C5diffSwapMonster--and you thought I was done?
03-16-2012, 06:40 AM
#1
Tech Contributor
Thread Starter
C5diffSwapMonster--and you thought I was done?
As always, before getting into this write-up, I would like to ask each person reading to know a big part of my motivation is the St. Jude’s fundraising effort on this board. I don’t think its much of a reach to understand why this cause is so important but unless you suffer such a painful loss as a result of a childhood destroyed by various illnesses I don’t think you could see it from the point of view of it happening to your world. The loss of a child changes you forever and I will never be able to relay the pain associated with it. Take a moment and send 20 bucks to this charity. We have the means to send robots to mars so I believe we can beat cancer, sudden infant death, and form new medications.
I have a dream.....that one day it will say St Jude's Donor under everyone's name.
---------------Make a difference TODAY------------------
How to make your donation:
(Option #1) This page is designated to the Corvette Forum fundraiser, and we get credit for all donations made here:
https://waystohelp.stjude.org/sjVPor...8&programId=51 Select "Donate to Event"
NOTE: - There is no place to add your user name when using the St. Jude Donor page, so, please post in this thread that this is the option used, and PM “pewter99” or "cor08vette," so that we can add your '12 St. Jude Donor tag. This will also assist with record keeping.
(Option #2) Personal checks, cashier checks, or money orders, made out to: St. Jude Children's Hospital and mailed to co-organizer "pewter99":
Robert Briggs
P.O. Box 17083
Clearwater Fl 33762
Please put your forum name on the memo line of the check.
(Option-3) Paypal account:
corvettes4stjude@gmail.com
** Look for the "GIFT" option as fee's will not be charged ** Please add your user name with payment.**
Prologue………
OK, as usual this thread was started at 2am Mountain time or 4am Eastern when I usually think of these things so please excuse the failure to catch mistakes right out the gate. As a kid I used to stay up all night and remanufacture radio controlled cars into radio controlled boats stealing my little brothers 2 dollar boat mom got him from the 5 and dime because he mastered the cry-until-you-get-it act which never worked for me. I usually got the ‘act-your-age’ speech which is still applicable for me since you can see my skateboard here…….I’m 45:
Here are the details of the final chapter in a no-weld, no-drill, diff swap kit designed by me and engineered by AR design in Denver CO. Here is a sneek peek (peak-mountain-get it?) Ok sorry. I will update the thread with pictures of the final install and some parts not shown here. Its the middle of the night and I am not going out to the garage to take more pics even though I love all of you.
What is it about?
This applies only to 2005 cars which came with a weak differential compared to all other years.
I know this wont apply to many people but there are other threads floating around with people who gave so much to helping others out like Sparo. The issues of height, strength, and vibration are all solved here so I thought it would be cool if there was a single location for the info. I have to call this solution a colaboration of all of you who put time, effort, money, and brain power to engineer this. Yes we do have the best forum around. Kumbaya
My bracket solves all the problems we have seen. First its based on the C3 transmission mount which is....well...a transmission mount. Its a fully isolated mount with a hollowed rubber section that houses two bolts that saves you from massive vibration. Its been used on all corvettes from 1963 to 1982. I'd say the design was a good one. Its what JoeG's mount is based on and his is 10 sec track tested BG TIME. It also has the height issue solved.
JoeG's successful diff mount based on the C3 corvette trans mount:
I sold off my C5 diff with 4.10's and the same C3 trans mount to get my car back to stock but later wanted to have a C5 diff for the new owner when I sell. I inherited a mount from another member and thought my motor came unbalanced due to vibration. The mount I have been running had a slight vibration like a solid motor mount because it was just a flat piece of rubber against a metal bracket.
My friend Andrew who owns AR Design in Denver built a new bracket system based on a cardboard model I brought him (which he insulted) that anyone can use. He made it out of billet aluminum and it accepts the C3 corvette's trans mount which bolts to it and this to the C5 diff. The bracket allows you to replace the C3 trans mount which is 15 bucks if you need to and the entire system is able to transplant the C5 diff into a C6 with no welding on the diff and no drilling. Two plates go over and under the cradle opening with a square one on top so the mount has a flat surface and a triangular one that goes under the cradle to keep it from moving in any direction. Since the distance is about 1/2 inch for the bolt head to trans mount, its solid. You dont even need to drill any holes in the cradle. C'mon say it........wow. When I went to pick it up, I was my loud boisterous self coming through the door until I saw it on his desk. It was jewelry to me. Andrew said, "Finally there is something to silence you." It was way over the top. You have to see how it solves issues I didnt think of.
Ah that's better
I have the new mount on my car now and its smooth sailing. I ran the old C3 mount like JoeG's for 4-5 years without issue and with big boost (800hp). Joe's bracket is a C3 mount welded to a plate of metal and its very effective. Its short but its the height of the bracket plus the thickness of the metal. The bracket described here is actually attaching to the C3 bracket decreasing the height by the thickness of the top metal of the C3 bracket and the thickness of the metal its welded to in Joe's case.
I got another C5 Z06 diff on Ebay for 525 and fully built it. Its solid and I would never go 2006 diff. The 2006 unit is going to be well over $1000 plus the cost to build it and the trans housing is more trouble than welding. Now without welding, this is a no brainer. The weldless kit is from AR design.
Since I already had the plate welded on my cradle, I only have pics of the adapter and C3 trans mount but will update this soon.
Adapter and C3 trans mount:
How it fits together:
Here you can see, the aluminum suface that touches the C5 diff is actually lower than the C3 trans mount decreasing the height of the driveline. You can decrease it further by placing huge washers between the C3 trans mount and the aluminum bracket.
I powder coated the bracket black cause I'm Spinmonster and I can:
I also powdercoated my brake calipers white w/wet black brackets since I was covered in black powder:
Dammit I'm good. I thought the white/black on a white car was tasteful. Yes? No? Let me feel the love.
Assembled bottom;
Assembled top:
I came up with a rough idea of how I wanted to do this and made a cardboard model where the C3 mount which I had bought slid into the assembly but the details of exactly how you make it strong was left to the master. The assembly is the shortest version mount I've seen to date and if you look closely you will note that the plane of the top of the C3 mount is now OVER the top of the metal that bolts to the diff....thats short. I knew Andrew would solve the height problem once he thought about it and he did; by finding negative space outside the distance from the adapter to the cradle. The C3 mount actually tucks up into the bottom of the diff itself! In fact, this isnt the lowest it can be. You can actually lower it more....look at the 3rd picture above: by putting in huge washers under the C3 mount between it and the bracket, it lowers the entire driveline even more.
It has no vibration and the same mount was always in my car but it welded the metal to the C3 mount making it imposible to change without welding. This just slides apart and uses two bolts to hold it together.
The final assebly puts the diff at exactly the same height as the stock C6 diff. I know this because I had seen a C5 diff with C6 side covers mounted on a car and I measured its distance to the colling fins on the bottom of the C5 diff which didnt touch when the car was on the ground although it did when jacked up. It normal operation it doesnt touch the spring as shown by my unmolested magic marker markings on the bottom of my C5 diff.
Joe G track tested the mount, and I had it on the street for 4-5 years. It works and works well. mine was even wheel hop tested years ago...LOL.
If ever you put your stock diff back in the car, the billet adapter can be used to tow 747 or 777 aircraft. Its strong.
So there you have it....I can do this swap in a few hours with no welding. Bring it.
I have a dream.....that one day it will say St Jude's Donor under everyone's name.
---------------Make a difference TODAY------------------
How to make your donation:
(Option #1) This page is designated to the Corvette Forum fundraiser, and we get credit for all donations made here:
https://waystohelp.stjude.org/sjVPor...8&programId=51 Select "Donate to Event"
NOTE: - There is no place to add your user name when using the St. Jude Donor page, so, please post in this thread that this is the option used, and PM “pewter99” or "cor08vette," so that we can add your '12 St. Jude Donor tag. This will also assist with record keeping.
(Option #2) Personal checks, cashier checks, or money orders, made out to: St. Jude Children's Hospital and mailed to co-organizer "pewter99":
Robert Briggs
P.O. Box 17083
Clearwater Fl 33762
Please put your forum name on the memo line of the check.
(Option-3) Paypal account:
corvettes4stjude@gmail.com
** Look for the "GIFT" option as fee's will not be charged ** Please add your user name with payment.**
Prologue………
OK, as usual this thread was started at 2am Mountain time or 4am Eastern when I usually think of these things so please excuse the failure to catch mistakes right out the gate. As a kid I used to stay up all night and remanufacture radio controlled cars into radio controlled boats stealing my little brothers 2 dollar boat mom got him from the 5 and dime because he mastered the cry-until-you-get-it act which never worked for me. I usually got the ‘act-your-age’ speech which is still applicable for me since you can see my skateboard here…….I’m 45:
Here are the details of the final chapter in a no-weld, no-drill, diff swap kit designed by me and engineered by AR design in Denver CO. Here is a sneek peek (peak-mountain-get it?) Ok sorry. I will update the thread with pictures of the final install and some parts not shown here. Its the middle of the night and I am not going out to the garage to take more pics even though I love all of you.
What is it about?
This applies only to 2005 cars which came with a weak differential compared to all other years.
I know this wont apply to many people but there are other threads floating around with people who gave so much to helping others out like Sparo. The issues of height, strength, and vibration are all solved here so I thought it would be cool if there was a single location for the info. I have to call this solution a colaboration of all of you who put time, effort, money, and brain power to engineer this. Yes we do have the best forum around. Kumbaya
My bracket solves all the problems we have seen. First its based on the C3 transmission mount which is....well...a transmission mount. Its a fully isolated mount with a hollowed rubber section that houses two bolts that saves you from massive vibration. Its been used on all corvettes from 1963 to 1982. I'd say the design was a good one. Its what JoeG's mount is based on and his is 10 sec track tested BG TIME. It also has the height issue solved.
JoeG's successful diff mount based on the C3 corvette trans mount:
I sold off my C5 diff with 4.10's and the same C3 trans mount to get my car back to stock but later wanted to have a C5 diff for the new owner when I sell. I inherited a mount from another member and thought my motor came unbalanced due to vibration. The mount I have been running had a slight vibration like a solid motor mount because it was just a flat piece of rubber against a metal bracket.
My friend Andrew who owns AR Design in Denver built a new bracket system based on a cardboard model I brought him (which he insulted) that anyone can use. He made it out of billet aluminum and it accepts the C3 corvette's trans mount which bolts to it and this to the C5 diff. The bracket allows you to replace the C3 trans mount which is 15 bucks if you need to and the entire system is able to transplant the C5 diff into a C6 with no welding on the diff and no drilling. Two plates go over and under the cradle opening with a square one on top so the mount has a flat surface and a triangular one that goes under the cradle to keep it from moving in any direction. Since the distance is about 1/2 inch for the bolt head to trans mount, its solid. You dont even need to drill any holes in the cradle. C'mon say it........wow. When I went to pick it up, I was my loud boisterous self coming through the door until I saw it on his desk. It was jewelry to me. Andrew said, "Finally there is something to silence you." It was way over the top. You have to see how it solves issues I didnt think of.
Ah that's better
I have the new mount on my car now and its smooth sailing. I ran the old C3 mount like JoeG's for 4-5 years without issue and with big boost (800hp). Joe's bracket is a C3 mount welded to a plate of metal and its very effective. Its short but its the height of the bracket plus the thickness of the metal. The bracket described here is actually attaching to the C3 bracket decreasing the height by the thickness of the top metal of the C3 bracket and the thickness of the metal its welded to in Joe's case.
I got another C5 Z06 diff on Ebay for 525 and fully built it. Its solid and I would never go 2006 diff. The 2006 unit is going to be well over $1000 plus the cost to build it and the trans housing is more trouble than welding. Now without welding, this is a no brainer. The weldless kit is from AR design.
Since I already had the plate welded on my cradle, I only have pics of the adapter and C3 trans mount but will update this soon.
Adapter and C3 trans mount:
How it fits together:
Here you can see, the aluminum suface that touches the C5 diff is actually lower than the C3 trans mount decreasing the height of the driveline. You can decrease it further by placing huge washers between the C3 trans mount and the aluminum bracket.
I powder coated the bracket black cause I'm Spinmonster and I can:
I also powdercoated my brake calipers white w/wet black brackets since I was covered in black powder:
Dammit I'm good. I thought the white/black on a white car was tasteful. Yes? No? Let me feel the love.
Assembled bottom;
Assembled top:
I came up with a rough idea of how I wanted to do this and made a cardboard model where the C3 mount which I had bought slid into the assembly but the details of exactly how you make it strong was left to the master. The assembly is the shortest version mount I've seen to date and if you look closely you will note that the plane of the top of the C3 mount is now OVER the top of the metal that bolts to the diff....thats short. I knew Andrew would solve the height problem once he thought about it and he did; by finding negative space outside the distance from the adapter to the cradle. The C3 mount actually tucks up into the bottom of the diff itself! In fact, this isnt the lowest it can be. You can actually lower it more....look at the 3rd picture above: by putting in huge washers under the C3 mount between it and the bracket, it lowers the entire driveline even more.
It has no vibration and the same mount was always in my car but it welded the metal to the C3 mount making it imposible to change without welding. This just slides apart and uses two bolts to hold it together.
The final assebly puts the diff at exactly the same height as the stock C6 diff. I know this because I had seen a C5 diff with C6 side covers mounted on a car and I measured its distance to the colling fins on the bottom of the C5 diff which didnt touch when the car was on the ground although it did when jacked up. It normal operation it doesnt touch the spring as shown by my unmolested magic marker markings on the bottom of my C5 diff.
Joe G track tested the mount, and I had it on the street for 4-5 years. It works and works well. mine was even wheel hop tested years ago...LOL.
If ever you put your stock diff back in the car, the billet adapter can be used to tow 747 or 777 aircraft. Its strong.
So there you have it....I can do this swap in a few hours with no welding. Bring it.
Last edited by SpinMonster; 10-16-2022 at 09:01 AM.
03-16-2012, 07:39 AM
#2
Tech Contributor
Well well...great to see another "monster" thread!
Thanks for posting, and I hope it's NOT your swan song.
I had to shave the fins on the bottom of my diff to clear the spring. Does your shorter mount cure this problem, or do you have to shave the fins too?
I believe I have certainly field tested the c5 diff in a c6 mount pictured above. 3 years (almost to the day), 27,392 miles and 167 passes. The picture above of my mount was taken last Friday.
It's a good mount.
Here's a stress test last month...I blew third as you can hear (breaking the blocker ring). That is a common failure, and when it breaks, you cannot select third at all without jamming it like no tomorrow and it'll grind every time.
I decided that the weather was too good -500 da in the daytime, we never get that in S. Fla...so I went back for another try for a record run and jammed my way through a broken transmission to the pass in my sig.
If it'll hold all the runs I've put on this mount, including allowing two 1.44 60 foots in 4 minutes...it's a good mount. Mod with confidence.
Thanks for posting, and I hope it's NOT your swan song.I had to shave the fins on the bottom of my diff to clear the spring. Does your shorter mount cure this problem, or do you have to shave the fins too?
I believe I have certainly field tested the c5 diff in a c6 mount pictured above. 3 years (almost to the day), 27,392 miles and 167 passes. The picture above of my mount was taken last Friday.
It's a good mount.
Here's a stress test last month...I blew third as you can hear (breaking the blocker ring). That is a common failure, and when it breaks, you cannot select third at all without jamming it like no tomorrow and it'll grind every time.
I decided that the weather was too good -500 da in the daytime, we never get that in S. Fla...so I went back for another try for a record run and jammed my way through a broken transmission to the pass in my sig.
If it'll hold all the runs I've put on this mount, including allowing two 1.44 60 foots in 4 minutes...it's a good mount. Mod with confidence.
03-16-2012, 07:54 AM
#3
Tech Contributor
Thread Starter
Chuck COW built a C5 diff with C6 side covers and it touched if the car was jacked up but not on the ground. My fins dont touch in use so it doesnt need to be ground off.
Mine has been in use for quite some time too with big power.
The C3 mount you have looks new. Its not warped and its not hard (vibration). They are cheap enough to swap.
I like that the diff can rock slightly like the C5 does is use. The C6 diff lost that shock absorber.
I think the people who dont like the C5 swap are because they have no vested interest in doing it. Cartek ran their car to the 9's with it and that was all I needed to see.
Mine has been in use for quite some time too with big power.
The C3 mount you have looks new. Its not warped and its not hard (vibration). They are cheap enough to swap.
I like that the diff can rock slightly like the C5 does is use. The C6 diff lost that shock absorber.
I think the people who dont like the C5 swap are because they have no vested interest in doing it. Cartek ran their car to the 9's with it and that was all I needed to see.
03-16-2012, 08:03 AM
#4
Tech Contributor
I agree that it seems the parts live longer when they have some give, my buddy went to solid mounts for his diff and his engine in his c5 and he broke parts left and right after that, and had nasty vibrations.
The link where we get credit above is broken Spin, can you fix it? I want to donate.
The link where we get credit above is broken Spin, can you fix it? I want to donate.
03-16-2012, 09:20 AM
#6
Tech Contributor
Zip and others offer the 06+ rear trans cover kits, there's a good conversion thread if anyone's interested.
All the 05 guys who did the conversion would have the spare rear cover so anyone posting in that thread would be a great contact!
IMHO, the driver for this swap is the price of the 06+ diff vs the price for an c5 diff. I happened to pick up an 06 for a great price so I now have a spare in case I break my c5 rear.
Further IMHO, I the 06 rear sure looks stronger than the c5...I posted pics of both in another thread. But the c5 rear is pretty tried and true, seems to break less. I wonder if Spin is correct that the ability to rock like the c5 has eases the load? The c6 factory mounts do allow some rock it appears though with their rubber mounts.
03-16-2012, 12:05 PM
#8
Tech Contributor
The newer 06+ c6 diffs are certainly stronger looking than the c5's...see below. My 05 rear lasted 301 runs, we'll see how long this c5 lasts.
C6 (2006+)
C5 (I have a brace on mine but it didn't prevent me from bending my output shaft when I broke my 2005 rear)
03-16-2012, 02:54 PM
#10
Instructor
I have a c5z diff that I've been watching take up space on the the floor because I wasn't quite sure how I was going to handle the mounting...
So I'm definitely interested in this setup..
So I'm definitely interested in this setup..
03-18-2012, 08:59 PM
#14
Melting Slicks
Member Since: Mar 2007
Location: Santa Barbara CA
Posts: 2,391
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I think he meant the C6 Z diffs were much stronger. That's what I have swapped into my '08. If you have a standard '06+ diff, you're probably better off just having it built or finding a Z06 diff. I found out the hard way that the standard C6 27-spline main shaft is the fuse in the driveline -- it broke before my original stock '08 diff did.
03-19-2012, 03:32 PM
#15
Instructor
I just bought a C5 Z06 diff a few weeks ago...
I have an 05 MN6.. is it a direct fit with the C5 Z06 diff and the new mount?
I cant wait!!!
Your contribution to this forum is unparalleled IMO...
I have an 05 MN6.. is it a direct fit with the C5 Z06 diff and the new mount?
I cant wait!!!
Your contribution to this forum is unparalleled IMO...
03-22-2012, 02:59 PM
#17
Tech Contributor
03-22-2012, 03:12 PM
#18
Le Mans Master
03-22-2012, 04:52 PM
#19
Tech Contributor
