Why no Group Buy's on Headers
02-15-2011, 04:09 AM
#21
Former Vendor
I don't think it is sterotyping at all. It is very rare in retail where someone HONESTLY cross shops two products that do basically the same thing, but one costs 3x as much. I mean..who says..."Geez, should I get the Walmart $5 sunglasses, or $200 Oakleys". Or should I buy that new Chevy Cruze, or the Corvette". If you are not willing to spend at least $1000 on headers, you are not buying headers from me. And really the only reason to buy the ebay header would be that you don't want to spend the money the real thing costs. Ebay headers asside, your only other options if you did not want to spend at least $1000 would be used, or nothing at all.
Someone who is only willing to spend/ or can only afford say what a Chevy Cruze might cost may gripe that a Corvette costs too much. That does not mean that the Corvette lost a sale because some bought a Cruze. The customer never was seriously able to buy the Corvette either because they did not want to spend the money or by their financial limitations.
Someone who is only willing to spend/ or can only afford say what a Chevy Cruze might cost may gripe that a Corvette costs too much. That does not mean that the Corvette lost a sale because some bought a Cruze. The customer never was seriously able to buy the Corvette either because they did not want to spend the money or by their financial limitations.
Stereotyping your potential customers is not good. I have spent money on exhaust parts in the past years a couple times with you and have been very happy, but surprised you said this.
I completely understand and agree with most everything else you have said, but I strongly dissagree with the above. I have more than enough money to buy a set of 1500, or 5000 dollar headers. It's different strokes for different folks. You guys sell a great product, kooks. It's not for everybody. People want to spend their money in the best way that fits their situation.
I completely understand and agree with most everything else you have said, but I strongly dissagree with the above. I have more than enough money to buy a set of 1500, or 5000 dollar headers. It's different strokes for different folks. You guys sell a great product, kooks. It's not for everybody. People want to spend their money in the best way that fits their situation.
02-15-2011, 04:27 AM
#22
Le Mans Master
Your analogies between sunglasses/vehicles and headers are comical, at best. It was good doing business with you all in the past. I'll look elsewhere in the future. Thank you.
02-15-2011, 08:30 AM
#23
Melting Slicks
I don't think it is sterotyping at all. It is very rare in retail where someone HONESTLY cross shops two products that do basically the same thing, but one costs 3x as much. I mean..who says..."Geez, should I get the Walmart $5 sunglasses, or $200 Oakleys". Or should I buy that new Chevy Cruze, or the Corvette". If you are not willing to spend at least $1000 on headers, you are not buying headers from me. And really the only reason to buy the ebay header would be that you don't want to spend the money the real thing costs. Ebay headers asside, your only other options if you did not want to spend at least $1000 would be used, or nothing at all.
Someone who is only willing to spend/ or can only afford say what a Chevy Cruze might cost may gripe that a Corvette costs too much. That does not mean that the Corvette lost a sale because some bought a Cruze. The customer never was seriously able to buy the Corvette either because they did not want to spend the money or by their financial limitations.
Someone who is only willing to spend/ or can only afford say what a Chevy Cruze might cost may gripe that a Corvette costs too much. That does not mean that the Corvette lost a sale because some bought a Cruze. The customer never was seriously able to buy the Corvette either because they did not want to spend the money or by their financial limitations.
02-15-2011, 09:27 AM
#24
I run a pretty large business and I understand a P&L -- capital expense, depreciation, direct and indirect costs, etc.
It's not that I won't pay the money to buy "the real thing", I just know when I'm being gouged and I don't like it. IMHO there is no way the name brand headers cost anywhere near $1k to make -- all in. You do the math on the profit margins.
I'll gladly pay the price when the value received is appropriate.
I'm working on other things on my car right now, but when I'm ready for headers, I'm sure XS Power, Texas Speed, OBX or someone else will have the right product for me.
02-15-2011, 09:42 AM
#25
Racer
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St. Jude Donor '11
If you can't see the headers who cares where they came from?? I'm a person who just wants a good deal. I don't have to have headers at all and I'd still be happy. I'm not saying that you all should give them to us but I would think you'd sale more if they were at a lower price point. It's all subjective anyways, if knock offs do just as good as the real thing who cares (IMO).
Hahahaha it is always the same old story!!!
Hahahaha it is always the same old story!!!
Last edited by matt_lowry123; 02-15-2011 at 09:46 AM. Reason: Added to it
02-15-2011, 10:02 AM
#26
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My intention of this thread was only to find out why there were no companies who would step up and offer a G/B on brand name headers? Maryland Speed is the only one who came to this thread and tried to explain the process. I applaud him for his efforts. I can see his point on some things but as a paying customer, I still believe these headers can still be sold at a reasonable price.
I will be the first to acknowledge, I do not know the ins and outs of this business but there are numerous companies that offer G/B on all kind of items. I said it once and I’ll say it again, I WANT TO BUY AMERICAN MADE HEADERS BUT I DON’T WANT TO BE RAPED IN THE PROCESS.Last thing, there are 2 excellent companies that sell S/C on this forum (A&A and ECS). Each year their kits get better and better. How could a company that makes an excellent product sell them for an excellent price? How could their prices continue to go down but headers have stayed the same high a** price? Hell for the price of the name brand headers, install and tune will run you close to the price of a S/C kit!
I will be the first to acknowledge, I do not know the ins and outs of this business but there are numerous companies that offer G/B on all kind of items. I said it once and I’ll say it again, I WANT TO BUY AMERICAN MADE HEADERS BUT I DON’T WANT TO BE RAPED IN THE PROCESS.Last thing, there are 2 excellent companies that sell S/C on this forum (A&A and ECS). Each year their kits get better and better. How could a company that makes an excellent product sell them for an excellent price? How could their prices continue to go down but headers have stayed the same high a** price? Hell for the price of the name brand headers, install and tune will run you close to the price of a S/C kit!
Last edited by AtlPitbull; 02-15-2011 at 12:00 PM.
02-15-2011, 10:10 AM
#27
Yes, the great price was the regular price
02-15-2011, 10:19 AM
#28
Race Director
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I applaud your effort, but I was never optimistic you'd get a good response. In one of the previous threads, one of the big companies said "pm me for a great price!" I did and he sent me to one of his distributors. The "great price" was... wait for it... FREE SHIPPING!
Yes, the great price was the regular price
Yes, the great price was the regular price
02-15-2011, 10:23 AM
#29
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I applaud your effort, but I was never optimistic you'd get a good response. In one of the previous threads, one of the big companies said "pm me for a great price!" I did and he sent me to one of his distributors. The "great price" was... wait for it... FREE SHIPPING!
Yes, the great price was the regular price
Yes, the great price was the regular price
02-15-2011, 11:12 AM
#30
Former Vendor
Easy to see both sides of the "by Chinese vs American header" argument, especially for the people who do their own installation and can fabricate.
From my perspective I'd much rather sell and install an American made system. Here's the reasons..
1) Options -you can get a choice of primary tube size, cats v no cats, mid-pipe tube size.
2) The x-pipe to mid pipe to axle-back fit flawlessly, no fab time required.
3) Everything n one big box - no chasing down hardware
4) Warranty - real easy to get a hold of the American mfg's
Here's the savings potential, at least the way I see the two systems compared...
China Header Kit 500
Header Gaskets 35
High flow cats 200
O2 extensions 80
installation 500
fabrication 200
total 1515
American Header Kit 1495
installation 500
total 1995
My 2 cents worth on this, that's all.
From my perspective I'd much rather sell and install an American made system. Here's the reasons..
1) Options -you can get a choice of primary tube size, cats v no cats, mid-pipe tube size.
2) The x-pipe to mid pipe to axle-back fit flawlessly, no fab time required.
3) Everything n one big box - no chasing down hardware
4) Warranty - real easy to get a hold of the American mfg's
Here's the savings potential, at least the way I see the two systems compared...
China Header Kit 500
Header Gaskets 35
High flow cats 200
O2 extensions 80
installation 500
fabrication 200
total 1515
American Header Kit 1495
installation 500
total 1995
My 2 cents worth on this, that's all.
02-15-2011, 11:21 AM
#31
I think maryland speed just need to polish what he is trying to say.....you are very rough in your delivery..
Now I will say if you look at maryland speeds kooks package deal it's really good...
you get kooks headers
catted x
and vararam for for 1700 or 1800 for LS3/LS7
Thats like paying 1400 for the headers and catted x.....hell of a deal. Thats the way I am going....LG wanted 1650 for just the headers and catted x...thats with the PM sale price lol
I came from a 04 cobra so modding was cheap and easy....these vette are a bit pricey but, I drive a vette and you pay to play...
If i go to olive garden I expect bang for my buck....If I go to J. Alexanders I expect a lighter wallet...
Now I will say if you look at maryland speeds kooks package deal it's really good...
you get kooks headers
catted x
and vararam for for 1700 or 1800 for LS3/LS7
Thats like paying 1400 for the headers and catted x.....hell of a deal. Thats the way I am going....LG wanted 1650 for just the headers and catted x...thats with the PM sale price lol
I came from a 04 cobra so modding was cheap and easy....these vette are a bit pricey but, I drive a vette and you pay to play...
If i go to olive garden I expect bang for my buck....If I go to J. Alexanders I expect a lighter wallet...
Last edited by MikeSVT04; 02-15-2011 at 11:26 AM.
02-15-2011, 11:47 AM
#32
Racer
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Certain vendors can come in here and complain and rant all they want but it's pretty simple. We are not stupid. We want to buy American made headers but know that it does not nearly cost as much to make them as they are being sold for. I guess if you were to post a direct expense sheet with a detailed list of the manufacturing of your product and the price was indeed higher then you would shut me up for sure. However until I see something like that I am still going to think the prices are ridiculous. As for the point of this thread we are looking for a Group Buy on a set of headers from a top manufacturer at a reasonable price. And from the looks of it we have many people ready to buy so....... who's going to step up???
02-15-2011, 12:03 PM
#33
Melting Slicks
Easy to see both sides of the "by Chinese vs American header" argument, especially for the people who do their own installation and can fabricate.
From my perspective I'd much rather sell and install an American made system. Here's the reasons..
1) Options -you can get a choice of primary tube size, cats v no cats, mid-pipe tube size.
2) The x-pipe to mid pipe to axle-back fit flawlessly, no fab time required.
3) Everything n one big box - no chasing down hardware
4) Warranty - real easy to get a hold of the American mfg's
Here's the savings potential, at least the way I see the two systems compared...
China Header Kit 500
Header Gaskets 35
High flow cats 200
O2 extensions 80
installation 500
fabrication 200
total 1515
American Header Kit 1495
installation 500
total 1995
My 2 cents worth on this, that's all.
From my perspective I'd much rather sell and install an American made system. Here's the reasons..
1) Options -you can get a choice of primary tube size, cats v no cats, mid-pipe tube size.
2) The x-pipe to mid pipe to axle-back fit flawlessly, no fab time required.
3) Everything n one big box - no chasing down hardware
4) Warranty - real easy to get a hold of the American mfg's
Here's the savings potential, at least the way I see the two systems compared...
China Header Kit 500
Header Gaskets 35
High flow cats 200
O2 extensions 80
installation 500
fabrication 200
total 1515
American Header Kit 1495
installation 500
total 1995
My 2 cents worth on this, that's all.
02-15-2011, 12:04 PM
#34
Burning Brakes
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I don't think it is sterotyping at all. It is very rare in retail where someone HONESTLY cross shops two products that do basically the same thing, but one costs 3x as much. I mean..who says..."Geez, should I get the Walmart $5 sunglasses, or $200 Oakleys". Or should I buy that new Chevy Cruze, or the Corvette". If you are not willing to spend at least $1000 on headers, you are not buying headers from me. And really the only reason to buy the ebay header would be that you don't want to spend the money the real thing costs. Ebay headers asside, your only other options if you did not want to spend at least $1000 would be used, or nothing at all.
Someone who is only willing to spend/ or can only afford say what a Chevy Cruze might cost may gripe that a Corvette costs too much. That does not mean that the Corvette lost a sale because some bought a Cruze. The customer never was seriously able to buy the Corvette either because they did not want to spend the money or by their financial limitations.
Someone who is only willing to spend/ or can only afford say what a Chevy Cruze might cost may gripe that a Corvette costs too much. That does not mean that the Corvette lost a sale because some bought a Cruze. The customer never was seriously able to buy the Corvette either because they did not want to spend the money or by their financial limitations.
I have exactly $1000 to spend on headers. I have an 06 Z06. Step up.
02-15-2011, 12:10 PM
#36
Burning Brakes
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02-15-2011, 12:18 PM
#37
Le Mans Master
[QUOTE=MarylandSpeed;1576796184]You need to keep in mind..there is a certain price you need to sell parts for to run a profitable business. You are not gonna get Kooks for under $1000..it's that simple. It costs money to do business the way they do...especially the machinery and overhead. Much more than it does not knock off someone elses designs, make them at a contract manufactuer in China, and dump them here on ebay. I don't see any of the knock off header companies sponsoring forums or events. I don't see them coming out with different size and stepped headers, so there is a header for every need.
I don't argue about this because I am losing sales. I argue about this because I want customers to be educated, and know what is going on. There are no free rides, and these knock off headers are cheap for a reason. I actually have gained some sales because customers like that I take a stand on this stuff. I feel strongly about the subject, and I think it is wrong for forum members to openly support and promote a knock off of a sponsors products.
As for sales, Kooks as of right now is selling pretty much every C6 header they make...knock offs really have not meant anything sales wise, as we are still seeing growth in most markets. It would honestly be silly to just run a massive sale because there is plenty of demand for the supply they currently have.
All that tells me that people running the knock off stuff are not people who I would normally be selling headers to anyway. They are people who would rather save money more than paying a name brand product. I have guessed these people would have either not bought headers at all unless there was a $300 option, or they would have bought a used set of premium headers. They are not the people who would normally drop $1600 on headers anyway. I also think a very few could genuinly could afford nice headers, but feel like they are "sticking it to the man" and smarter than the next guy by buying a set of knock offs and saving money. Additionally, the people who run knock offs tend to be vocal and post a lot. I can sell 10 sets of Kooks and no one will every post about them on the forum. However 3 people will buy ebay headers and post 15 times in every header thread about how great they are promoting them.
The last thing to consider is that most Corvette customer run cats with their headers (9 out of 10). The knock offs don't offer cats, and for most people, it is easier to just spend the money on a decent set than fabbing something up.
A similar comparison for this situation would be shoes. You can buy Payless shoes for a 3rd the price of name brand shoes. Yet every time I go to the gym, or where ever I see people in name brand shoes. If you can't afford Nikes, or simply don't want to spend the money..buy payless by all means. However realize hating on Nike and acting like they are losing a sale is silly. You were not willing to spend the money their product cost anyway..so you never really were a potential customer.
Sorry man,but this sounds eerily similar to the Detroit automakers in the late 70's through the 80's telling us why we shouldn't be buying Japenese cars.
And we know what it cost them.
I don't argue about this because I am losing sales. I argue about this because I want customers to be educated, and know what is going on. There are no free rides, and these knock off headers are cheap for a reason. I actually have gained some sales because customers like that I take a stand on this stuff. I feel strongly about the subject, and I think it is wrong for forum members to openly support and promote a knock off of a sponsors products.
As for sales, Kooks as of right now is selling pretty much every C6 header they make...knock offs really have not meant anything sales wise, as we are still seeing growth in most markets. It would honestly be silly to just run a massive sale because there is plenty of demand for the supply they currently have.
All that tells me that people running the knock off stuff are not people who I would normally be selling headers to anyway. They are people who would rather save money more than paying a name brand product. I have guessed these people would have either not bought headers at all unless there was a $300 option, or they would have bought a used set of premium headers. They are not the people who would normally drop $1600 on headers anyway. I also think a very few could genuinly could afford nice headers, but feel like they are "sticking it to the man" and smarter than the next guy by buying a set of knock offs and saving money. Additionally, the people who run knock offs tend to be vocal and post a lot. I can sell 10 sets of Kooks and no one will every post about them on the forum. However 3 people will buy ebay headers and post 15 times in every header thread about how great they are promoting them.
The last thing to consider is that most Corvette customer run cats with their headers (9 out of 10). The knock offs don't offer cats, and for most people, it is easier to just spend the money on a decent set than fabbing something up.
A similar comparison for this situation would be shoes. You can buy Payless shoes for a 3rd the price of name brand shoes. Yet every time I go to the gym, or where ever I see people in name brand shoes. If you can't afford Nikes, or simply don't want to spend the money..buy payless by all means. However realize hating on Nike and acting like they are losing a sale is silly. You were not willing to spend the money their product cost anyway..so you never really were a potential customer.
Sorry man,but this sounds eerily similar to the Detroit automakers in the late 70's through the 80's telling us why we shouldn't be buying Japenese cars.
And we know what it cost them.
02-15-2011, 12:20 PM
#38
Instructor
Member Since: Aug 2006
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Another thing I don't get is why everyone acts like the header companies are sticking it to you all time, but people will pay similar money for axleback exhausts, and you don't see nearly the complaints. We have people fork over $1000 plus for a simple axleback because they want the Corsa sound, or they want the Borla sound. Yet a header/X-pipe that is marginably more expensive, but has a lot more work and craftsmanship put into it is insanely priced and ripping customers off? I have seen people even hook these $1000 systems up to $500 ebay headers. I don't get it.
I'm going to purchase Corsa Sports for my C6, and then I will be looking at adding headers; I'm looking at Kooks and LG long tubes with high-flow cats as the brands I'm interested in.Also, Arizona members, who in the Phoenix area will do a good install and tune for said headers? Come on in!
02-15-2011, 12:36 PM
#39
On your own website, you list headers for $1595, so not sure where $1495 comes from. Not sure if yours are ARH either -- no name listed.
Best I've found ARH for is $1,750 catted.
I appreciate your comparison... just believe the difference is bigger than you think.
02-15-2011, 12:42 PM
#40
Melting Slicks
[QUOTE=redzone;1576798989]
And if they dont offer us forum members better deals than the non forum member, why have them as forum vendors?
You need to keep in mind..there is a certain price you need to sell parts for to run a profitable business. You are not gonna get Kooks for under $1000..it's that simple. It costs money to do business the way they do...especially the machinery and overhead. Much more than it does not knock off someone elses designs, make them at a contract manufactuer in China, and dump them here on ebay. I don't see any of the knock off header companies sponsoring forums or events. I don't see them coming out with different size and stepped headers, so there is a header for every need.
I don't argue about this because I am losing sales. I argue about this because I want customers to be educated, and know what is going on. There are no free rides, and these knock off headers are cheap for a reason. I actually have gained some sales because customers like that I take a stand on this stuff. I feel strongly about the subject, and I think it is wrong for forum members to openly support and promote a knock off of a sponsors products.
As for sales, Kooks as of right now is selling pretty much every C6 header they make...knock offs really have not meant anything sales wise, as we are still seeing growth in most markets. It would honestly be silly to just run a massive sale because there is plenty of demand for the supply they currently have.
All that tells me that people running the knock off stuff are not people who I would normally be selling headers to anyway. They are people who would rather save money more than paying a name brand product. I have guessed these people would have either not bought headers at all unless there was a $300 option, or they would have bought a used set of premium headers. They are not the people who would normally drop $1600 on headers anyway. I also think a very few could genuinly could afford nice headers, but feel like they are "sticking it to the man" and smarter than the next guy by buying a set of knock offs and saving money. Additionally, the people who run knock offs tend to be vocal and post a lot. I can sell 10 sets of Kooks and no one will every post about them on the forum. However 3 people will buy ebay headers and post 15 times in every header thread about how great they are promoting them.
The last thing to consider is that most Corvette customer run cats with their headers (9 out of 10). The knock offs don't offer cats, and for most people, it is easier to just spend the money on a decent set than fabbing something up.
A similar comparison for this situation would be shoes. You can buy Payless shoes for a 3rd the price of name brand shoes. Yet every time I go to the gym, or where ever I see people in name brand shoes. If you can't afford Nikes, or simply don't want to spend the money..buy payless by all means. However realize hating on Nike and acting like they are losing a sale is silly. You were not willing to spend the money their product cost anyway..so you never really were a potential customer.
Sorry man,but this sounds eerily similar to the Detroit automakers in the late 70's through the 80's telling us why we shouldn't be buying Japenese cars.
And we know what it cost them.
I don't argue about this because I am losing sales. I argue about this because I want customers to be educated, and know what is going on. There are no free rides, and these knock off headers are cheap for a reason. I actually have gained some sales because customers like that I take a stand on this stuff. I feel strongly about the subject, and I think it is wrong for forum members to openly support and promote a knock off of a sponsors products.
As for sales, Kooks as of right now is selling pretty much every C6 header they make...knock offs really have not meant anything sales wise, as we are still seeing growth in most markets. It would honestly be silly to just run a massive sale because there is plenty of demand for the supply they currently have.
All that tells me that people running the knock off stuff are not people who I would normally be selling headers to anyway. They are people who would rather save money more than paying a name brand product. I have guessed these people would have either not bought headers at all unless there was a $300 option, or they would have bought a used set of premium headers. They are not the people who would normally drop $1600 on headers anyway. I also think a very few could genuinly could afford nice headers, but feel like they are "sticking it to the man" and smarter than the next guy by buying a set of knock offs and saving money. Additionally, the people who run knock offs tend to be vocal and post a lot. I can sell 10 sets of Kooks and no one will every post about them on the forum. However 3 people will buy ebay headers and post 15 times in every header thread about how great they are promoting them.
The last thing to consider is that most Corvette customer run cats with their headers (9 out of 10). The knock offs don't offer cats, and for most people, it is easier to just spend the money on a decent set than fabbing something up.
A similar comparison for this situation would be shoes. You can buy Payless shoes for a 3rd the price of name brand shoes. Yet every time I go to the gym, or where ever I see people in name brand shoes. If you can't afford Nikes, or simply don't want to spend the money..buy payless by all means. However realize hating on Nike and acting like they are losing a sale is silly. You were not willing to spend the money their product cost anyway..so you never really were a potential customer.
Sorry man,but this sounds eerily similar to the Detroit automakers in the late 70's through the 80's telling us why we shouldn't be buying Japenese cars.
And we know what it cost them.