1st oil change questioni
08-31-2011, 05:04 PM
#21
Burning Brakes
The engineer I talked to at Blackstone Labs recommended the first change at 500 miles to remove assembly dirt and grit. He indicated it is the most important oil change you will make and well worth the $35 or $40. Their tests show that contrary to what some believe there is unwanted contaminants in every new engine, even ones from Wixom.
After that first change he said to then go with the oil life indicator if that's what you believe in.
He also stated that for people who drive only 2 or 3 thousand miles per year, fully warm up the engine when they do drive it and store the car in a dry garage it is not necessary to change the oil every year. These people can go 2 years between changes as their tests show no additive deterioration in modern oils. Yes, he knows what the manual and GM says.
After that first change he said to then go with the oil life indicator if that's what you believe in.
He also stated that for people who drive only 2 or 3 thousand miles per year, fully warm up the engine when they do drive it and store the car in a dry garage it is not necessary to change the oil every year. These people can go 2 years between changes as their tests show no additive deterioration in modern oils. Yes, he knows what the manual and GM says.
08-31-2011, 05:14 PM
#22
Pro
This is a perfect example of how the technology of the monitor proves itself. You get about 83 miles for each percent shown on the DIC when driven hard.
i.e. 4500 miles and 54% used.
I'm currently at 6676 miles since the last change and the DIC reads 60%. i.e. 171 miles per DIC percent. That's double the miles you get.
Even though I had two trips to the drags, I also had a 5881 mile road trip included, where the majority of the miles were at a leisurely 1500-1600 RPM.
Just like engine revolutions per mile driven produce MPG, the revolutions also are the primary key to determine oil life.
In either case, the distance the car traveled has no bearing on the amount of fuel or oil life consumed.
i.e. 4500 miles and 54% used.
I'm currently at 6676 miles since the last change and the DIC reads 60%. i.e. 171 miles per DIC percent. That's double the miles you get.
Even though I had two trips to the drags, I also had a 5881 mile road trip included, where the majority of the miles were at a leisurely 1500-1600 RPM.
Just like engine revolutions per mile driven produce MPG, the revolutions also are the primary key to determine oil life.
In either case, the distance the car traveled has no bearing on the amount of fuel or oil life consumed.
08-31-2011, 08:27 PM
#23
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1st Oil Change Question
First oil change at 268 miles: replaced the oil filter part #PF48 with the UPF-48R, same Mobil 1 and replaced stock drain plug with a magnetic one.
Second oil change at 1,000 miles: used the same stuff and I can report that the magnetic oil drain plug had minimal metal dust. Dust only, no shavings or metallic particles, even when looking through a magnifying glass.
From now on I will change the oil depending on driving conditions as I feel pertinent. Very, very happy with this engine.
Have had one of each of the following: LS1, LS6, LS2 and this LS3. When comparing the LS1 and this LS3, there is a huge difference in metallic residue after the first few oil changes; the LS1 had so much more. That said, it ran like a bat out of hell.
Live and let live...
Second oil change at 1,000 miles: used the same stuff and I can report that the magnetic oil drain plug had minimal metal dust. Dust only, no shavings or metallic particles, even when looking through a magnifying glass.
From now on I will change the oil depending on driving conditions as I feel pertinent. Very, very happy with this engine.
Have had one of each of the following: LS1, LS6, LS2 and this LS3. When comparing the LS1 and this LS3, there is a huge difference in metallic residue after the first few oil changes; the LS1 had so much more. That said, it ran like a bat out of hell.
Live and let live...
Last edited by Corvette V; 08-31-2011 at 08:35 PM.
09-01-2011, 07:30 AM
#24
Race Director
I don't need to prove anything to you. GM has said repeatedly over the past decade that the engines are already broken-in when you take delivery of the car. Break-in for the first 500 is for the tranny and rest of the drive line. First 200 for brakes and tires. Have a good day!!
09-01-2011, 08:12 AM
#25
I dont understand how all of you are following the dic message. Mine barely gets around 80/85% before it needs changing.
The oil may have life but theres crap in your car that you need to get out. CARBON!
Oil changes should be done right after a hard driving event, every 3 to 5k of slow daily driving/grocery getting, or every month (whichever is first).
If you do a little searching in your area, you should be able to get everything for the oil change for 30 to 35 bucks - a small price to pay for a clean engine that wont be throwing out pitch black oil when you hit 100k...
The oil may have life but theres crap in your car that you need to get out. CARBON!
Oil changes should be done right after a hard driving event, every 3 to 5k of slow daily driving/grocery getting, or every month (whichever is first).
If you do a little searching in your area, you should be able to get everything for the oil change for 30 to 35 bucks - a small price to pay for a clean engine that wont be throwing out pitch black oil when you hit 100k...
09-01-2011, 10:00 AM
#26
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When talking about Crate motor vs the motor in a newly bought car....
Um....having trouble following your own thoughts? lol (I highlighted important parts to help you)
I'm glad we both agree that their is no break-in necessary for the motors that come in these cars.
Have a good day!!
Originally Posted by FloydSummerOf68
Well one apparently needs break-in cycles and the other does not.
No - it's more like GM really really doesn't want to tell a new car owner that to be really safe with his new car and its new engine, change the oil/filter at 30 miles and again at 500 miles. Just saying. A crate engine buyer won't likely be upset with those instructions.
Originally Posted by FloydSummerOf68
Please show me ANYTHING to prove that what you just said isn't something you just made up and that there should be an involved break-in procedure for the motors that come in newly purchased Corvettes.
I don't need to prove anything to you. GM has said repeatedly over the past decade that the engines are already broken-in when you take delivery of the car. Break-in for the first 500 is for the tranny and rest of the drive line. First 200 for brakes and tires. Have a good day!!
I'm glad we both agree that their is no break-in necessary for the motors that come in these cars.
Have a good day!!
Last edited by FloydSummerOf68; 09-01-2011 at 10:06 AM.
09-01-2011, 12:03 PM
#27
Pro
One thing I hope we can all agree on is that all recommendations by the manufacturer not necessarily rooted in engineering. For instance, thinner oils don't protect better but they do improve fuel mileage slightly and help meet CAFE standards for the fleet. Same with low viscosity ATF.
While the DIC's are wonderful and do certainly consider many factors in oil life, it's also quite possible that the marketing department and the department responsible for EPA compliance also had a say. I can't say, but knowing how these large corporations work, I would estimate a near 100% chance that the calculations in the oil life monitor are not 100% based on engineering.
That being said, there's nothing wrong with listening to the computer, as long as you recognize it is just another estimate. The only real answer is oil analysis... it's the only way to know if you are changing the oil at an optimal time.
While the DIC's are wonderful and do certainly consider many factors in oil life, it's also quite possible that the marketing department and the department responsible for EPA compliance also had a say. I can't say, but knowing how these large corporations work, I would estimate a near 100% chance that the calculations in the oil life monitor are not 100% based on engineering.
That being said, there's nothing wrong with listening to the computer, as long as you recognize it is just another estimate. The only real answer is oil analysis... it's the only way to know if you are changing the oil at an optimal time.
09-01-2011, 03:21 PM
#28
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One thing I hope we can all agree on is that all recommendations by the manufacturer not necessarily rooted in engineering. For instance, thinner oils don't protect better but they do improve fuel mileage slightly and help meet CAFE standards for the fleet. Same with low viscosity ATF.
While the DIC's are wonderful and do certainly consider many factors in oil life, it's also quite possible that the marketing department and the department responsible for EPA compliance also had a say. I can't say, but knowing how these large corporations work, I would estimate a near 100% chance that the calculations in the oil life monitor are not 100% based on engineering.
That being said, there's nothing wrong with listening to the computer, as long as you recognize it is just another estimate. The only real answer is oil analysis... it's the only way to know if you are changing the oil at an optimal time.
While the DIC's are wonderful and do certainly consider many factors in oil life, it's also quite possible that the marketing department and the department responsible for EPA compliance also had a say. I can't say, but knowing how these large corporations work, I would estimate a near 100% chance that the calculations in the oil life monitor are not 100% based on engineering.
That being said, there's nothing wrong with listening to the computer, as long as you recognize it is just another estimate. The only real answer is oil analysis... it's the only way to know if you are changing the oil at an optimal time.
1. The results are a look at the past, not the present. Unless you withdraw a sample and wait for results before continuing to drive, it can't be optimal. I'd guess that virtually all who ever had their oil tested had already refilled and were driving the car again. A premature or overdue change would be the norm.
2. Understanding the results is something that only an expert can comprehend. You are at the mercy of both the accuracy of the test and the recommendations of the expert who does the diagnosis. They also have parameters that are generalized to match most circumstances, not one person's specific concerns.
3. In order to dial in the change frequency to match the recommendations of the test results, you'd need to always drive in the same manner under the same conditions on the same route without deviation.
4. The application of the results and recommendations are mileage based, not engine revolutions. 500 short 2 mile trips in stop and go traffic are far harder on oil than 1 trip at 70mph (1600 rpm) for 1000 miles.
I'm sure there are more issues, but you can quickly see the main problems.
While I believe there is value in oil analysis, the results of controlled testing is how the algorithm for the DIC was derived.
09-01-2011, 03:33 PM
#29
Team Owner
The problems inherent with using oil analysis to determine the optimal time for change are several.
1. The results are a look at the past, not the present. Unless you withdraw a sample and wait for results before continuing to drive, it can't be optimal. I'd guess that virtually all who ever had their oil tested had already refilled and were driving the car again. A premature or overdue change would be the norm.
2. Understanding the results is something that only an expert can comprehend. You are at the mercy of both the accuracy of the test and the recommendations of the expert who does the diagnosis. They also have parameters that are generalized to match most circumstances, not one person's specific concerns.
3. In order to dial in the change frequency to match the recommendations of the test results, you'd need to always drive in the same manner under the same conditions on the same route without deviation.
4. The application of the results and recommendations are mileage based, not engine revolutions. 500 short 2 mile trips in stop and go traffic are far harder on oil than 1 trip at 70mph (1600 rpm) for 1000 miles.
I'm sure there are more issues, but you can quickly see the main problems.
While I believe there is value in oil analysis, the results of controlled testing is how the algorithm for the DIC was derived.
1. The results are a look at the past, not the present. Unless you withdraw a sample and wait for results before continuing to drive, it can't be optimal. I'd guess that virtually all who ever had their oil tested had already refilled and were driving the car again. A premature or overdue change would be the norm.
2. Understanding the results is something that only an expert can comprehend. You are at the mercy of both the accuracy of the test and the recommendations of the expert who does the diagnosis. They also have parameters that are generalized to match most circumstances, not one person's specific concerns.
3. In order to dial in the change frequency to match the recommendations of the test results, you'd need to always drive in the same manner under the same conditions on the same route without deviation.
4. The application of the results and recommendations are mileage based, not engine revolutions. 500 short 2 mile trips in stop and go traffic are far harder on oil than 1 trip at 70mph (1600 rpm) for 1000 miles.
I'm sure there are more issues, but you can quickly see the main problems.
While I believe there is value in oil analysis, the results of controlled testing is how the algorithm for the DIC was derived.
09-01-2011, 03:41 PM
#30
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"While I believe there is value in oil analysis, the results of controlled testing is how the algorithm for the DIC was derived."
Kinda illogical to create engineering principles with uncontrolled testing, don't you think?
09-01-2011, 03:52 PM
#31
Pro
I answered that with the last sentence of that post.
"While I believe there is value in oil analysis, the results of controlled testing is how the algorithm for the DIC was derived."
Kinda illogical to create engineering principles with uncontrolled testing, don't you think?
"While I believe there is value in oil analysis, the results of controlled testing is how the algorithm for the DIC was derived."
Kinda illogical to create engineering principles with uncontrolled testing, don't you think?
Don't get me wrong, I like and use the DIC. But given that it is a guess, and a guess that was influenced by marketing and political input, it shouldn't be viewed as the absolute last word. It's a whole lot better than nothing though.
Last edited by sportcruiser; 09-01-2011 at 04:07 PM.
09-02-2011, 12:47 AM
#32
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Sure, but the point is, the DIC doesn't actually evaluate the oil and it doesn't even know what kind of oil is in the car. Instead, it assumes a certain oil with certain properties. It will tell you to change the oil at the exact same time whether it's the lowest quality or the highest quality oil, because it can't evaluate the actual oil. It's all fine and good, but it's just another educated guess.
Don't get me wrong, I like and use the DIC. But given that it is a guess, and a guess that was influenced by marketing and political input, it shouldn't be viewed as the absolute last word. It's a whole lot better than nothing though.
Don't get me wrong, I like and use the DIC. But given that it is a guess, and a guess that was influenced by marketing and political input, it shouldn't be viewed as the absolute last word. It's a whole lot better than nothing though.
I believe there was more influence to be conservative in their estimations to avoid warranty expenses, than any other single factor.
GM requested my presence for an adjustment (?) to correct the OLI on my '08 STS with a DI V-6 recently. The swapped out the ECU for one with a revised algorithm, due to early lubrication related failures in the valvetrain.
The DIC readout is the current leader to determine oil change frequency for the vast majority of the motoring public. It's not perfect, but it sure is better than what's in second place. We've come a long way from the 3,000 mile oil change and the 3 month/3,000 mile new car warranties in the early '50's.
Last edited by HOXXOH; 09-02-2011 at 12:58 AM. Reason: added info
09-02-2011, 09:08 AM
#33
Pro
I certainly agree that the DIC doesn't and can't evaluate the quality of the oil or the quantity of contaminants. That's why the user is specifically instructed in the owner's manual to use an oil that meets particular specifications and recommended to use a Delco filter. Those were the controlled parameters used to create the algorithm. If the user chooses to do otherwise, then GM can void that portion of the warranty.
I believe there was more influence to be conservative in their estimations to avoid warranty expenses, than any other single factor.
GM requested my presence for an adjustment (?) to correct the OLI on my '08 STS with a DI V-6 recently. The swapped out the ECU for one with a revised algorithm, due to early lubrication related failures in the valvetrain.
The DIC readout is the current leader to determine oil change frequency for the vast majority of the motoring public. It's not perfect, but it sure is better than what's in second place. We've come a long way from the 3,000 mile oil change and the 3 month/3,000 mile new car warranties in the early '50's.
I believe there was more influence to be conservative in their estimations to avoid warranty expenses, than any other single factor.
GM requested my presence for an adjustment (?) to correct the OLI on my '08 STS with a DI V-6 recently. The swapped out the ECU for one with a revised algorithm, due to early lubrication related failures in the valvetrain.
The DIC readout is the current leader to determine oil change frequency for the vast majority of the motoring public. It's not perfect, but it sure is better than what's in second place. We've come a long way from the 3,000 mile oil change and the 3 month/3,000 mile new car warranties in the early '50's.
