and camshafts.
We are working on a technical writeup that lays all of this out and why things have drastically changed in the oil industry in the last 12-24 months.
Louis
What we have been experiencing is some abnormal cam lobe wear on cars using the Mobil 1. The new oil, is garbage from a performance standpoint. Stock cars? No problem.
I have had this discussion with our valvetrain engineers on more than one occasion, and with aftermarket higher lift cams with more aggressive cam profiles, added Zinc is very much a requirement. We are including a bottle of additive from Comp, to help prevent premature failure with lifters and camshafts.
We are working on a technical writeup that lays all of this out and why things have drastically changed in the oil industry in the last 12-24 months.
Louis
Here is my oil analysis if you have any thoughts
Well my 2nd motor now has 15K miles and 7 track days. This last sample was with a little more than 5K miles and 3 track days. I added 1/4 of a quart of oil in that time.
My motor continues to make the clackity-clack noise when cold at idle. Any increase of RPM and it goes away. When the engine is fully warmed up the noise is gone and it sounds like a normal LS7. I don't know what the noise is but apparently it is not causing any wear.
DH
05-31-2012, 12:18 PM
#13
Le Mans Master
Yes, flat tappets need a lot of ZDDP (zinc and phosphorous)
Other engines with direct valve actuation need more ZDDP than the SN levels provide,
No, LSx engines do not need a big dose of ZDDP
ZDDP levels in the 1000-1200 ppm range have been shown effective at reducing engine parts wear. In particular the cylinders and rings last longer, so blow by is reduced over much of the life of the engine.
Racing applications can and have used ZDDP levels as high as 1800 ppm.
Partially rollerized valve actuation engine architectures (hint LSx) can get by with ZDDP levels in the 800 ppm range for street uses.
As to the ZDDP level versus a cat that dies at 80-100K miles::
So the question comes down to: Do you want your engine to still be running healthily when the motor passes the government mandated life of the Cat, or do you want the Cat to be performing well while the engine is on the downhill slide?
Cats are cheaper than engines.
Other engines with direct valve actuation need more ZDDP than the SN levels provide,
No, LSx engines do not need a big dose of ZDDP
ZDDP levels in the 1000-1200 ppm range have been shown effective at reducing engine parts wear. In particular the cylinders and rings last longer, so blow by is reduced over much of the life of the engine.
Racing applications can and have used ZDDP levels as high as 1800 ppm.
Partially rollerized valve actuation engine architectures (hint LSx) can get by with ZDDP levels in the 800 ppm range for street uses.
As to the ZDDP level versus a cat that dies at 80-100K miles::
So the question comes down to: Do you want your engine to still be running healthily when the motor passes the government mandated life of the Cat, or do you want the Cat to be performing well while the engine is on the downhill slide?
Cats are cheaper than engines.
05-31-2012, 01:02 PM
#14
Melting Slicks
This is a good thread. Very relevant info, actually.
What we have been experiencing is some abnormal cam lobe wear on cars using the Mobil 1. The new oil, is garbage from a performance standpoint. Stock cars? No problem.
I have had this discussion with our valvetrain engineers on more than one occasion, and with aftermarket higher lift cams with more aggressive cam profiles, added Zinc is very much a requirement. We are including a bottle of additive from Comp, to help prevent premature failure with lifters and camshafts.
We are working on a technical writeup that lays all of this out and why things have drastically changed in the oil industry in the last 12-24 months.
Louis
What we have been experiencing is some abnormal cam lobe wear on cars using the Mobil 1. The new oil, is garbage from a performance standpoint. Stock cars? No problem.
I have had this discussion with our valvetrain engineers on more than one occasion, and with aftermarket higher lift cams with more aggressive cam profiles, added Zinc is very much a requirement. We are including a bottle of additive from Comp, to help prevent premature failure with lifters and camshafts.
We are working on a technical writeup that lays all of this out and why things have drastically changed in the oil industry in the last 12-24 months.
Louis
What about Mobil 1 racing oil? It definitely has more zinc and is supposed to be a true racing oil.
Please don't tell me it is crap since I just put it in the engine.
05-31-2012, 01:27 PM
#15
Team Owner
Realistically, converters last a LONG time. Reducing one's lifespan by some minor amount because of 30% more zinc in an otherwise healthy, well-running engine? The blow by won't change, and what DOES make it through the converters probably doesn't have a linear relationship on cat lifespan (ie a 30% increase in zinc will not correlate to a 30% reduction in converter lifespan - it's likely a fraction of this).
I'd rather have a 30% increase in valuable anti-wear protection to hopefully keep a motor longer, knowing I'm either going to sell off the car before it's an issue or be replacing two converters (that I'll have to replace anyway) if I keep the car until I die. Doing an exhaust swap a few years early is a negligible cost, when we're all worried about valves, guides and bearing life - IMHO, naturally.
I'd rather have a 30% increase in valuable anti-wear protection to hopefully keep a motor longer, knowing I'm either going to sell off the car before it's an issue or be replacing two converters (that I'll have to replace anyway) if I keep the car until I die. Doing an exhaust swap a few years early is a negligible cost, when we're all worried about valves, guides and bearing life - IMHO, naturally.
Well said, and I agree!
Look at it this way, a little more zinc protection in the engine keeps it running longer, so fewer natural resources are needed to manufacture more replacement parts for worn out engines. Therefore less energy is used by the factories, raw materials stay in the ground, etc, etc.
You can twist the "facts" to say anything you want......Don't think so? Just ask the EPA, they'll show you how it's done!!!
05-31-2012, 01:48 PM
#16
Supporting Vendor
Member Since: Nov 2005
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St. Jude Donor '08
05-31-2012, 05:02 PM
#17
Former Vendor
Higher zinc and phosphate levels are really only needed in older flat tappet(valve lifter) engines to help with wear to the cam lobe contact, and really not needed for newer roller tappet engines. In fact, the government now limits these components in newer oils, as is claimed to harm cat converters, when oil is blowing by piston rings. If oil is marketed for racing, the government tends to look away for now. For more information on this, check the C3 section for member "Billla's" flat tappet oil list.
Yes, flat tappets need a lot of ZDDP (zinc and phosphorous)
Other engines with direct valve actuation need more ZDDP than the SN levels provide,
No, LSx engines do not need a big dose of ZDDP
ZDDP levels in the 1000-1200 ppm range have been shown effective at reducing engine parts wear. In particular the cylinders and rings last longer, so blow by is reduced over much of the life of the engine.
Racing applications can and have used ZDDP levels as high as 1800 ppm.
Partially rollerized valve actuation engine architectures (hint LSx) can get by with ZDDP levels in the 800 ppm range for street uses.
As to the ZDDP level versus a cat that dies at 80-100K miles::
So the question comes down to: Do you want your engine to still be running healthily when the motor passes the government mandated life of the Cat, or do you want the Cat to be performing well while the engine is on the downhill slide?
Cats are cheaper than engines.
Other engines with direct valve actuation need more ZDDP than the SN levels provide,
No, LSx engines do not need a big dose of ZDDP
ZDDP levels in the 1000-1200 ppm range have been shown effective at reducing engine parts wear. In particular the cylinders and rings last longer, so blow by is reduced over much of the life of the engine.
Racing applications can and have used ZDDP levels as high as 1800 ppm.
Partially rollerized valve actuation engine architectures (hint LSx) can get by with ZDDP levels in the 800 ppm range for street uses.
As to the ZDDP level versus a cat that dies at 80-100K miles::
So the question comes down to: Do you want your engine to still be running healthily when the motor passes the government mandated life of the Cat, or do you want the Cat to be performing well while the engine is on the downhill slide?
Cats are cheaper than engines.
What we see, is a lack of ZDDP after examining the failed components, and accompanying oil samples.
Like I said, with stock cars, sure, the level of zinc isnt an issue, but with upgraded cams, more radical lobes, and 50-70% more spring pressure, we need the ZDDP.
We are also seeing turbo failures, which use a metal on metal bearing cartridge system. 5 years ago, no issue. less than 0% failure rate. currently, last 6 months, failure rate has quadrupled, and this isnt just vettes, it's in Subarus, Mitsubishis, supras, anything that has a journal bearing turbo with a high load being placed on it. Not ONCE has a failure occurred with a car using redline or gibbs, with these turbos. Coincidence? I think not.
Everett, I dont know what to tell you, LOL! Next oil change, I would highly recommend a better oil.
They guys at redline are working on a nice technical write up regarding these issues, we will post it as soon as we get it.
Louis
05-31-2012, 06:28 PM
#18
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Well, I just got off the phone with Joe Gibbs oil.
They were very informative. I first told them that I was running the M1 0w-40 and he agreed it was a much better choice than the GM recommended 5w-30 or any of their other oils. (race oil exempt) He told me that the zinc levels are much higher and just as important that the viscosity is much better. The other oils are mandated to have lower levels for fuel economy, catalytic converter, bla bla bla.
Now about their LS30 oil. It has 1300 ppm of zinc compared to the 1100 M1 0w40, the viscosity is even higher and the shear protection is much greater especially with higher oil temps, over 200 degrees.
Their oil is the recommended 5w-30 weight which was tested down to -20 degrees, He said the only way other oils can get as big of a split as the 0w-40 is to add more detergents. Which isn't as ideal for a high performing LS7. For example 15w-40 would need less detergents than the 0w-40. Since their oil has Less detergents and more anti shear additives it protects bearings, cam lobes, and lifters better. Also helping to prevent blow by. (Oil getting by the rings), Which keeps it out of the pvc system and finally going out the exhaust pipes !
I learned a ton! He was a Super nice guy.
So to cap...
Mobil 1 0w-40 is the best option from Mobil
Joe Gibbs is even better, especially in high temps and race conditions
Red Line- Like the Little Gigliotti said
...is real good stuff too!
Clark
They were very informative. I first told them that I was running the M1 0w-40 and he agreed it was a much better choice than the GM recommended 5w-30 or any of their other oils. (race oil exempt) He told me that the zinc levels are much higher and just as important that the viscosity is much better. The other oils are mandated to have lower levels for fuel economy, catalytic converter, bla bla bla.
Now about their LS30 oil. It has 1300 ppm of zinc compared to the 1100 M1 0w40, the viscosity is even higher and the shear protection is much greater especially with higher oil temps, over 200 degrees.
Their oil is the recommended 5w-30 weight which was tested down to -20 degrees, He said the only way other oils can get as big of a split as the 0w-40 is to add more detergents. Which isn't as ideal for a high performing LS7. For example 15w-40 would need less detergents than the 0w-40. Since their oil has Less detergents and more anti shear additives it protects bearings, cam lobes, and lifters better. Also helping to prevent blow by. (Oil getting by the rings), Which keeps it out of the pvc system and finally going out the exhaust pipes !
I learned a ton! He was a Super nice guy.
So to cap...
Mobil 1 0w-40 is the best option from Mobil
Joe Gibbs is even better, especially in high temps and race conditions
Red Line- Like the Little Gigliotti said
...is real good stuff too!Clark
Last edited by ClarksZ06; 05-31-2012 at 06:44 PM.
05-31-2012, 07:08 PM
#19
Drifting
Great thread! Very informative, but information a non-engine guy like myself can understand.
So if I'm correct, those of us with higher HP built engines would be better off with the M1 0-40w or Gibbs because of the added zinc?
So if I'm correct, those of us with higher HP built engines would be better off with the M1 0-40w or Gibbs because of the added zinc?