Is Amsoil Dexos1 approved???
07-02-2012, 02:07 PM
#41
People just don't understand that 'Magnusson' law is crap for most consumers, since it doesn't shield you from having to prove the car manufacturer wrong, and then recover costs based on that law. Nobody is going to approve a warrantay claim just because you told them the oil manufacturer claims they meet their spec. Simple common sense. THEY have to prove it. And if they do that successfully, then that law allows to collect expenses. But the final nail in the coffin is most judges and jurors don't know crap about engines, so guess who they're going to favor? The odds are totally against you in those cases. Not a good choice for the risk averse, or the risk taker without substantial savings, and willing to risk them on winning a lawsuit.
Last edited by JCtx; 07-02-2012 at 02:19 PM.
07-02-2012, 03:01 PM
#42
Melting Slicks
What that means is you had test data from the oil company showing it met Dexos1, then GM would have to show more proof than that it didnt meet spec.
Bottom line, it would be much harder for GM to prove the oil was out of spec IF your oil company actually has test data that it does.
07-02-2012, 03:05 PM
#43
Melting Slicks
BTW, I found on another site that GM 2011+ owners manuals are saying this...
Use only engine oil that is approved to the dexos specification or an equivalent
engine oil of the appropriate viscosity grade. Engine oils approved to the dexos specification will show the dexos symbol on the container. Failure to use the recommended engine oil or strong>equivalent can result in engine damage not covered by the vehicle warranty.
If you are unsure whether the oil is approved to the dexos specification, ask your service provider.
Use of Substitute Engine Oils if dexos is unavailable: In the event that dexos‐approved engine oil is
not available at an oil change or for maintaining proper oil level, you may use substitute engine oil
displaying the API Starburst symbol and of SAE 5W-30 viscosity grade.
Use only engine oil that is approved to the dexos specification or an equivalent
engine oil of the appropriate viscosity grade. Engine oils approved to the dexos specification will show the dexos symbol on the container. Failure to use the recommended engine oil or strong>equivalent can result in engine damage not covered by the vehicle warranty.
If you are unsure whether the oil is approved to the dexos specification, ask your service provider.
Use of Substitute Engine Oils if dexos is unavailable: In the event that dexos‐approved engine oil is
not available at an oil change or for maintaining proper oil level, you may use substitute engine oil
displaying the API Starburst symbol and of SAE 5W-30 viscosity grade.
07-02-2012, 04:15 PM
#44
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I'd like to back up a step or two and ask a couple of related questions.
Most of us on this forum own pre-dexos cars. I understand that using the oil spec'd in our owner's manual will still be perfectly fine to continue using, but I also assume that companies like Mobil will quickly, if they haven't already, stop the older spec and only produce the dexos rated oil. (in the 5W-30 we use) That means we will be forced to use dexos approved if we want Mobil 1 5W-30. I'm also aware the dexos is forward compatible, so it won't cause problems for older cars.
So my first question is: Exactly what advantage will we see by using dexos approved in place of the previous spec'd oil? If it's better, then by how much and in what areas?
The second question is: If the degradation is at a slower rate, meaning longer time (not mileage) intervals between changes, have the newer manuals been changed to reflect a longer period than the current minimum of 1 year? And won't this affect older cars who switch to dexos approved oil too?
These questions are not warranty related, so disregard that aspect.
Most of us on this forum own pre-dexos cars. I understand that using the oil spec'd in our owner's manual will still be perfectly fine to continue using, but I also assume that companies like Mobil will quickly, if they haven't already, stop the older spec and only produce the dexos rated oil. (in the 5W-30 we use) That means we will be forced to use dexos approved if we want Mobil 1 5W-30. I'm also aware the dexos is forward compatible, so it won't cause problems for older cars.
So my first question is: Exactly what advantage will we see by using dexos approved in place of the previous spec'd oil? If it's better, then by how much and in what areas?
The second question is: If the degradation is at a slower rate, meaning longer time (not mileage) intervals between changes, have the newer manuals been changed to reflect a longer period than the current minimum of 1 year? And won't this affect older cars who switch to dexos approved oil too?
These questions are not warranty related, so disregard that aspect.
07-02-2012, 04:28 PM
#45
By the way, since Dexos1 has very good oils, it's just not worth using anything else IMO. BUT if that spec didn't include good synthetic oils, I would use one. However, what I'd NEVER do is get a tune (or other engine mods) during warranty, since it's detectable with the appropriate equipment (some might say no, but it is), and probably 99 out of 100 juries won't side with the owner who tampered with an ECU. It's all about risk tolerance... once you understand you'd have to fight in court any warranty denial. By the way, I'm no lawyer, but I'm pretty sure GM wouldn't take any oil company's word their product meets their spec. It'd have to be tested by an INDEPENDENT lab, and that costs $$$. Then you better be sure it'd pass 
.
.
Last edited by JCtx; 07-02-2012 at 04:31 PM.
07-02-2012, 05:36 PM
#46
Melting Slicks
Thats fine, I am using Pennzoil Ultra because it meets GM 4718M, which is what my owners manual specifies, I can get it rather inexpensively, and people are getting excellent oil analysis results from it.
07-02-2012, 06:20 PM
#47
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Keep it simple. Go to Walmart (if you can tolerate it) and grab a 5qt jug of Mobil 1 or Mobil 1 Extended Performance. If you buy it by the jug, it comes to $5.79qt, which is untouchable.
I spoke to a GM engineer a few years ago and he said they test the hell out of Mobil 1 and it performs "flawlessly". Those were his words.
There are many good oils on the market. You could also use Pennzoil Ultra, a fantastic oil and one of the best on the market right now.
Amsoil is good, but I don't see what you're really gaining.
I spoke to a GM engineer a few years ago and he said they test the hell out of Mobil 1 and it performs "flawlessly". Those were his words.
There are many good oils on the market. You could also use Pennzoil Ultra, a fantastic oil and one of the best on the market right now.
Amsoil is good, but I don't see what you're really gaining.
07-02-2012, 06:21 PM
#48
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You could also use Mobil 1 0w-30. This oil is unique and contains more PAO than the regular Mobil 1 oils. It's high temperature capability is on par with the Extended Performance line.
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lub...l_Economy.aspx
According to ExxonMobil, Mobil 1 0W-30 Advanced Fuel Economy is of the following quality level:
General Motors GM 4718M
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lub...l_Economy.aspx
According to ExxonMobil, Mobil 1 0W-30 Advanced Fuel Economy is of the following quality level:
General Motors GM 4718M
07-02-2012, 07:49 PM
#49
Melting Slicks
Pennzoil Ultra is $5.40 a qt by the jug at Walmart and from oil analysis feedback on the oil guy website, it is as good as any product from Mobil.
07-02-2012, 08:24 PM
#50
That's what Ferrari uses. It's an excellent oil. Any of the Group III synthetics is all we need if not leaving the oil a gazillion miles, which most of us Vette owners never do anyway. Boutique oils like Amsoil like to argue their Group IV oils are better, but IMO, only for owners using their oil for over 10K miles. In my case, where I change oil at 5K miles due to time limitation, I don't even need Pennzoil Ultra or Mobil1 Extended Performance, so will use Mobil1. Finally, I think a super simple engine like the LS3, with a ton less moving parts than a DOHC V8 with VVT that revs much higher, is significantly easier on the oil, negating the need for a group IV IMO. I always want the best for my vehicles, but don't like to throw money away.
07-03-2012, 09:12 PM
#51
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I'd like to back up a step or two and ask a couple of related questions.
Most of us on this forum own pre-dexos cars. I understand that using the oil spec'd in our owner's manual will still be perfectly fine to continue using, but I also assume that companies like Mobil will quickly, if they haven't already, stop the older spec and only produce the dexos rated oil. (in the 5W-30 we use) That means we will be forced to use dexos approved if we want Mobil 1 5W-30. I'm also aware the dexos is forward compatible, so it won't cause problems for older cars.
So my first question is: Exactly what advantage will we see by using dexos approved in place of the previous spec'd oil? If it's better, then by how much and in what areas?
The second question is: If the degradation is at a slower rate, meaning longer time (not mileage) intervals between changes, have the newer manuals been changed to reflect a longer period than the current minimum of 1 year? And won't this affect older cars who switch to dexos approved oil too?
These questions are not warranty related, so disregard that aspect.
Most of us on this forum own pre-dexos cars. I understand that using the oil spec'd in our owner's manual will still be perfectly fine to continue using, but I also assume that companies like Mobil will quickly, if they haven't already, stop the older spec and only produce the dexos rated oil. (in the 5W-30 we use) That means we will be forced to use dexos approved if we want Mobil 1 5W-30. I'm also aware the dexos is forward compatible, so it won't cause problems for older cars.
So my first question is: Exactly what advantage will we see by using dexos approved in place of the previous spec'd oil? If it's better, then by how much and in what areas?
The second question is: If the degradation is at a slower rate, meaning longer time (not mileage) intervals between changes, have the newer manuals been changed to reflect a longer period than the current minimum of 1 year? And won't this affect older cars who switch to dexos approved oil too?
These questions are not warranty related, so disregard that aspect.
The reply was that the current formulation of "ordinary" Mobil1 5W-30 already met the Dexos1 spec, they had not needed to reformulate it to meet Dexos 1. They were simply using up the old bottles, and when the bottles showing Dexos1 would appear, the oil inside would be the same stuff.
I'd guess that Mobil1 from 20 years ago would not meet Dexos1, but I don't know when the improvements came on line.
Hope that helps a little.
07-04-2012, 12:34 AM
#52
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After the Dexos spec had been out for some months, and the Mobil1 bottles in the store still did not state the stuff was Dexos1 approved, I phoned Mobil to ask when they would have a Dexos1 version of Mobil1.
The reply was that the current formulation of "ordinary" Mobil1 5W-30 already met the Dexos1 spec, they had not needed to reformulate it to meet Dexos 1. They were simply using up the old bottles, and when the bottles showing Dexos1 would appear, the oil inside would be the same stuff.
I'd guess that Mobil1 from 20 years ago would not meet Dexos1, but I don't know when the improvements came on line.
Hope that helps a little.
The reply was that the current formulation of "ordinary" Mobil1 5W-30 already met the Dexos1 spec, they had not needed to reformulate it to meet Dexos 1. They were simply using up the old bottles, and when the bottles showing Dexos1 would appear, the oil inside would be the same stuff.
I'd guess that Mobil1 from 20 years ago would not meet Dexos1, but I don't know when the improvements came on line.
Hope that helps a little.
The bad part now, if that's true, is it really muddied the waters and brings the political/profit question back to the forefront. Why create a new standard if you already met the specs, unless there was another motive?
07-04-2012, 04:58 AM
#53
Team Owner
Pretty good info there, assuming the person you talked to was truthful and not just trying to pacify your concerns.
The bad part now, if that's true, is it really muddied the waters and brings the political/profit question back to the forefront. Why create a new standard if you already met the specs, unless there was another motive?
The bad part now, if that's true, is it really muddied the waters and brings the political/profit question back to the forefront. Why create a new standard if you already met the specs, unless there was another motive?
GM could have just dropped the GM6094M spec and then required all their vehicles to meet the GM4718m spec, but that would have been an overkill. Enter the dexos1 spec which can be met with an oil that is a sythethic blend.
Why require that every car they build to use an oil that isn't needed. That's why they came up with the dexos spec, that can be met with a synthetic blend, instead of requiring an expensive full synthetic oil that is an overkill. GM is thinking about their customers. By spec'ing a synthetic blend instead of a full synthetic oil, they are looking out for their customers pocket books everytime their customers get an oil change, whether at a GM dealership, a quick change lube or in their driveway.
It's a fact that a synthetic blend oil is cheaper to purchase(and make) then a full synthetic oil.
07-04-2012, 08:22 PM
#54
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Pretty good info there, assuming the person you talked to was truthful and not just trying to pacify your concerns.
The bad part now, if that's true, is it really muddied the waters and brings the political/profit question back to the forefront. Why create a new standard if you already met the specs, unless there was another motive?
The bad part now, if that's true, is it really muddied the waters and brings the political/profit question back to the forefront. Why create a new standard if you already met the specs, unless there was another motive?
Somewhere I read that Dexos1 is supposed to be stricter than the old 4718M and associated standards; the reason for going to Dexos1 (aside from licensing revenue
) was to allow for longer oil change intervals and longer engine life. Not sure how to verify that.Also, just because Mobil1 met the Dexos spec without change, would not necessarily mean that other oils meeting 4718M would also meet Dexos1.
So Dexos1 might be a real improvement, or just a re-stating of the same standards, or a step backwards. The 4718M/Dexos1 specs should be publicly available, someone who understands lubrication science should be able to compare them. Who will take the job?
07-04-2012, 10:23 PM
#55
Race Director
Once a year oil changes, and I want full synthetic. Hence Amsoil Signature. Just keeps me happy. I do not buy into all this licensing propaganda created by GM.
07-05-2012, 01:51 AM
#56
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I requested more detailed specifications from the Dexos website, regarding the tolerances for the additives the specification requires.
I also asked if there was a USA source for the "globally available" Dexos2 Mobil 1 ESP 0W-40 that's specified as the recommended fill for a Porsche, because it's not listed on Mobil's North American website. The ESP is an oil formulated to meet European standards, yet the Mobil 1 site also claims regular 0W-40 is the European formula.
I personally prefer Johnson's Baby Oil for the smell and hotel availability, but it's much harder to wash off than Wesson's.
07-05-2012, 04:31 AM
#57
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After the Dexos spec had been out for some months, and the Mobil1 bottles in the store still did not state the stuff was Dexos1 approved, I phoned Mobil to ask when they would have a Dexos1 version of Mobil1.
The reply was that the current formulation of "ordinary" Mobil1 5W-30 already met the Dexos1 spec, they had not needed to reformulate it to meet Dexos 1. They were simply using up the old bottles, and when the bottles showing Dexos1 would appear, the oil inside would be the same stuff.
I'd guess that Mobil1 from 20 years ago would not meet Dexos1, but I don't know when the improvements came on line.
Hope that helps a little.
The reply was that the current formulation of "ordinary" Mobil1 5W-30 already met the Dexos1 spec, they had not needed to reformulate it to meet Dexos 1. They were simply using up the old bottles, and when the bottles showing Dexos1 would appear, the oil inside would be the same stuff.
I'd guess that Mobil1 from 20 years ago would not meet Dexos1, but I don't know when the improvements came on line.
Hope that helps a little.
Nuff said. AMSOIL ASL. I am happy with my choice.
07-05-2012, 08:25 AM
#59
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FYI: My 2012 manual says the following:
"NOTICE: Failure to use the recommended engine oil or
equivalent can result in engine damage not covered by the vehicle warranty. Check with your dealer or service provider on whether
the oil is approved to the dexos 1 specifications".
"NOTICE: Failure to use the recommended engine oil or
equivalent can result in engine damage not covered by the vehicle warranty. Check with your dealer or service provider on whether
the oil is approved to the dexos 1 specifications".
Glad to see the change but it's still wrong...GM does not require to use of dexos1™ oil to maintain the warranty and that's the main reason I say the FTC will rule in GM's favor. I'm actually going to do you a favor here and show you how you can recommend your products to your customers and assure them their warranty will stay intact. Go to these websites:
http://www.chevrolet.com/assets/pdf/...ner_Manual.pdf
http://www.valvoline.com/promos/dexos.jsp
If you go to page 10-20 of the first link (the 2011 owner's manual), the first sentence of the Notice in the middle says:
"Use only engine oil that is approved to the dexos specification or an equivalent engine oil of the appropriate viscosity grade."
The qualifier "or an equivalent engine oil" gives GM the wiggle room to say they don't require the use of dexos1™ approved oil. However, the onus is now on the owner to determine whether the oil he/she chooses is equivalent. That's where the second bolded portion I did on your post I quoted above comes in...Amsoil states those particular oils you listed meet the dexos1™ spec. The link to the Valvoline website says the same thing...by making that statement, Amsoil meets the requirements of an "equivalent engine oil" and the warranty stays intact. At that point, the Magnuson-Moss act requires GM to prove the oil doesn't meet the dexos1™ spec. I really don't see what all the fuss is...if your oil meets the specs, then market it as such and you and the owner will have no worries with respect to the warranty.
Here's where I have a problem with all the oil companies who refuse to "pay" GM. The actual cost per quart is pretty low, I don't see where GM is charging an outrageous fee. If they don't want to pay for the trademark name, that's their choice...just don't complain when you don't get to use it. I probably wouldn't pay either but instead of complaining, I would make sure consumers knew they have the choice of using an "equivalent" oil as stated in the owner's manual with Magnuson-Moss to back them as well as a guarantee from my company. Good luck in the oil wars!
http://www.chevrolet.com/assets/pdf/...ner_Manual.pdf
http://www.valvoline.com/promos/dexos.jsp
If you go to page 10-20 of the first link (the 2011 owner's manual), the first sentence of the Notice in the middle says:
"Use only engine oil that is approved to the dexos specification or an equivalent engine oil of the appropriate viscosity grade."
The qualifier "or an equivalent engine oil" gives GM the wiggle room to say they don't require the use of dexos1™ approved oil. However, the onus is now on the owner to determine whether the oil he/she chooses is equivalent. That's where the second bolded portion I did on your post I quoted above comes in...Amsoil states those particular oils you listed meet the dexos1™ spec. The link to the Valvoline website says the same thing...by making that statement, Amsoil meets the requirements of an "equivalent engine oil" and the warranty stays intact. At that point, the Magnuson-Moss act requires GM to prove the oil doesn't meet the dexos1™ spec. I really don't see what all the fuss is...if your oil meets the specs, then market it as such and you and the owner will have no worries with respect to the warranty.
Here's where I have a problem with all the oil companies who refuse to "pay" GM. The actual cost per quart is pretty low, I don't see where GM is charging an outrageous fee. If they don't want to pay for the trademark name, that's their choice...just don't complain when you don't get to use it. I probably wouldn't pay either but instead of complaining, I would make sure consumers knew they have the choice of using an "equivalent" oil as stated in the owner's manual with Magnuson-Moss to back them as well as a guarantee from my company. Good luck in the oil wars!
07-05-2012, 08:29 AM
#60
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