I received a Carbon Fiber Super Bee unit from Jim earlier this week, and I tell you what guys, my first observation was the size of the thing compared to the original unit. My second observation, and perhaps the most important one, was the quality of the unit.
I will be honest guys; I had my reservations regarding this new unit simply because in my line of work, I see many parts come and go. Some of those parts met expectations and others fell to the wayside.
I emailed Jim and I told him that I was going to install the unit, dyno it and test it in and out seeing what it was ALL about from my perspective. Jim pretty much told me that it was not necessary, he along with Katech tested the unit with great results and I simply said great…I need to see for my self and here it is.
After closing up shop last night, I went ahead and base-lined the car and after two back to back hot pulls: 576.4/532.6. Made sure that all temps and readings were the same for the Super Bee and bam, 596.8/540.3…average gains of 20.4hp and 7.7tq respectively following the same technique for consistency. I was shocked. Yes, I was!!!! I didn’t expect to see that big of a gain by swapping from one unit to the next. Being the greedy person that I am, out came the 93 octane and in came the E85. I changed the tune for the fuel/Super Bee and brought the car up to temps then dyno using the same technique and bam, after the pulls I was rewarded with: 610.8/553.2.
Driving impressions were also as impressive, the car felt crisper and responsive. I watched all readings with the HP Tuners. The IAT temps were pretty steady and dropped really fast once moving from standing still. It dropped so fast that no timing fluctuation was evident and, I did this WITHOUT the beehive onboard seeing how the unit would perform under crappy conditions.
Yes, the CF Super Bee unit will require tuning. However, tuning changes are pretty easy. I simply adjusted both low and high Hz MAF tables and the airflow running table to dial it in. Believe it or not, there were no power gains from timing adjustments on this car; the timing tables were previously tweaked out. However, a bone stock car WILL pick up additional ponies from timing adjustments.
Simply put, the system WORKS!!!
For those who are interested, I will be putting together a series of tuning packages using: HP Tuners for both 93 oct and E85, SCT tuners and very soon…HP Tuners “remote” tuning.
Very interesting. How much for a tuning solution with both 93 oct. and E85? Are there any other changes necessary to use E85 on an otherwise stock LS7? Injectors? Pump? Lines?
Very interesting. How much for a tuning solution with both 93 oct. and E85? Are there any other changes necessary to use E85 on an otherwise stock LS7? Injectors? Pump? Lines?
We run E85 exclusively on our Z06. It is tricky, as Carlos can tell you, to get the right injector sizing and most of all the compression ratio.
E85 needs 13:1, or at least 12.5:1 compression ratio to run properly. We have 13:1 and never run gasoline. Paid $2.34/gallon today to fill up with 105 Octane E85.
Tuning took us 3 months to figure out completely, and then the Super Bee came to life, mandating further tweaking. We are now at 650 HP+ with an emphasis on the plus. The new Nitto NT05R Drag Radials are still no match for 1/2 throttle roll-ons in 1st gear at 30 mph. Simply unbelievable power. To actually describe the power, would sound like blatant bragging, so I will refrain. Carlos understands.
We have some dynos of our setup on our site, but I do not want to hijack Carlos's thread.
We run E85 exclusively on our Z06. It is tricky, as Carlos can tell you, to get the right injector sizing and most of all the compression ratio.
E85 needs 13:1, or at least 12.5:1 compression ratio to run properly. We have 13:1 and never run gasoline. Paid $2.34/gallon today to fill up with 105 Octane E85.
Tuning took us 3 months to figure out completely, and then the Super Bee came to life, mandating further tweaking. We are now at 650 HP+ with an emphasis on the plus. The new Nitto NT05R Drag Radials are still no match for 1/2 throttle roll-ons in 1st gear at 30 mph. Simply unbelievable power. To actually describe the power, would sound like blatant bragging, so I will refrain. Carlos understands.
We have some dynos of our setup on our site, but I do not want to hijack Carlos's thread.
Very interesting. How much for a tuning solution with both 93 oct. and E85? Are there any other changes necessary to use E85 on an otherwise stock LS7? Injectors? Pump? Lines?
Mr Obzidian,
Please allow me to dive deeper into this entire tuning brouhaha:
You do not have to do anything to the fuel lines or fuel pump. All you need is bigger injectors and tuning. We swap for the 60lbs whenever an E85 conversion package comes our way.
As Jim stated, tuning wise, there are several tables needing to be adjusted to run the E85. Tuning is a little more involved when tuning a cammed car vs. a stock offering. As you know, a cammed Z requires great tweaking to properly balance power, torque and drivability. Adding E85 into the mix makes this tuning balancing act a little more complex but it’s a piece of cake under the right/experienced tuner.
I am a picky person; I spent three straight weekends late at night on the dyno and the streets tweaking for a few E85 combos. My current combo is very crisp, responsive and it runs very clean. Like Jim stated, the cars is different animal. Folks who get a chance to ride in my car tell me that my 4th gear feels like their second gear…
When I installed the CF Super Bee last weekend, I realized that my fueling values were pretty darn close. Why? Because I installed a set of 80lbs injectors anticipating future mods (13.25 comp ratio… milling the stock heads). But we noticed something very interesting, even with the bigger injectors, the LT trims at idle were very lean indicating to me that this new Super Bee was gulping more air.
On the very first past on the dyno, the sucker made 604.4…it went lean on the stab but then it picked up fuel; I knew right then we had something especial. The five other guys who watched us tune on the dyno were simply shaking their heads. The 60’s were swapped back to measure apple to apples gains and discovered that we needed to add about 25% more fuel to the MAF Hz tables to compensate for the extra air. This DOES NOT mean you need to run 60lbs for the Super Bee, it means that you need to ADD fuel. I had 60’s and 80’s on hand from my last summer FAST intake experimentation so we continued to use them.
Once the dust settled, 610.8 on E85 was our final reward.
After changing the MAF setting for the 93 octane, the car made 596.7 on two pulls. These were solid NO BS, NO games pulls. We started playing timing just to see if more power were to be had and the best we saw was 599 and 598 on the 93oct. We backed it down; no need to run on the edge for 5 to 7 more ponies albeit across the band when the car is perfectly happy at 596 on 22* on top with 12.3 A/F across…that’s my friend is super solid and safe!
THESE ARE RWHP!!!
Nevertheless, this entire tuning experimentations are available to the public via our Email HP Tuners package, SCT tuners hand held device or our up and coming “Vette-mote” remote tuning package.
How are you finding the quality of E85 over there in texas? I have seen a few K20 Turbo cars being tuned for E85 and its what we saw was that from tank to tank, the E85 wasn't as consistent as standard pump gas. One tank full the car would make the indicated power and crispiness that it was tuned for and with another tank full, the tune would have to be adjusted, indicating that the oct. levels of that tank full wasn't like the first.
Great news, as I read (incorrectly) that to run E85, it would necessitate more than just an injector swap.
How are you finding the quality of E85 over there in texas? I have seen a few K20 Turbo cars being tuned for E85 and its what we saw was that from tank to tank, the E85 wasn't as consistent as standard pump gas. One tank full the car would make the indicated power and crispiness that it was tuned for and with another tank full, the tune would have to be adjusted, indicating that the oct. levels of that tank full wasn't like the first.
Great news, as I read (incorrectly) that to run E85, it would necessitate more than just an injector swap.
Mr. Obzidian,
I have not seen any issues with the quality of E85 over here. All tests we’ve done have shown consistent anticipated results, even after switching from station to station.
During winter months, many pump station will sell a winter blend of E85 for winter driving. In other words, the pump may say E85 when it is actually E70. This is done to help with cold starts but personally, I haven’t suffered any cold (winter climate) start ups with my car, even at temps between 35* and 40*. The neat think about the GM tuning parameters, you can actually go in and command additional spark, airflow, throttle blade opening by % and so on which helps solve any possible “cold-winter” start up issues.
As far some results inconsistencies, every car is different. Keep in mind that just because one car likes the spark or fuel settings with E85 a certain way, it does not mean that next vehicle will like it even if it’s the same model and with similar mods.
Vehicles built from let’s say 1995 and newer, do not need to alter any fueling lines, pumps or what-have-you to run E85.
I have not seen any issues with the quality of E85 over here. All tests we’ve done have shown consistent anticipated results, even after switching from station to station.
During winter months, many pump station will sell a winter blend of E85 for winter driving. In other words, the pump may say E85 when it is actually E70. This is done to help with cold starts but personally, I haven’t suffered any cold (winter climate) start ups with my car, even at temps between 35* and 40*. The neat think about the GM tuning parameters, you can actually go in and command additional spark, airflow, throttle blade opening by % and so on which helps solve any possible “cold-winter” start up issues.
As far some results inconsistencies, every car is different. Keep in mind that just because one car likes the spark or fuel settings with E85 a certain way, it does not mean that next vehicle will like it even if it’s the same model and with similar mods.
Vehicles built from let’s say 1995 and newer, do not need to alter any fueling lines, pumps or what-have-you to run E85.
Thanks,
Carlos
I have driven from MI to IN, IL, and back to WI with no problems finding an E85 station. It is pretty hard to find in some parts of the country.
Corvette Store
Super Bee vs. Killer Bee...Chassis Dyno results
I didn’t expect to see that big of a gain by swapping from one unit to the next. Being the greedy person that I am, out came the 93 octane and in came the E85. I changed the tune for the fuel/Super Bee and brought the car up to temps then dyno using the same technique and bam, after the pulls I was rewarded with: 610.8/553.2.
